Was God testing or tempting?

This has been rattling in my brain for a while now:
Quote:
1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Unquote


It seems obvious by the above Bible statements that God created everything, so one can safely assume that when He created Adam & Eve, He also created the Tree of Knowledge and the Serpent that happened to be nearby. (Who else would have created them?)

God points Adam and Eve the Tree of Knowledge and tells them not to eat of its fruits.
If I tell a child that he must not “touch the box” on the table, I know that as soon as I leave the room, he will open the box.
I know this, you know this, God must have known it too! For good measure He also knows that the Serpent is lurking around and will finish the job.
God does not warn them against the serpent, although they are not equipped with any malice been without the understanding of good and evil.

Do you call that tempting or testing?
What kind of testing is it when all the odds are against them?

Are you trying to find this answer for yourself or are you tempting/testing us to see if you can start a debate?


Can you further state the difference between tempting and testing in God's mind of minds? Are you saying that God tested them to see if they would make the "right" choice or tempted them to see if they were truly evil or something? What exactly do you mean?

Either way, God already knows the outcome to his great story and plan. We just get to read about it after the fact.

Originally posted by ben91069
Are you trying to find this answer for yourself or are you tempting/testing us to see if you can start a debate?


Can you further state the difference between tempting and testing in God's mind of minds? Are you saying that God tested them to see if they would make the "right" choice or tempted them to see if they were truly evil or something? What exactly do you mean?

Either way, God already knows the outcome to his great story and plan. We just get to read about it after the fact.

Absolutely right, sorry, I did not make myself clear; it is just that whenever I have asked the fairly common question : If God knew the end result why go thru' with the whole Adam and Eve scenario?; the answer has always been that He was testing them.

I hope this makes it a little clearer.

Sure thing Osbert. And, by the way, welcome to ATS/BTS. You will find many people you like and hate here, but hopefully you find to love every one of us.

I wasn't trying to be sarcastic, but really to just clarify your meaning between tempting and testing. Do not follow anything I tell you without discernment, but test everything according to your faith.

Many people have brought up the Genesis story of Adam and Eve on this forum and the whole concept of free-will versus destiny.

This is mainly why I questioned temptation/testing, because it wasn't real clear if this is what you were implying; that God either tempts or tests. To me, unless something otherwise clarifies this for me, they seem to be almost the same.

It seems that you fall into that category of people who asks, "Why put people to the test if you know the outcome?"

I have a lot of to say about this, but it isn't necessary to discuss right now. I think it would be best for a starter to just ask why an earthly father tests his children in much the same way. People test people all the time with remarks and circumstances even though they already know what the conclusion is. This is not much different in that the lesson learned is not for the one who tests, but for the ones subject to being under the temptation.

Simply put, God indeed knew the outcome before he even created, but like a child, we must be tempted and tested to learn. God does not do this in the dark, but it is all predestined to provide the outcome he has planned for the benefit of his recipients.

Originally posted by ben91069
Simply put, God indeed knew the outcome before he even created, but like a child, we must be tempted and tested to learn. God does not do this in the dark, but it is all predestined to provide the outcome he has planned for the benefit of his recipients.

Thanks for your reply, I was infact half expecting somebody to say He was neither testing nor tempting, He was teaching.. but if I can be opinionated I will say that I am not very satisfied with the outcome "He has planned". Look at the state of the planet today! And with regards to learning, isn't that something that one does in any case during the process of growing and living?
Priests of all religions have good lessons to teach, what makes this one special or more genuine?
Are you truly happy with the predestined outcome thus far? Do you know something I don't or it it just faith?

Hopefully I don't come off as preaching here, but you hit on something that my religion (I'm a Mormon) explains fairly well. Whether you believe the explanation is something else entirely, but it makes sense to me, anyway.

In my faith, everything you said is true. God created Adam, Eve, the Tree, and the serpent. And He knew what was going to happen, i.e. that they would eat the fruit because of the serpent telling them to. So God worked this into His plans, leading to the serpent unwittingly helping Him. God also gave another commandment in Genesis (actually he gave it twice to them in the chapter) in Gen 1:22 and 1:28, where Adam and Eve were told to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth, which sounds a lot like having kids to me.

Before eating the fruit, Adam and Eve were wandering around naked in the Garden of Eden, and I don't think they had any knowledge of sex, since they had no kids in the Garden, and they were not ashamed of their nakedness (Gen 2:25) until they ate the fruit. When they ate the fruit, then they knew, since one of the first things they did was cover themselves. (Gen 3:7) In Gen 3:11, after Adam/Eve confess they are hiding from God because they're naked, God says 'who told you you were naked? Did you eat from the tree?'

So God kicked them out of Eden, and Adam/Eve had children, who had children, and on and on, until today. If Adam/Eve had not eaten of the fruit, they would still be in Eden with God, since they couldn't die until they ate the fruit, and none of the billions of people born would ever have been. (As an aside, it makes you wonder how long were they in the Garden for? There's no way to tell from Genesis, but since they were immortal, it could have been millions or billions of years, possibly helping to explain why the Earth is scientifically billions of years old, yet the Bible says 7000 years. That could explain everything in science, like dinosaurs, except that human skeletons have been found older than that, so it's not a complete theory)

This is the main reason why the Mormon church does not believe in the "original sin" concept common to many other Christian religions. While Adam and Eve did sin by eating from the Tree, they also fulfilled the commandment to be fruitful and multiply. They were kind of stuck, because they had been told to do two things that were mutually incompatible, have kids and not eat the fruit.

So yeah, take that for what you will. So, in my religion, it wasn't a test or a temptation in the Garden, but a way of allowing Adam & Eve to have children while simultaneously thwarting the serpent's attempt to mess everything up. The serpent tricked Adam and Eve, but God tricked the serpent, because if they hadn't eaten of the fruit, then humanity would not exist today.

Nice of you to give such a long answer which if you do not mind me saying, seems from a very knaive point of view and a bit like the sermon from a father.

"Why would I allow that same God to tell me how to raise my kids, who drowned his own?"

I will repeat the same question I put earlier so we stay on course:

" Look at the state of the planet today! And with regards to learning, isn't that something that one does in any case during the process of growing and living?
Priests of all religions have good lessons to teach, what makes this one special or more genuine?
Are you truly happy with the predestined outcome thus far? Do you know something I don't or it it just faith? "

Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
Hopefully I don't come off as preaching here, but you hit on something that my religion (I'm a Mormon) explains fairly well. Whether you believe the explanation is something else entirely, but it makes sense to me, anyway.


So God kicked them out of Eden, and Adam/Eve had children, who had children, and on and on, until today. If Adam/Eve had not eaten of the fruit, they would still be in Eden with God, since they couldn't die until they ate the fruit, and none of the billions of people born would ever have been.

This is the main reason why the Mormon church does not believe in the "original sin" concept common to many other Christian religions. While Adam and Eve did sin by eating from the Tree, they also fulfilled the commandment to be fruitful and multiply. They were kind of stuck, because they had been told to do two things that were mutually incompatible, have kids and not eat the fruit.

So yeah, take that for what you will. So, in my religion, it wasn't a test or a temptation in the Garden, but a way of allowing Adam & Eve to have children while simultaneously thwarting the serpent's attempt to mess everything up. The serpent tricked Adam and Eve, but God tricked the serpent, because if they hadn't eaten of the fruit, then humanity would not exist today.

The "serpent" was not an actual serpent/snake that talked. That's a misconception. Satan came in his natural form, as Eve would be familiar with angels at the time. The word "serpent" was used to describe his demeanor, or sneaky, lying character. Just like we consider deceptive people nowadays "snakes".

That's part of why people have a hard time believing the Bible, they assume there was a REAL talking snake.

Also, Adam & Eve would have procreated either way. God did not need Satan to intervene in order to make them multiply.

I've never been able to trust the Mormonistic views, because of things just like this.
Joseph Smith was a false Prophet. The Papyrus he found containing the so called "Lost Book of Abraham" that he "translated" from "Reformed Egyptian" (which there WAS NO SUCH language) was nothing more than standard Egyptian Funerary documents.

Or the "Magic Eye-Glasses" he used to decode the golden plates for the OTHER book?? (which he claimed he then returned to the angel??)

Or the beheading that took place, but no blood even got on the victims clothes? (& wasn't someone mentioned trying to "catch their breath" after being beheaded???)

The Mormon view has been terribly distorted, because it was written by a human, & was completely made up, as well as plagarized from parts of The KJV NEW TESTAMENT, & Shakespare........

The serpent wasn't a snake until after Adam and Eve ate the fruit. That's when he was "cursed" to slither on his belly, thus losing his limbs. And technically, if you think about it the serpent didn't lie once.

Gen 2:17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Gen2:2-17 "2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

As we know they didn't die, they were kicked out of Eden but they didn't die. And they did learn of good and evil. Thus God lied, Eve lied about what God said, but the serpent was honest. And they had not eaten from the Tree of Life so there's no reason to think they could live any longer than an average human would.

Anyway, my thoughts on the whole temptation/testing thing are this. Perhaps is wasn't a test or a lesson to be taught. Perhaps God knew that his creations weren't complete without knowledge, and the only way to get them that knowledge was for them to take it on their own. Some things just can't be taught.

I suppose we must all be the same, but it is amazing how in a discussion people always pull water to their own mill !
I guess the answer to the world the universe and everyting is that there is no answer?


" No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says; he is always convinced that it says what he means." - George Bernard Shaw

Good post, Osbert. God is Sinless and Satan is sinful. God always test us to determine our loyalty to Him. Only Satan tempts, trying to deceive us and create distance from God.

Adam and Eve sinned due to two of the worst sins ever: pride and greed. Their opposites: humility and charity, are two Great Gifts bestowed by God to those who are truly loyal and truly worship him.

If we eliminate pride and greed, we probably eliminate most of the sin in the world!!!

Gen 2:17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

One interpretation I have seen of this is based on the theory that one day for God is synonymous with 1000 years on Earth. If you accept that, then look in the Bible, you will see that Adam died within 1000 years. (it was 900-something he lived to) In fact, Methuselah, the longest lived person in the Bible, did not make it to 1000, though he was close (968 i think or thereabouts). If you accept that interpretation, then they did indeed die within 'one day' of the time that they ate the fruit, from God's point of view.

The way God is descibed by most people is definetely a masculine figure and yet to create humans in his image(at least 50% of the world population is female) there must be a female aspect to God.

Are any of you aware that in the first verse it is written(Aramaic): B'RAShITh BA RA ALoHIM etc.. In the beginning God created etc..
The hebrew word for God is ELoHIM !

"The early Hebrew name.. Elohim, was the combination of the word Eloh, a goddess, and Im, the masculine plural Hebrew suffix.... Yahweh (the pure form of the corruption Jehovah) was ... derived from the name of an earlier Sumerian deity. And so an accurate translation of "Elohim" is not "God" but rather "the Deities" or "the Pantheon." One wonders when the official translators will have the honesty, or perhaps the courage, to translate this word properly.

as above / so below, right?

FATHER-GOD
CHRIST

/

YALTABAOTH
MOTHER-GOD

so yes there is a male and female aspect..

The Secret Teachings of All Ages, if you will, suggest that Shiva or Jehovah-Elohim(The Grand Architect Demiurge) is both tempting and testing(or teaching rather, as you said Osbert).

This is an occult teaching related to Daath, the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

And seems contradictory to the dualistic mind that is degenerated from sexual abuse(fornication).

It has to do with both the Universal Astral Light and the terrestrial Astral Light.

And requires both profound meditation and transmutation in order to fully Comprehend.

The Creative Energy that we have in our sexual glands comes from Jehovah-Elohim, and can manifest as the Tempting Serpent of Eden or the Serpent that healed the Israelites in the wilderness.

It is up to us(our Essence, with the help of our Divine Mother Kundalini-Shekinah who is the feminine aspect of the Solar Christ) to defeat the tempting serpent(Apep) and heal ourselves by lifting the Brass Serpent upon the Tau Cross.






[edit on 18-8-2006 by Tamahu]