A Lutheran Thing???

its the other two you should be focusing on. the one on the left is the same logo used by the world council of churches (or the UCC?) (it supposedly means victory. I just see an upside down tammuz cross affixiated to a regular cross to make a lorraine cross).

the one on the right is also represents a pheonix, as evident by the templar or tammuz cross behind the dove (pheonix with a sun symbol behind it).

the symbol on the top is the obvious all seeing eye. what you have here is a trifecta

*deleted to remove double post. sorry about that.

[edit on 2006-7-22 by NuTroll]

Actually chief_counsellor is dead on the money correct…

Originally By chief_counsellor
And yeah, the eye in a triangle has been a symbol for God for centuries. Since this is a Lutheran church, that would represent the trinity, the triangle, the three rays, the eye...the Truine God. The dove, the Holy Spirit. The cross over a globe, representing a lot of things, but in this context, the triumph of Christ through his death and resurection, and his supremacy over the earth.

The reason for the Dove is its one of the only two physical representations of the Holy Spirit that is mentioned in the Bible, The other that is sometimes used is the Tongue of Fire. It is most certainly not a phoenix.

i know the obvious reason a dove is used (symbol of peace), but why does it have eagle's wings and why is it on top of a sun disc with a templar cross forming a disc behind its head?

more importantly, why is the dove standing upright instead of decending (although i would probably call that out too).

And I know for a fact that Albert Pike talks in great depth the relationship between
Masonry and Lucifer... therefore according to him it is "Luciferian" and a cult is (SNIP)

Ok, I see that you're going to trot out the old 'I read it on the 'net, so it must be true, stuff', as well as the 'I have preconceived notion, I'm right, and I must educate everyone' cards.

Blah. Let me know if you want a discussion, and then we'll talk. Til then, this is useless.

defcon5

Thanks, but I have already recieved the "Trinity" explanation from several others (you would know that if you read the post). As far as the Renaissance aspect of this building, I doubt it. This part of the church was built in the 1930s during the indusrial revolution. I was looking to find out more information from someone who has knowledge of the true occultic meaning of the symbols. Here's another pic of the church so you know what the church is. This is the first Lutheran church I've seen these symbols on and I think it is odd... especially when churches that are more than a century old don't have these symbols adorning their entry way. seems like outside influence maybe.

i know the obvious reason a dove is used (symbol of peace)

No the reason to anyone that has read the Bible is the one that I stated, how does someone represent something that has no physical form. They have used the symbology present in the bible of one of the two times that the Holy Spirit took on a type of physical form. This one is from when the Holy Spirit descended at the Baptism of Jesus Christ, the other was when the Holy Spirit descended on the Disciples and was visibly present as a Tongue of Flame.

but why does it have eagle's wings

Without going into an extended study of ornithology, what is it that you’re using to identify the wings as being those of an Eagle? The Talons are obviously not of either an Eagle or a Phoenix as they are birds of pray with apparent, sharp, weapons for talons.

why is it on top of a sun disc with a templar cross forming a disc behind its head?

IMHO the reason for the cross is that it is a Halo; crossed halos are commonly seen on personifications of God, especially on Christ. This is to differentiate them from the halos of human patriarchs or saints, which have no cross in them in artistic renditions, as well as halos on angels. Here is Wiki’s take on the subject:

Halos
Round halos are typically used to signify saints — i.e., people considered as spiritually gifted. A cross within a halo is used to represent Jesus. Triangular halos are used for representations of the Trinity. Square halos are used to depict unusually saintly living personages.

And some examples here: Coptic painting

As to the circle it could be a halo, or it might just be a background to elevate the carving off the surface and make it better match the other two symbols, only the original caster would know for certain. I will have to further check into the meaning of this circle if there is any meaning to it at all.

The cross on the world is obviously sitting on a disk as well, and I am sure it is just to give that image a standout background. That is a cross on top of the world and it is used in many religious publications with the continents even showing up in the globe, this cross is called the “Cross Triumphant”.

more importantly, why is the dove standing upright instead of decending

I am going to say artistic license, to make it stand upright with the other two symbols to give the whole pattern a symmetrical feel, same as with the background disks, but I will try and check into this further as well.


[edit on 7/22/2006 by defcon5]

would explain why out of all the symbols a christian church could use to convey
a message (like this post I'm typing) they would choose three that have known
pagan origins.

Unfortunately like others have said above, almost every symbol out there has been used in something pagan or another. I know I have discussed this with my pastor before, as I am a strict Historicist and therefore do not agree with symbology and holidays that have come over from the Catholic Church. They see no issue with them as first you are worshiping God not some symbol, secondly because you are saved through Grace not works. I personally think that one of the main reasons for switching from the original Jewish holidays was to give Christianity a separate identity from Judaism.

It just doesn't make sense to me why a group of people
who fought so hard to get away from the oppression of the Catholic church to
follow a more biblical path would turn around and adopt the same use of pagan
symbolism that the Catholic church had done for centuries.

I do agree with this myself, as I stated above, I have even had a few conversations with my pastor about this exact topic. There is not any sinister plot going on behind the scenes or anything, but there are defiantly hangovers from the old Roman Catholic Church that are evident in Lutheran Churches. Again, this is due to the origins of Luther as an Augustinian Monk.

Its even more odd since Lutherans are supposed to be Historicists, which means that we believe that Rome is the 4th Beast in Daniel and the 1st beast in Revelations, and that the Pope is the Little Horn of Daniel. Luther was one of the first men to call the position of the Pope an Anti-Christ. Yet for all of that he still allowed Sunday Sabbath, Christmas, Easter, and other Roman Catholic Holidays sanctified by Rome from pagan origins.

I am looking to discuss this with someone who
knows what the Bible says about being separate from the world, and how this
to me is an obvious blending of the world (pagan symbols) and this Lutheran
church, and other "Christian" churches that apparantly don't care what the Bible
says about not being yoked with the world.

Aah, yeah. Well unfortunately even though you are not supposed to be OF the world, you are still IN the world. That means you have to live a life here, submit to government, pay taxes, have a job, and so on, but you are not to build your fortune here but rather in the world to come. You are more likely to be considered Yoked with the world by your day to day actions of living then you are by what symbols or holidays that your church follows.

It is basically where your heart is, is it with yourself and getting rich, powerful, and ahead of your neighbor, or is it with God. It comes down to who REALLY is your master, God the creator, or yourself? As it says in the Bible no man can have two masters, he will love one and hate the other, so who really is your God? Is it some symbol on a wall somewhere, yourself, or God?

This gets back to what I said above, according to the Bible, no matter what you do here on this earth, if you truly love, accept, believe in God and are forgiven, it makes no difference what symbol is on the wall at the church you worship at. Its through Grace of God, from the Death of Christ that your saved, not by works, lest any man should boast. If your Church leads you astray, but you are a true Christian, you will not have to answer for that; however they will, and that is specifically mentioned in the Bible.

Even though I am a Historicist and I often post negatively about the Catholic Church, that does not mean I believe that their followers are condemned for following them. I cannot judge their hearts and therefore cannot tell if they are true Christians or not, but I know there is much pagan and doctrinally incorrect in their religion. Right off the bat they believe in justification through works and grace rather then through grace alone. I am sure that there are posters here that have gotten up in arms about some of my posts, but it is not meant to be personally pointed at them because for all I know they may truly be Christians in their hearts. This was a subject that Luther himself suffered over for many years, he was deathly afraid that he could never live up to God and earn salvation when he was a Catholic monk. It took him many years to finally accept the idea of justification through grace, that salvation is not earned but given. justification through grace is a very pivotal point in many protestant religions besides Lutheran today.

Anyway if you really want to get to the heart of the matter and get the official answer to your questions, straight from the horses mouth, then try emailing here:

The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod

Post your question and their answer here, I would like to see what their “official” response is as well, or send me a U2U.


[edit on 7/22/2006 by defcon5]

As far as the Renaissance aspect of this building, I doubt it. This part of the church was built in the 1930s during the indusrial revolution.

There were a large number of Lutheran Churches built throughout the North during the 1800’s and early 1900’s. These were mission churches. Most of them have a very Roman Catholic, Gothic style to them, and many looked very much like castles. You will find this type of symbology in those older style churches, even stranger still I saw one that had a Crucifix over the entryway. This is extremely weird, as Crucifix’s are not used by most Protestant Churches, especially by Lutheran’s, as they believe its re-crucifying Christ. Perhaps in those old days when the churches were more isolated the individual pastors had more say in what decorations were used on their buildings.

Edit to add:

I see that this is a ELCA church, that is the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, which is the schism church that I mentioned in an earlier post. They have only been around since May 3, 1987, as you can check here on their own history page, so this building was apparently originally not theirs having been built in 1931. Though I have seen that same imagery in the old Lutheran Church I attended for most of my life, so I am going to guess its common to old Lutheran Churches in general or that building was originally owned by LCMS.


[edit on 7/22/2006 by defcon5]

Thanks for the info Defcon

Originally posted by Essedarius
I would guess that the bird above is a symbol for God the Father.
From Matthew 17 at Jesus's baptism, God the Father appeared in the shape of a dove.

Perhaps that makes the entire carving a symbol of the holy trinity:

The all-seeing eye as the Holy Spirit.
The cross as the Son.
And the dove as God the Father

The dove that landed on Jesus at His baptism was symbolic of the Holy Spirit.
The upright cross is representative of Jesus.

As for the single eye, there are verses that say things like, I will guide you with my eyelids, which kind of indicate a watchful Maker, but like someone else said, I'm not Lutheran so I really don't know about that eye.

The devil is an unoriginal copycat, who has used many holy things to desecrate and foul with his insane plan to 'be like the Most High". The upside down cross is one symbol that satanism gloats over as if it is an original. The pentagram is nothing more than the star of David profaned. And so on.

The all seeing eye on the US currency is, as far as I'm concerned of the same stripe since the Bible specifically denounces misuse of the Holy and putting a symbol of God on the mammon is, imho, one of the biggest mistakes ever made by US money men.

[edit on 22-7-2006 by curiousity]

[edit on 22-7-2006 by curiousity]

once again i say this, different post, same thought

look at his date he opened his account:

Mordecai81
Member
Registered: 21-7-2006

and his first thread he makes:

posted on 21-7-2006 at 04:01 PM (post id: 2356173)

--== MODERATORS ==--
SET UP RESTRICTIONS ON HOW LONG YOU HAVE TO BE A MEMBER BEFORE YOU CAN POST A NEW THREAD.
MAKE IT LIKE A MINIMUM OF 1 WEEK AND 30 POSTS.
BY THEN WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO DESCERN THE BASIC CHARACTER OF A PERSON ENOUGH TO TELL IF THEY ARE A HOAXER OR NOT.

So much worrying about pagan symbols! I suppose no one who posted negative things about these symbols celebrates Christ's birthday on December 25th, uses a lit up Christmast tree, or has the Easter bunny bring chocolate. The point is when the Christian church moved into pagan Europe (and even before) they took over pagan symbols and christianized them. It was very wise too not to destroy people's traditions completely, but redefine them. Symbols and traditions learned in childhood are the hardest things to give up.

--== MODERATORS ==--
SET UP RESTRICTIONS ON HOW LONG YOU HAVE TO BE A MEMBER BEFORE YOU CAN POST A NEW THREAD.
MAKE IT LIKE A MINIMUM OF 1 WEEK AND 30 POSTS.
BY THEN WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO DESCERN THE BASIC CHARACTER OF A PERSON ENOUGH TO TELL IF THEY ARE A HOAXER OR NOT.



I assure you... I am not a "Hoaxer". Just thought these images (having pagan origins) on a Christian church was curious and wanted to get other peoples input to add to what I've already found out. I thought that is what these forums were for... discussion... not whining.

In the picture you posted of the front of the church, you can also clearly see the V shape over the front doorway which represents the "tri-square" symbol of Freemasonry. This also adorns most Masonic Lodges in a similar fashion. You can even see how the stone was cut to make it seem like a ruler.

As for the Lutheran connection, I was brought up Lutheran and there were no such symbols in the church I attended. I imagine that you could go to plenty of Catholic churches and also find a lot of similar occult symbols hidden in them, basically any type of older church.

I think the church was just made by a mason perhaps, and he decided to sneak in all the little symbols as a joke, etc.

Originally posted by defcon5
I am a member of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and have been since I was born. I went to Lutheran private school and Catholic high school, so I am quite familiar with their symbols. First off there is no such word as Lutheranism, it’s simply called Lutheran.

A Lutheran is one who subscribes to Lutheranism, which is the body of divinity handed down by Luther. It is a word, but is rarely used except by theologians.

Second there is nothing Occult about the Lutheran Church, so if this is going to be a Christian Bashing thread then I will not bother beyond this post.

Actually, all religion consists of the occult. Without an occult basis, it wouldn't be a religion, but would instead be a philosophy, or some secular doctrine. An occult practice in Lutheranism, for example, is the consubstantiation of the Eucharist.

The original poster mentioned Rosicrucianism. It is a pretty safe bet to say the original Rosicrucians (i.e., those who published the Fama, Confessio, and Chymical Wedding) were Lutherans. This assumption is based on the following:

1. The Rosicrucian manifestoes were first published in Germany, where most people were either Lutheran or Calvinist.

2. The Rosicrucian Confessio calls the pope "antichrist", common for Lutheran of the 17th century when the Rosicrucian documents were composed and published.

3. The chief Rosicrucian emblem is extremely similar to Martin Luther's seal.

4. In his autobiography, Lutheran minister and theologian Johann Valentin Andreae listed "The Chymical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreutz" as one of his works. A large number of historians believe that Rev. Andreae also wrote the first two Rosicrucian manifestoes, or at least assisted in their writing.

As an aside, neither Rosicrucianism nor Freemasonry are "cults", unless you define "cult" as a group of people who share certain beliefs, which means that everyone belongs to some sort of cult.

Um why don't you just ask someone that knows about that church in your community?
That would be my first guess?

Originally posted by Mordecai81
I assure you... I am not a "Hoaxer". Just thought these images (having pagan origins) on a Christian church was curious and wanted to get other peoples input to add to what I've already found out. I thought that is what these forums were for... discussion... not whining.

sorry, that's more or less my default first post when a new member only several hours old makes a new thread about some fantastic idea, conspiracy, thought, or question
i have long asked the mods to place restrictions on the ability to open new threads by new members

nothing personal, but if you had spent some time digging through the site and reading other posts in the forums you probably could have solved your problem and answered your question yourself

this is the reason i beg of the mods to place a delay on new accounts
only like a week, but long enough to cause hoaxers to get bored and go somewhere else and for new members to actually look into their questions rather than just ask them and expect an answer
if you are forced to wait to ask your quesiton you might just do some research and find yourself the answer you were looking for
and if you find your answer somewhere else then bring your information to the forums

edit: accounts spelled wrong and "filtered" to aco#s because a "bad" word was found in the middle of the misspelling

[edit on 26-7-2006 by wondernut]

Wondernut:

You remind me of the guy angrily swerving through rush hour traffic this morning.

Man I dislike that guy.

Take a deep breath.

Originally posted by Essedarius
Wondernut:

You remind me of the guy angrily swerving through rush hour traffic this morning.

Man I dislike that guy.

Take a deep breath.

how is being rational and trying to prevent hoaxes by imposing a "new thread wait period" on new members at all like some jerk speeding thought traffic?
i am actually encouraging adding some rationaliity to these forums by forcing ignorant people who ask first and research second to research first or wait a week to ask.

nothing dramatic and nothing all restrictive on members over 1 week old
you don't give kids real guns till after they are mature enough to shoot them right
you shouldnt give new members the ability to create new threads till they know how to look up information to see if what they are about to post as "new" has been discussed somewhere else before

in addition to easing the repetitive "new" finds and questions by allowing new members time to research on their own, this concept of a wait time would prevent most hoaxes form being launched as the hoaxers would lose interest if they have to wait a week

i am actually quite calm and relaxed

if you read my posts they are rarely upset
perhapps your assusmption that i need to calm down is merely a reflection of yourself because you read my calm words as fast paced and agressive
seems like someone has latent personal issues they need to resolve...