I apologize, from now on, Ill not use any "Big Words" when talking to you.



Too easy

Semper

Is that all you've got?

What a waste of time.

Keep reading that thesaurus, you'll convince someone you know what you're talking about one day.

Bushie foreign policy? Your categorization of U.S. foreign policy is intentionally demeaning. The Bush administration does indeed exercise great influence over U.S. foreign policy, but the adopted policies are official U.S. policies.

Semper, with all due respect, please remember that Blind Loyalty is not an attribute, it is a dangerous position. You, like any other vehement defender of Bush, say that anyone who doesnot like Bush is full of vitriolic hate for the man. I am offended by your broad paint brushing of all anti-Bushers. It reeks of some propaganda you have read somewhere, or at least that your own mind is extremely closed to thepossiblity that your hero is indeed not a hero, but a criminal.

I am not a hateful person and I don't like being accused of blind hatred for Bush. Ask yourself this: why would so many people not like Bush? Instead of being judgmental, maybe you should be a bit more curious about why the majority of Americans don't like Bush. I can tell you for myself exactly what I don't like about Bush and why I think he and his administration are the most dangerous thing to democracy that I've seen in my lifetime.

- He has abolished most of the Bill of Rights.
- He endorses torture, when it is well-known taht torturing an answer out of someone doesn't work, they will say anything under torture.
- Read the PNAC policy. It is the statement of our foreign policy and goes against everyghing that America ever stood for. It talks about invading any country on the planet that it deems to be enemy; how this is determined is anyone's guess.
- He is guilty of war crimes
-He's an embarrassing boob when he travels to foreign countries, read about the recent G-8 meeting where he made an absolute fool of himself.
-Forcing mental health screenings and prescription drugs on small children.
-And don't forget the whole Hurricane Katrina catastrophe/abandonment of the people, one of the most massively inhumane actions from any administration ever.
-His administration has hastened the march to fascism until I hardly recognize my own country.

This is just a quick list, there's lots of other stuff but you won't find it on NBC, Fox etc. because they are all owned by people who think propaganda is more important than facts. Check out some truly brilliant investigative journalists, many of whom now have their own website because the mainstream media refuses to print anything that might make look Bush look bad. Try Greg Palast, globalresearch.com, and onlinejournal.com, Jerry Mazza, Larry Chin. Read about these jouranlists impressive credentials and accomplishments.

You're right, it is not black and white, but why then do you seek to espouse such a black and white stance with the govt and the police force? You act as if they are both infallible. You blindly support both and when you consider the ever-increasing fascist states of both, your blind support is actually scary and dangerous, IMO.

I'm sincerely not trying to pick on you, I'm just trying to get you to take the blinders off. Your blind loyalty serves no one but yourself. Your hate towards those who don't like Bush is obvious, yet you accuse us of blind hate.

forestlady

Outstanding post.

Bush failed policies. . . while the present administration wants us to believe that painting a picture of good foreign policies is the best way to curb PO, is not so . . . Americans are not blind or deft or mute.

We can see what all these so call good polices that the present administration say are working are doing to our nation and the other nations.

He has to paint a rosy picture because the truth is that the costs to the taxpayers on his war on terror are taking a toll on the working class in America.

Iraq has failed to produce the desirable democracy of happy people united in one common cause.

Even when the CIA and Military experts told the president about the consequences of his invasion of Iraq.

But the agenda was. . . not what was sold to the American public. . . that is why it was ignored by the Bush administration.

The war on terror has yielded more terror than before and more martyrs to die for the cause.

Bush never had a clear purpose about the people and the government in Iraq but he knew what his corporate goal was.

He never stop and rethink if foreign policies was working he just keep on going like a child with a temper tantrum, that is call bad politics.

While telling the American people that the world wants to kill Americans especially from the Middle East he has no clear view of what he wants.

Targeting and attacking countries because their evil intents towards American will never end the anger of the people been targeted.

We have a country now that our nation is been responsible for the well being of its citizens and after Iraqi invasion no Even Baghdad is safe, how many people needs to die in that country and how many of our soldiers need to be scarify for his bad policies.

Iraq was a fiasco and so are Bush foreign policies and his war on terror.

Thanks for bringing up Iraq, Marg. I forgot that in my list (duhhh) and that's probably the most importatn thing concerning our foreign policy. Yes the rape of Iraq has left the Middle East burning with anger towards the U.S., and the rest of the world of course. We have indeed created several new generations of terrorists to hate us. And then there is our incestuous relationship with Israel, where we believe they can do no wrong, all while Israel launches its own holocaust against the Arabs. Good posts, Marg, thanks, and good points.

Semper started this thread with a good point. More and more of the world is beginning to realize that NK and Iran are led by madmen and are threats to world peace. And this is in great part due to the leadership of the US.

But then the thread temporarily got derailed by personal crap, and that's always bad. It's like people were trying to shout Semper down because he holds conservative views and values. And that's not right.

What particularly bothers me is using terminology over and over, like "We the people". As if there is a special group of people that are smarter and "more enlightened" than the rest of us, because they oppose Bush and this administration. Marg, I love you to death, and I'm surprised to see you resort to this tactic. I've never known you to do it before.

It reminds me of another thread entitled "People like us". Can't anyone see the inherent elitism and snobbishness in statements like that?

forestlady, Semperfortis is not "blindly loyal" to the Bush administration, nor does he "hate those who don't like Bush".

You should examine some of these statements you made:

Originally posted by forestlady
- He has abolished most of the Bill of Rights.
- He endorses torture, when it is well-known taht torturing an answer out of someone doesn't work, they will say anything under torture.
- Read the PNAC policy. It is the statement of our foreign policy and goes against everyghing that America ever stood for. It talks about invading any country on the planet that it deems to be enemy; how this is determined is anyone's guess.
- He is guilty of war crimes
-He's an embarrassing boob when he travels to foreign countries, read about the recent G-8 meeting where he made an absolute fool of himself.
-Forcing mental health screenings and prescription drugs on small children.
-And don't forget the whole Hurricane Katrina catastrophe/abandonment of the people, one of the most massively inhumane actions from any administration ever.
-His administration has hastened the march to fascism until I hardly recognize my own country.

Most of them are vast hyperbole. Exaggerating because examining the facts show a much different story. For example: "He has abolished most of the Bill of Rights." What a load of crap. But it sounds good, and you can sell it to people who don't understand politics.

As for those who cite world opinion, well we don't run the USA according to what Europe thinks, and they don't elect our president. Too bad, so sad. Europe is ineffectual and weak. Take the current actions regarding the cease fire in Lebanon right now; where are all the French soldiers? Their "commitment" dropped from 15,000 down to 200. And those 200 won't even be peacekeepers. They will be "engineers".

They talk a good game, but when the rubber meets the road, they are nowhere to be found. Maybe if they started kicking in men and money to help out around the world, we'd be more inclined to listen to them. Maybe.

jsobecky

We the people is in the references to the constitution.

We are not one particuler group or one race or one etnich background.

We the people is all of us Americans that live and share a common ground . . . that is protected and held by our own constitution.

I feel saddened that you took that very proud phrase of mine and turned into something totally our of contest.

Just like any politicians that has no regard and respect for We the people is what hurt me the most.

We the people is to all loving Americans of this nation.

I am very sad indeed.

I must have misunderstood you, marg. I went back and re-read that post and you were not doing what I thought you were.

When I first saw it, it reminded me of that other thread I mentioned.

Sorry, marg.

jsobecky

Thanks for the support.

I don't really mind getting beaten up though; especially when their post is as uninformed as they have been. Can not really take them serious can we?

Keep fighting the good fight!!!!

Semper

Originally posted by semperfortis
Keep fighting the good fight!!!!

I heard this from an acquiantance of mine and it seems to apply in this case...

This is what happens when Americans know more about football than politics. They think that there are two teams fighting against each other and that only one can and should win.

I don't really mind getting beaten up though; especially when their post is as uninformed as they have been. Can not really take them serious can we?

That's just an excuse for not knowing how to answer a serious rebuke.

[edit on 20-8-2006 by Jamuhn]

jsobecky,

Would you not imagine that members of a site dedicated to conspiracy and the unveiling of those conspiracies be against a "One World Order?" In so doing, would those same people not be "Against" catering to the concerns of Europe?

Yet it seems anytime Foreign Policy is brought up, the most declamatory members step up to proclaim the Administration is wrong because of what the rest of the world thinks.

It is that very same group that oscillates on every post and only argues the opposing position.

Semper

Originally posted by semperfortis
Yet it seems anytime Foreign Policy is brought up, the most declamatory members step up to proclaim the Administration is wrong because of what the rest of the world thinks.

So why is it you started this thread and the Bush admin wrote their article if neither of you care what the rest of the world thinks?

Originally posted by jsobecky

forestlady, Semperfortis is not "blindly loyal" to the Bush administration, nor does he "hate those who don't like Bush".

You should examine some of these statements you made:

Originally posted by forestlady
- He has abolished most of the Bill of Rights.
- He endorses torture, when it is well-known taht torturing an answer out of someone doesn't work, they will say anything under torture.
- Read the PNAC policy. It is the statement of our foreign policy and goes against everyghing that America ever stood for. It talks about invading any country on the planet that it deems to be enemy; how this is determined is anyone's guess.
- He is guilty of war crimes
-He's an embarrassing boob when he travels to foreign countries, read about the recent G-8 meeting where he made an absolute fool of himself.
-Forcing mental health screenings and prescription drugs on small children.
-And don't forget the whole Hurricane Katrina catastrophe/abandonment of the people, one of the most massively inhumane actions from any administration ever.
-His administration has hastened the march to fascism until I hardly recognize my own country.

Most of them are vast hyperbole. Exaggerating because examining the facts show a much different story. For example: "He has abolished most of the Bill of Rights." What a load of crap. But it sounds good, and you can sell it to people who don't understand politics.

As for those who cite world opinion, well we don't run the USA according to what Europe thinks, and they don't elect our president. Too bad, so sad. Europe is ineffectual and weak. Take the current actions regarding the cease fire in Lebanon right now; where are all the French soldiers? Their "commitment" dropped from 15,000 down to 200. And those 200 won't even be peacekeepers. They will be "engineers".

They talk a good game, but when the rubber meets the road, they are nowhere to be found. Maybe if they started kicking in men and money to help out around the world, we'd be more inclined to listen to them. Maybe.

Jsobecy, please tell me why you believe the Bill of Rights has not been abolished, instead of just telling me I'm full of it. Do some research, find out what bills have passed and what they actually say, you may change your mind, who knows.
You sure seem to have a cynical view in your post which shows me that I'm talking to someone who has already decided and will not be deterred by mere facts.

I think Semper can defend himself, and doesn't need you to do it for him. And if you don't understand why it is good to have the good will of the rest of the world, then sir, YOU don't understand politics or diplomacy. You really don't need to resort to insults to dispute my political views do you?

P.S. - Don't you think I've already examined my statements? I don't need to do it again...

Forestlady,

I too would like to know what rights that are protected under the Bill of Rights that you have lost.

I have been teaching Practical Application of Constitutional Law in the Academy for around 10 years now, and I'm not familiar with any repeals. If I missed them, please update me.

Semper

Originally posted by Jamuhn


That's just an excuse for not knowing how to answer a serious rebuke.

Can we please keep the personal sniping out of this thread, and stick to the topic?

Originally posted by Jamuhn
So why is it you started this thread and the Bush admin wrote their article if neither of you care what the rest of the world thinks?

Maybe he started it to invoke a serious discussion about the topic. And I can't speak for him, but as I stated earlier, if the rest of the world would do something instead of just wagging their fingers at the US, we might be inclined to listen.

Originally posted by forestlady
Jsobecy, please tell me why you believe the Bill of Rights has not been abolished, instead of just telling me I'm full of it.

I'm not going to try to prove a negative. You made the allegation, it's up to you to defend it with facts.

There is nothing that I cannot do that I could not do pre- 9/11. Security is tighter, but you can thank the terrorists for that, not Bush.

You sure seem to have a cynical view in your post which shows me that I'm talking to someone who has already decided and will not be deterred by mere facts.

That's your opinion. It stems from the fact that I asked for verification of your allegations, which you cannot provide.

I think Semper can defend himself, and doesn't need you to do it for him.

I think his stand is correct, and that several people were trying to derail the topic. And I will post whatever I damn well please, within the T&C, thank you.

And if you don't understand why it is good to have the good will of the rest of the world, then sir, YOU don't understand politics or diplomacy.

"Good" is one thing. It would be "good" if there were no wars. Sound policy is another thing. Which country should we listen to? Somalia? Sudan? France?

No thanks, I'd rather listen to those who have our own best interests in mind.

You really don't need to resort to insults to dispute my political views do you?

You made a bunch of exaggerated, unsupported statements. I called you on them. That's not an insult.

Originally posted by jsobecky

Originally posted by Jamuhn
That's just an excuse for not knowing how to answer a serious rebuke.

Can we please keep the personal sniping out of this thread, and stick to the topic?

As long as semper will try to misrepresent my statements by claiming I am ignorant and using such ad hominem arguments, I will respond.

Originally posted by Jamuhn
So why is it you started this thread and the Bush admin wrote their article if neither of you care what the rest of the world thinks?

Maybe he started it to invoke a serious discussion about the topic. And I can't speak for him, but as I stated earlier, if the rest of the world would do something instead of just wagging their fingers at the US, we might be inclined to listen.

You are asking the world to act in the manner that the US Foreign Policy dictates. Countries all over the world including the US act in the interest of their citizens first and that of the world second. Thus acting so, the world realizes that the US interests are not necessarily that of their own or for the betterment of everyone else. There are a few times where the interests of the US are the same as that of other nations though. But, in general, a foreign policy based on maintaining the US supremacy throughout the 21st century will not be met kindly by the rest of the world. Nor would France expect you to be a major fan of their own foreign policy.

[edit on 20-8-2006 by Jamuhn]

Originally posted by semperfortis
jsobecky,

Would you not imagine that members of a site dedicated to conspiracy and the unveiling of those conspiracies be against a "One World Order?" In so doing, would those same people not be "Against" catering to the concerns of Europe?

Yet it seems anytime Foreign Policy is brought up, the most declamatory members step up to proclaim the Administration is wrong because of what the rest of the world thinks.

The fact is, the rest of the world would thumb their nose at us if we told them how to run their country. Yet we are supposed to seek their approval before we make a move.

These same countries take pleasure in our defeats. What a bunch of pals, eh?

You know, Semper, when I engage a topic, I think that the people discussing it can take one of several approaches:

1. Members of a thinktank such as the Rand Corp., who approach a topic with a clean slate and no pre-conceived notions
   
2. Two members on either side of a normal debate
   
3. Two competing political candidates
   
4. Two lawyers in a courtroom
   
5. Members who resort to making it personal, with an eye to derailing the thread
   
6. Two rival gang members going for blood
   

Rarely does the discussion stay elevated to options a or b.

But, I have been told that this is not the place for reasoned debate, because conspiracy does not lend itself to reason.

You cannot open a closed mind. It's a sad fact that some are afraid of being chastised if they happen to look at things in a different way.

Originally posted by Jamuhn
You are asking the world to act in the manner that the US Foreign Policy dictates. Countries all over the world including the US act in the interest of their citizens first and that of the world second. Thus acting so, the world realizes that the US interests are not necessarily that of their own or for the betterment of everyone else. There are a few times where the interests of the US are the same as that of other nations though. But, in general, a foreign policy based on maintaining the US supremacy throughout the 21st century will not be met kindly by the rest of the world. Nor would France expect you to be a major fan of their own foreign policy.

I agree, and have stated many times that countries do not have friends, they have interests. And, as you state, they will act upon those best interests.

So, given that, why should we care about their opinion of us again? I guess we could nod our heads and politely agree with them, but do what we want anyway. But that is being deceitful.

The problem is that the world hasn't seen the US stand up for itself in a long long time. They were used to the John Kerry's of the US. Now, we have a president who says what he means, and then delivers. And that frustrates the world.