F-16 sale to Pakistan hits roadblocks

The proposed sale of F-16's to Pakistan is facing sivere criticism in the American democratic system.

Check this :

The new batch of F-16 multi-role aircraft that the US proposes to sell Pakistan will be used against India, not Al-Qaeda, many US lawmakers have said while accusing the Bush Administration of "rushing through" the deal.

"This material is not being used against Al-Qaeda. It isn't. The potential is that it would be used in a war against India," Democratic Representative Frank Pallone, a strong supporter of India, said of the jets. The News, quoted Pallone as saying: "We don't need to reward Pakistan for being our friend in the war on terrorism by giving them advanced weapons systems that are not likely to be used in that effort."

Critics of the deal also said the jets were a reward to a country that provides moral support to terror groups fighting India. They have said that the Bush Administration has "glossed over" the non-proliferation aspect of the deal, since Pakistan's record on nuclear proliferation is well known and needs watching. "The $5.1 billion cutting edge arms package the administration is lining up will not only be useless in the war on terrorism or to hunt Osama bin Laden, but it will also come back to haunt both India and the US," said a statement issued by the US-India Political Action Committee, the Indian caucus on the hill.

link

Lawmakers accused the Bush administration Thursday of rushing a sale of F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan.
[..]
Some worry that the sale could compromise sensitive U.S. technology by exposing it to China, which has close military ties with Pakistan.

Critics also say the jets reward a country, Pakistan, that provides moral support to terrorist groups fighting India.

www.forbes.com...

More links :
F-16 sale to Pakistan draws bipartisan flak
US panel blasts Pak F-16 deal

Surely technology leakage to China is something serious and something worthy of consideration. Infact there are pleanty of indicators to suggest that Pakistan has illicitly leaked F-16 technology to China in the past. Going by the reputations of the two countries in illegal copying, reverse engineering, non-abidance of contractual agreements, proliferation activities there is no reason to believe that the same will not repeat again.

Here are some indicators suggesting illicit activities involving the F-16's that were sold to Pakistan earlier.

A USAF study reads :

...China received a single F-16 from Pakistan ...

www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil...

The J-10 could have benefited from U.S. technology in two ways. First, the Israeli LAVI was greatly influenced by access to General Dynamics F-16 technology. Israel passed on the knowledge of some of this technology, which may have included avionics, advanced composite materials, and flight control specification,27 to Chengdu. Fly-by-wire technology may have been shared as well. ....J-10 benefited from PLA access to Pakistan's F-16 fighters.

www.globalsecurity.org...


FAS says >>

..a single F-16 provided by Pakistan..

www.fas.org...

Asia Times says the same >> atimes.com...

Wiki's article reads :

In addition, the PLA has attempted to build an indigenous aerospace and military industry with its production of the J-10, which currently is in production. It reportedly contains technology supplied by Israel from its Lavi fighter program as well as technology reverse-engineered from an F-16 reportedly given to the PRC by Pakistan.

link

China has added several features that were directly reverse-engineered from a U.S.-made F-16 Falcon jet fighter provided to Beijing by Pakistan.

The Pakistani F-16, sold to Islamabad during the 1980s, was given to the PLAAF as part of a secret military trade deal between Pakistan and China. In return for the U.S.-made F-16 jet, Pakistan received a deep discount on the purchase of Chinese-made M-11 ballistic missiles.

link

Asia Week says >>

It borrows technology from the America's front-line F-16 fighter, believed to have been acquired via Pakistan

www.asiaweek.com...

Febuary 2005 issue of Kanwa says :

Pakistan loaned a single F-16 to China for technical evaluation,the aircraft give deep impression on pilot and engineers alike

www.centurychina.com...

Another ..

The 1992 sale of the 28 Falcons to Pakistan was canceled during the last days of the Bush Sr. administration because Islamabad had openly purchased weapons technology from China. The sudden appearance of Chinese nuclear-tipped M-11 ballistic missiles brought a swift embargo of U.S. arms sales on Pakistan, including the previously ordered F-16 Falcons.

link

A Pakistani Brigadior that confessed in an interview to Pakistan lending China one of its F-16's in exchange for a discount on M-11 missiles that Pak bought from China.

One Pakistani military officer, reportedly at one-star level, noted on April 18, 2002 : "China has added several features [to the FC-1/JF-17] that were directly reverse-engineered from a US-made F-16 Falcon jet fighter provided to Beijing by Pakistan. The Pakistani F-16, sold to Islamabad during the 1980s, was given to the PLAAF as part of a secret military trade deal between Pakistan and China. In return for the US-made F-16 jet, Pakistan received a deep discount on the purchase of Chinese-made M-11 ballistic missiles. The new Chinese J-10 supersonic fighter is designed to take on and defeat US-built F-16 and F-18 fighters that make up the bulk of American airpower."

link

The F-16's that the US is proposing to sell are of block-52 configuration and feature several high end technologies which China is yet to master and this sale could well play into the hands of China, which is pakistan's closest ally.

Stealth,
You have just got a way above top secret vote from me.

That was an excellent well crafted post which deserves a huge round of applause!

I just hope the US goverment actually watches ATS, because then they would read this and realise what arses they are being... But here is the rub....

Clinton supplied China with high tech equipment, and now Bush wants to do the same but this time via Pakistan?? Will they ever learn these greedy grasping politicians? This is the cutting edge that china lacks to make weapons of a seriouse threat to indian and regional airforces. I shudder at the thought of it actually.

The most hilarious part is that the so called experts in the administration are trying to convince the congress et all that the sale of F 16s to Pakistan is for fighting terror!!

That's the dumbest thing I've heard for a long time!! So what more would one require to screw poor old bearded Bin Laden apart from F 16s? Nukes and Space based weapon systems I guess!

Never knew that America is run by screwballs!! No wonder they're up Shi* Creek without a paddle!!


[edit on 22-7-2006 by mikesingh]

Considering how old the F-16 is and that it should be replaced by the F-35, by the time China does anything worthwhile, it will still be behind the US. I don't think much could be used by copying the F-16 that would give the J-10 a really big leap forward and pose a real threat, especially if they got so much from the Lavi program. A more practical outcome might be changes in construction methods to improve quality.
However, for the time being, a more threating aspect might be using the F-16 to evaluate techniques to combat it, to find it's weaknesses and exploit them.
That's what I would be concerned about.
But that's just me.

Considering the weapons package it could fulfill both purposes of fighting terrorist on its western boarder and an agressive india on its western boarder.

500 JDAMs
800 general purpose 2,000 and 500-pound bombs

These things are part of the arms PACKAGE and is rewarding pakistan in its help to fight terrorism. The only concern for the package is from the indians which does not waht the deal done since it has obvious concerns over the newer F-16s and the 500 Aim-120 missiles which is a great threat to indias airforce. The deal is most likey to go through and the MLU package might also provide some ground attack capabilties

The obvious advantage of the planes is its newer ground attack capabilties and its abilities to use JDAMs to accuratly hit any position in afganistan which is a useful capability if the USAF is unable to provide any help. The future of the pakistani airforce is through air defence planes like the FC-1 while the more sophiscated F-16 can be the bomb truck because of its superior multi-role capability and its ability to carry larger amounts.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also i want to clarify that there were claims and NOT proven

The SA-2, MiG-21, Type-59, Ak-47, 035 romeo submarine were all paid for in HARD cash according to the Sino-Soviet Treaty of Friendship, Alliance, and Mutual Assistance, the 1957 Sino-Soviet Agreement on New Technologies for National Defense. Chin got the blueprints and machine tools from the soviets themselves and though the years has evolved the design

Here is a discription on the J-7 development in china

By 1961 Soviets licensed the manufacture of the MiG-21F or J-7 with the engine to China. However in this period ties between the USSR and the PRC cooled considerably and the Mig-21 license manufacture deal collapsed. The PRC side accused the Soviets of deliberately supplying poor quality designs and equipment. The PRC aviation team had to completely redo the design work for the J-7 and at the same time they had to build their version of the RF-11F300 engine, now called the WP-7 (Wopen-7) on their own. The first J-7 with Chinese reverse engineered components was produced in 1964. It was first tested on January 17th 1966. However the well laid plans by PRC aviation planners to manufacture large numbers of J-7 fighters were frustrated due to the Cultural Revolution.

Yefim Gordon and Bill Gunston, “Mig 21 Fishbed”, AeroFax publishers 1996, Chapter 11 . Quoted from BR.

As you can read yourself, the MiG-21 was licensed to china and was suppiled with machine equipment and blue prints. When china was building the plane through soviet parts they found its performace unsatifactory and was forced to redesign a good deal of the parts to improve performace. One of the reasons why the J-6 was in perduction for so long was because the MiG-21 aircraft being suppiled by the soviets were complete dubs.

The other equipment were provided in the 50s and early 60s under a treaty signed in '50. The Soviet union gave china the license to build the T-54A and built a manufracturing factory so china could produce tanks for the greater good of the revolution

Although you have provided a lot of google searchs none of them EVER provides proof except for a mention about a vague account from a "pakistani" officer or their theories why. And the fact that no mention of the reverse engineered equipment shows up leds to doubt about their claims. Noting that, there has only been claims made of this (which have been denied) and has never been substanited by a reason let alone proof

non-abidance of contractual agreements

There were no contracts to production. Both countries were communist systems and the soviets saw the chinese as another army in its greater struggle for world revolution. Other countries like india didn't have such a connection and was charge large amounts for production rights. Apart from that, the soviets broke their own treaty they signed with china. There was no limit to the amount of planes built because china wasn't building off kits suppiled by russia but building its own parts with a soviet suppiled factory. And the facts that the designs changed and evolve into a different aircraft meant that any contract was thus nulled out

While the information your reading or get your opinoins from are sources which just quote the lavi wingspan and weight size and everything they base it on outdated or inccorect information. Because as you know they match to the T. I thought you might have thought that they might be incorrect since these are different designs and clearly the J-10 is bigger while still having the same specs displayed in almost all websites. From pictures we can determine that the J-10 is larger and also heavier than the lavi.

From pictures from the internet, we can see that the J-10 is a lot larger than the lavi and the AL-31 compared to the F-100 is about the same ratio. The J-10 would be at least 1-2 meters longer than the LAVI

And for fuel load. The lavi and J-10 and many other fighters make up for the little internal fuel load by the dispensable external load. If you had a large internal load, you'll reach the battle with a empty tank whilst with drop tanks you can dispose of them and come in with a clean confriguration. Benifits are obvious like smaller design more compact. and leaves you without the empty space when your in WVR or BVR.

One big person eats his food straight away while one other person carries his food with him. It was a design choice which to me making more sense than trying to make your plane bigger for your fuel

A comparison between the J-9 J-10 and the lavi. The J-9 was also designed by institute 611 aka Chengdu which also designed the canard fighter we know as the J-10. A competitor to the J-8 and was cancelled sometime in 1980-1981. And a few years later the J-10 project was born. coincidence?. While there is no doubt that the lavi did influence the J-10 design, where was the J-9 in all of this, which did make it to the mock up stage and having been designed by chengdu.

From offical israeli denials they stated they did help china with the project but only with technology and never with design. I think mostly in the fields of avonics while the russian supposely helped with the radar which is debatbul and the only instance of russian help thus far is for the engines which has a replacment in waiting if need be.

David Lari, director general of Israel's Ministry of Defense, acknowledged in an Associated Press interview that "some technology on aircraft" had been sold to China and that some Israeli companies may not have "clean hands".

Atimes

In the late 1980s, at least 20 engineers from Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) were part of the fighter's design team at Chengdu."

"IAI also helped with windtunnel testing in the early design stage. The Israeli presence has been scaled down in the last three years"

Flight's 1994 disclosure of the Israeli J-10 connection

20 engineers out of a project which had 1500 engineers. And with these engineers they would have been almost exclusively on the avonics like FBW system which was the main trouble of the J-10 project and with the J-6 testbed having trouble with the system so the israelis being consulted.

Here is what a british engineer which worked on the lavi project had to say

I just happened to come across this forum by chance, but you may be interested to know that I was one of the design engineers working on the Lavi project in 1983 thru 1986. I am not Israeli, I am a British aerospace structural designer, and there were nothing like 1,500 engineers on the project. There were about 500 in total, mostly British, with very few Israelis.

The Israelis mostly headed up groups, but relied heavily on British and American design expertise. Since the Lavi was cancelled some time ago, and most Israelis were made redundant, I cannot see how China would need any input from Israel.

From Key forum Aviation. member goof
Key forum aviation

Theres very little information on the actual project on the internet but thats some good confirmation and information from a first hand source. From all these accounts we can figure out that the israelies were only a small part of the actual project and any help they gave china was through avonics since that was a major area where they lacked in. During that time the plane was actually being designed for the WS-10A engine which had been developed in conjection with the new fighter and looked a lot different from what it now looks likes thanks to the russian AL-31 engine which had to be used because the WS-10A project was slowed down

Here is the FIRST J-10 model in 1984 which looks nothing like a lavi except for a similar F-16 like tail section.


As we can see from the picture the J-10 did not start off as a chinese LAVI but started off as a continuation of the J-9 project dated from a similar era. The varible cone intake was changed for a hanging rectangular intake which was properly due to the fact that the AL-31 demanded a large airflow and the tail section has been changed dramatically. The wings have also been modifed for possible increased manuverbilty. Combined with the fact that the FIRST model does not look like a LAVI discredits the people which say the J-10 started off as a LAVI. Similar roles lead to similar confrigurations

Here is a comparision between the three planes


Thanks to ImageShack for Free Image Hosting


[edit on 22-7-2006 by chinawhite]

Most of the mis-representation of the J-10 was done when there was no J-10 pictures ever released. The fire glimise of the J-10 was in late 2003 and the best pictures we have now are from 2004

Here are a few of them from globalsecruity.com. Most of them were actually LAVI planes but with chinese markings. So the reason why there are so many credible sources with fake pictures. Most of them are artist impressions of the planes and the real J-10 doesn't look like any of them, except for a similar layout of the wings

Here is an article from a NON-INIDAN source, which should show a contrast between INIDAN worries and reality and the actual needs of the pakistani airforce. Its only natural to try and deny a enemy weapons and throw arguments up

US official defends F-16 deal

WASHINGTON, July 21: Pakistan is likely to get congressional approval for the proposed $5.1 billion arms package, including F-16 aircraft, despite the battering it received at a panel hearing on the deal.

The 18-member House of Representatives International Relations Committee also mauled the Bush administration for failing to give Congress enough time to review the proposal.

But the administration’s strategy, coupled with a strong defence of its decision to sell the aircraft to Pakistan, worked.

Dawn.com

US to push F-16 sale to Pakistan despite Indian concerns

Washington - The Bush administration plans to push ahead with the proposed sale of F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan despite Indian concerns over its largest $5.1 billion arms package deal with Islamabad.

‘Our sale is based on what we think are legitimate needs of Pakistan for defensive purposes. And we proceed on that basis, not on the basis of what other people think or don’t think about it,’ Richard Boucher, assistant secretary Of state for south and central Asian affairs told reporters at a briefing for the foreign media.

Washington had not heard anything from the Indian government about the F-16 deal, he said. ‘That’s up to the Indian government, if you want to ask them their attitude, go ahead.’

India eNews

what the ?

Why are you posting stuff about the J-7 and the Lavi ??? are you sure you are posting in the right forum ????

Considering the weapons package it could fulfill both purposes of fighting terrorist on its western boarder and an agressive india on its western boarder.

500 JDAMs
800 general purpose 2,000 and 500-pound bombs

That is the most riddiculous thing i have heard. To fight terror in pakistan's own territory, none of that is even minutely required.

[edit on 22/7/06 by Stealth Spy]

Originally posted by chinawhite
Here is an article from a NON-INIDAN source, which should show a contrast between INIDAN worries and reality and the actual needs of the pakistani airforce. Its only natural to try and deny a enemy weapons and throw arguments

two out of my four sources are not Indian. The last time i checked neither forbes.com nor St.Pertesburg Times were in now way Indian.

Considering that your earlier post was waaay off the topic, i dont blame you for making insane comments like this one.

And in case you did not know, the Dawn.com source that you have used is a Pakistani newspaper's online version. Care to tell me why your own argument that "Its only natural to try and deny a enemy" will not apply here ???

Here is Fox news for you >> www.foxnews.com...
www.foxnews.com...

And the Times of Malta >>
www.timesofmalta.com...

Sky Valley Journal, USA >>
www.localnewswatch.com...

Ottawa Recorder, Canada >>
www.newsone.ca...



And pray you tell me if these are news sources Indian as well ?

[edit on 22/7/06 by Stealth Spy]

Originally posted by chinawhite
Considering the weapons package it could fulfill both purposes of fighting terrorist on its western boarder and an agressive india on its western boarder.

500 JDAMs
800 general purpose 2,000 and 500-pound bombs

These things are part of the arms PACKAGE and is rewarding pakistan in its help to fight terrorism. The only concern for the package is from the indians which does not waht the deal done since it has obvious concerns over the newer F-16s and the 500 Aim-120 missiles which is a great threat to indias airforce.

Yeah but the reason fro providing such weapons was to fight terrorists, not India. If they HADN'T included the BVR AMRAAMS which obviously serve NO purpose whatsoever in fighting terrorists, then the tagline would've still towed. But this is preposterous.Maybe the US hope to get a early look at the J-10 via Pakistan. Who knows?
They can work this channel to their advantage too, and I'm sure Pakistan will be all to happy to comply.


An Aggressive India? I wish!!

[edit on 22-7-2006 by Daedalus3]

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
Why are you posting stuff about the J-7 and the Lavi ??? are you sure you are posting in the right forum ????

From your reputation, it was obvioius what you were trying to do with the F-16 and copied nonsense

Quote from yourself
""Going by the reputations of the two countries in illegal copying, reverse engineering, non-abidance of contractual agreements"""

And if you wont refering to the MiG-21 or J-10, which other systems could you be possibliy refering to......... If i could be bothered, i would debuke every thread you made beforehand.

Also the links you provided for that dont work, which shows you googled them up. instead of actually knowing the sites

That is the most riddiculous thing i have heard. To fight terror in pakistan's own territory, none of that is even minutely required.

The fight againest terroism isn't in its own terrority but in afganistan to. They do ahve their troops lining the afgan boarder

How do you suggest they fight terrorist in remote, harsh landscapes?. A sweep though the country which will not work. What the US has done is to lanuch a strike with either aircraft or tomahawks when they see a terrorist or terrorist camp. I see the equipment pakistan is getting as a plan to emulate what the US has done.

As proof of this the examples of vietnam, kashmir and the soviet invasion of afganistan spring to mind instantly. With massive sweep campaigns and patrols they still have not been as sucessful as what the US has done in afganistan.

two out of my four sources are not Indian

I was refering to your first source which clearly highlights your contention on the deal with pakistan. Coming from a indian source will show bias in the deal. Fears of a pakstani threat and the F-16s will maximise their capbilties againest india. The second article from forbes highlights your own prespective on the issue which you googled but some vague articles to represent it with

Your other two links were no more than a couple of lines stating absolutly nothing. One of them is almost a shorter carbon copy of the forbes one

Dawn.com source that you have used is a Pakistani newspaper's online version. Care to tell me why your own argument that "Its only natural to try and deny a enemy" will not apply here ???

Exactly my point. The reason i used Dawn.com was because it was pakistani and was there to show contrast between what was reported. In india its black, in pakistan its white etc. You provided you side, i have provided my side. Although Dawn.com is pakistani it still is creditble and msotly unbias

The US administration seem to have finally looked at the technology leakage risks involved with such as sale and put in appropriate measures to prevent the same. Check this out :

No F-16s to Pakistan without security vow - Rice

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Pakistan must provide written security assurances as part of a deal for $5.1 billion in American-made F-16 fighter jets and no equipment will be transferred until anti-diversion protections are in place, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has promised Congress.

.. Rice said in a letter obtained by Reuters on Wednesday that before the first aircraft is delivered, Pakistan will sign a document that details Islamabad's security commitments.

In addition, "no aircraft or munitions will be delivered until U.S. officials have determined that all security measures are in place" and Congress has been briefed on those procedures, she said. "There should be no ambiguity regarding Pakistan's obligations in the security realm," the senators told Rice.

Some lawmakers have expressed concerns about Pakistan's past nuclear proliferation record, citing fears technology used in the Lockheed Martin Corp F-16s could be leaked to China, Pakistan's close military ally, and by extension help Chinese arms customers like Iran and Iran's clients in the Middle East, including Hizbollah, which is now fighting Israel.

Reuters (not an Indian source)

Pakistan to get downgraded F-16's
Check out the following statement by the US State Department official:

I would note, Mr. Rohrabacher, that in our structure of the sale, I referred to before a set of documents never before shared in an arms notification process, between the executive branch and Congress, that I made the decision to share.

And it enumerated the technologies were not, that would usually go with an F-16, that are not part of this deal. And they include ones that would allow the F-16 to be used in offensive ways to penetrate airspace of another country that was highly defended. So, I think that's worth noting.

Source : boss.streamos.com...

So as stated the F-16's headed for Pakistan (and China )are of reduced capability and have been downgraded.

some more details on the security measures for new F-16 headed to Pak. According to testimony by US Assistant Secretary of State for Political Military Affairs John F Hillen to the House International Relations Committee :

• US government has done a “security site survey” of Pak bases and facilities, drawn up security plans of these sites where the F-16s will be located and it has been put in the deal that Pakistan will comply with the ‘‘approved security plans’’.

• US presence to ‘‘monitor compliance’’ with the security plan and a ‘‘very enhanced end-use monitoring programme’’.

• Two-man rule for access to equipment and restricted areas, wherein Pakistan cannot use these F-16s in exercises and operations with third countries without prior approval of the US.

• The planes are not equipped with technology that would allow them to carry out offensive action to penetrate airspace of another country that is ‘‘highly defended’’. They cannot deliver nuclear weapons.

• F-16 maintenance and parts storage has to be in dedicated facilities run by Air Force personnel—and not sub-contractors—which are part of the ‘‘overall surveillance plan.’’

• No supply of the aircraft unless US finds Pakistan ‘‘fully compliant’’ with the security plan requirements.

• Routine access to F-16 aircraft also restricted to Pakistan Air Force personnel pre-approved by the US. And only the PAF can perform maintenance, no Pakistan contractors, industry or third countries to be involved.

“The security plan greatly exceeds US Air Force standards for our own security of these weapons systems,’’ Hillen said while urging the House panel to approve the sale. Even this did not fully convince the members as Hillen then went on to say there was more which he would discuss in detail in a ‘‘closed session’’.

So the US has finally put in necessary beancounters, etc to check tech leakage to China, which Pakistan is notorious for. A praiseworthy move indeed.

11th-hour try to block US F-16 sale to Pakistan

WASHINGTON, July 27 (Reuters) - A handful of U.S. lawmakers have launched an 11th-hour attempt to block the sale of U.S.-made F-16 fighter aircraft to Pakistan but have garnered little immediate support.

Massachusetts Democrat Rep. Ed Markey, co-chair of a bipartisan task force on curbing the spread of nuclear arms, acted just before the end of a 30-day window, during which Congress has statutory power to block the proposed arms sale.

Israel Klein, a Markey spokesman, said: "We believe there's still an opportunity for Congress to weigh in and block the sale."

New York Democrat Rep. Gary Ackerman, co-chair of a congressional caucus on India, has also introduced legislation to prohibit the F-16 sale. He said in a statement he feared technology leakage to China among other risks. Ackerman has collected five co-sponsors -- four Democrats and Republican Rep. Tom Tancredo of Colorado, said Jordan Goldes, an Ackerman spokesman.

www.alertnet.org...

I dunno about the names and the politics, but surely there appears mulit-pronged efforts to thwart the sale of F-16's to pakistan.

The list of precautions seem like standard procedure???. But no doubt posted from a inidan site Forgot your source?

A) Must be serviced by PAF personal seem like a no brainer to me
B) Ask for approval to use in foriegn wargames

Let me ask a question to people looking at this thread. What items on the F-16 Block 52 does china actually need?. The russians are willing to supply china all nessary weaponary. The french and germans are still activly trying to lift the arms embargo on china and is still selling china weaponary though "dual use" purposes.


A list of things the Block 52 has

- Aircraft composite materials
- Engine
- Radar
- ECM
- missiles?
- HUD

All these things above have already been developed by china and has already been fielded on a chinese plane J-10. Not to forget the fact that the J-10 would be incompatible with all the above equipment, it would takes years to fit comparable equipment onto a plane with its full weapons suite already. There were reports that france was offering the rafale in '04 which make sense considering the statements from Jacques Chirac about lifting the arms embargo the same year. Surely the rafale weapon suite is much more superior than the Block 52 in terms of ECM and HUD.

The russians also have been trying to sell china their Zhuk-MS PESA or AESA according to different reports. I dont see why china would opt to "copy" a inferior radar with only comparable performace to thier own radar

Missile wise, china has a large choice, PL-12, PL-11,R-77, R-27. Re-confirgure all the planes to use a different missile with comparable performance

---------------------------------------

One of the main reasons for this precaution is because of the possible sale of Block 52 planes to taiwan which is in the same bracket as the ones the pakistanis will be getting. The US has already figured out why it should better arm taiwan because it wants to contain china

but surely there appears mulit-pronged efforts to thwart the sale of F-16's to pakistan.

There from the same people/group. Thats what you do when your a polictican and dont like what your seeing. There are groups which dont want to see weaponary exporter, full stop

Reuters (not an Indian source)

How come it says reuters india and is linked to a indian domain???. And why is the news almost exculsively indian???.


[edit on 28-7-2006 by chinawhite]

Originally posted by chinawhite
The list of precautions seem like standard procedure???.

Yup standard procedures Great work "denying ignorance".

A) Must be serviced by PAF personal seem like a no brainer to me
B) Ask for approval to use in foriegn wargames

Yup, great reading & understanding of the text.

no doubt posted from a inidan site Forgot your source? www.indianexpress.com...

Yup, the "US Assistant Secretary of State for Political Military Affairs John F Hillen" must be an Indian citizen; and the "House International Relations Committee" is also in India.

You certianly exude the spirit of "denying ingorance" from every pore.

Let me ask a question to people looking at this thread. What items on the F-16 Block 52 does china actually need?. The russians are willing to supply china all nessary weaponary.

And china is willing to supply Pakistan all nessary weaponary. And they still want only US made stuff. Could you use your superior skills to explain ?

A list of things the Block 52 has
- Aircraft composite materials
- Engine
- Radar
- ECM
- missiles?
- HUD
All these things above have already been developed by china

A list of things the Mig-21 bis has
- Aircraft composite materials
- Engine
- Radar
- ECM
- missiles?
- HUD

A list of things the Eurofighter has
- Aircraft composite materials
- Engine
- Radar
- ECM
- missiles?
- HUD

So, Mig-21 bis = Eurofighter.

There were reports that france was offering the rafale in '04 which make sense considering the statements from Jacques Chirac about lifting the arms embargo the same year. Surely the rafale weapon suite is much more superior than the Block 52 in terms of ECM and HUD.

Yup. china has its posession, hundreds of Rafales. Additionally France passed on all of the Rafales technology.

The russians also have been trying to sell china their Zhuk-MS PESA or AESA according to different reports.

Yup. Zhuk-MS would fit into the nosecones of all of China's airplanes.

Missile wise, china has a large choice, PL-12, PL-11,R-77, R-27. Re-confirgure all the planes to use a different missile with comparable performance

I am sorry, but with my limited intellect, i am unable to comprehend your statement (highlighted). Please do substantiate.

One of the main reasons for this precaution is because of the possible sale of Block 52 planes to taiwan which is in the same bracket as the ones the pakistanis will be getting. The US has already figured out why it should better arm taiwan because it wants to contain china.

Sorry but with my limited intellect, i cannot compute and decode your encrypted messages. Could you please explain what F-16 sales to Taiwan has anything to do with Pakistan ?

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
Yup standard procedures

Great work "denying ignorance".

Sounds logical to me

- F-16 maintenance and parts storage has to be in dedicated facilities run by Air Force personnel
- Routine access to F-16 aircraft also restricted to Pakistan Air Force personnel pre-approved by the US. And only the PAF can perform maintenance, no Pakistan contractors, industry or third countries to be involved.

Yup, the "US Assistant Secretary of State for Political Military Affairs John F Hillen" must be an Indian citizen; and the "House International Relations Committee" is also in India.

Of course the comments will be americans, they are the ones approving the deal. If you can understand basic speech it refered to the fact that it was the indian media which is reporting every little detail thats happen

duhhh.......

And china is willing to supply Pakistan all nessary weaponary. And they still want only US made stuff.

Unless all that propaganda you made before about china and pakistani nukes, i think it covers EVERYTHING. And they only want US products even though they delined a larger batch of F-16 being offered?

So, Mig-21 bis = Eurofighter.

...

Does everything need to be explained to you?. Ignorance is Bliss

Additionally France passed on all of the Rafales technology.

Ignorance is only usefully for one reply. That means if you are so ignorant, stop the replies. You were the person trumpetting the fact that china was considering the rafale in the first place. Unless you, yourself cannot detect sarcasim being employed agaienst you, we are you using it as though it means something

Yup. Zhuk-MS would fit into the nosecones of all of China's airplanes.

No, but it'll fit on a large 700mm+ J-10, J-11 or J-12.

It has nothing to do with which fighters. Its about aquiring technology so you can see how it functions

Could you please explain what F-16 sales to Taiwan has anything to do with Pakistan ?

Because of the risk in giving F-16 to pakistan for military exercises with china since america is selling the Block 52 to taiwan as well

This list all the equipment part of the F-16 deal to pakistan.

Source

Originally posted by Stealth Spy


A list of things the Mig-21 bis has
- Aircraft composite materials
- Engine
- Radar
- ECM
- missiles?
- HUD

A list of things the Eurofighter has
- Aircraft composite materials
- Engine
- Radar
- ECM
- missiles?
- HUD

So, Mig-21 bis = Eurofighter.

Well i think it was obvious he was talking about J-10 vs F-16 rather then MiG-21 vs F-16 if you read his post.

It makes perfect sense that China does not need any technology from Pakistan from the F-16.

Another flaw in your comparason is that the "Bis" is an upgrade for the Mig-21 while the J-10 was actually built that way using the latest technology from the very begining of it's design.

The J-10 is a completely brand new air frame using all the latest technology they could develop or buy from there own companies or buy from Russia it is comparable to the latest versions of the F-16 if not slightly better then the F-16.

Pakistan themselves where talking about getting the J-10 but i think they went for the F-16 instead not becuase it's better but becuase it's something they can get now rather then wait for a few years until the J-10 is ready for sale.


[edit on 13-8-2006 by iqonx]

Originally posted by iqonx

It makes perfect sense that China does not need any technology from Pakistan from the F-16.

[edit on 13-8-2006 by iqonx]

You'd be willing to bet your life on that?
I'd be willing to bet mine that they would, and they will try to get it. Not just in tech terms, but in terms of gauging the blk 50 as a foe to the J-10.

New news....it is clear that the US administration does not think on the same naive lines as two posters do on this thread. The security plan for the F-16 is abnormally stringent. Check this

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Pakistan appears close to signing a potential $5 billion deal for an advanced F-16 fighter-jet package.

But Washington has demanded what it calls unprecedented steps to safeguard the advanced F-16C/D models, their spare parts and munitions from third parties -- especially China, which has closed military ties to Pakistan.

[..] Pakistan would get a fighter said by Washington to be stripped of a cutting-edge offensive capability.

The initial security plan for the F-16s was presented to Congress on July 20 by John Hillen, the assistant secretary of state for political-military affairs, who described it as "extraordinary" and "unprecedented." In testimony to the House of Representatives' International Relations Committee, Hillen highlighted segregation of the aircraft from third country-origin aircraft and munitions, semi-annual F-16 inventories and more frequent looks at associated systems by U.S. personnel.

Still, the House panel's top Republican and Democrat demanded even more U.S. monitoring and oversight. Rep. Tom Lantos, the top Democrat, said he supported the sale, but was worried about technology security in a country "that produced the A.Q Khan nuclear network." Khan is a Pakistani scientist who confessed in 2004 to dodging international safeguards to smuggle banned nuclear wares to North Korea and Iran among others.

Hillen, in his testimony, disclosed the United States was withholding unspecified technologies "that would usually go with an F16," including ones that would let it "be used in offensive ways to penetrate air space of another country that was highly defended."

In addition, F-16 flights outside of Pakistan, including exercises with others, "must be approved in advance by the U.S. government," he said.

Link

If these are "standard procedures" as the wisest oracle of them all claims, then i have nothing to say.