A Lutheran Thing???

So here is some photos I took of a church in a city 30 miles from where I live. I know what these symbols are, in fact I've done extensive research on the topic, but I've never seen them in association with the Lutheran church. I know some West Asian Catholic/Gnostic churches use them (along with pagan cults like the OTO, freemasonry, and many others). Also on television I saw an ad for another local Lutheran church and behind the pastor that was talking was a banner with the name of the church and something else and a large "rosicrucian" looking rose symbol??? I did some background on the church and apparantly that part of the church was constructed in the 1930's.



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[edit on 22-7-2006 by pantha]

Well those pictures are certainly big enough to see the detail!

The All Seeing Eye is a commonly used symbol representing God. Its usage predates freemasonry and other organizations still use it as a symbol of deity (e.g US Government and the $1 bill).

The triangle in which it is centered is used to represent the Holy Trinity, again, not just by freemasonry.

The cross is self-explanatory, and the bird... not sure about the bird.

BTW freemasonry isn't a cult, it's a fraternity.

I'm afraid I don't know enough about Lutheranism to comment on why those particular symbols are exhibited and not others, but I feel confident an expert is just around the corner...

I would guess that the bird above is a symbol for God the Father.
From Matthew 17 at Jesus's baptism, God the Father appeared in the shape of a dove.

Perhaps that makes the entire carving a symbol of the holy trinity:

The all-seeing eye as the Holy Spirit.
The cross as the Son.
And the dove as God the Father

Sorry... I dont think I explained enough. I said I already know what the symbols mean, I've done extensive research on all of them which by the way...

The all seeing eye according to the traditional pseudo-Christian lie represents God The Father, not the Holy Spirit because The Father is the head of the trinity and the all seeing eye represents that omniscience and omnipresence. The dove represents the Holy Spirit, Like in the New Testament gospels when John the Baptist baptizes Jesus in the Jordan River and the Holy spirit descends upon him in the shape of a dove (Luke 3:22). And the cross represents the Son of God (at least you had one right). But anyway I don't mean that to be contentious, but I'm looking for info from someone who knows a little more about the connection between Lutheranism and the occult. I'll give you a small summary of what I know of the symbols so there is no confusion.

Boy...

One out of three.

My only excuse is that I'm Presbyterian.
We only have to know how to throw a good potluck.

All seeing eye - Known by several names including "The Eye of Horus" dating back to Egyptian paganism. This symbol is without a doubt an occultic (and not a Christian) symbol used by pagans around the world and predates Christianity. It is used in "Fraternal" cults like Freemasonry (please read anything by Albert Pike and then tell me true Freemasonry isn't a Luciferian cult), the Illuminati, and the OTO (Ordo Templi Orientis) which was founded by Aleister Crowley. He proclaimed himself "the Anti-Christ" and is seen wearing an all seeing eye on his hat in a photo and the all seeing eye is all over OTO literature. If you do real research you will find that symbol has very deep occultic meaning. continued...

The "cross" - Isn't really a cross at all. The symbol (predating Christianity) is routed in ancient Roman and Greek paganism. It is actually called "The Swaddled Stone" or Olenos the Sin-bearer. It is an exoteric story about the pagan god Saturn "the father of gods and men" and his wife Rhea. She offered him a stone wrapped in linen instead of their new born child which he devoured and stopped him from devouring the new born child which is what he would have done (apparently he had a taste for exotic foods). Read "The Two Babylons" by Alexander Hislop.

www.biblebelievers.org.au...-%20Olenos,%20the%20Sin-Bearer.

Continued...

The dove seems like it is the only symbol that isn't rooted in paganism. However my point is this... Christians are called to be separate from the world... 2Corinthians 6:14-18 -14Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 18And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. I would like to see if any one out there knows about the Lutheran church's pagan roots. I knew these things were practiced by the Catholic church having many of its traditions rooted in paganism. I didn't realize the Lutheran church shared these roots.

Originally posted by Mordecai81
and the OTO (Ordo Templi Orientis) which was founded by Aleister Crowley. He proclaimed himself "the Anti-Christ" and is seen wearing an all seeing eye on his hat in a photo and the all seeing eye is all over OTO literature. If you do real research you will find that symbol has very deep occultic meaning

So is the dove, and if you wish to get down to it, pretty much every symbol has occult meanings.

The "cross" - Isn't really a cross at all. The symbol (predating Christianity) is routed in ancient Roman...

Gee the cross was Roman whoda thunk?

Thank you Cug... you just reinforced what I was saying. Being an "enlightened" one you identified the last occultic symbol in this trinity of occultism and not Christianity. Which is my point... If the Bible calls Christians to be separate from the things of the world (paganism/occultism) why do Lutherans (a Bible teaching, God trusting, Christian organization) associate themselves with these symbols??? Why must we use symbols unless to convey a message... this one being occultic in my opinion.

Originally posted by Mordecai81
Why do Lutherans (a Bible teaching, God trusting, Christian organization) associate themselves with these symbols???

You're painting with a pretty broad brush.
Especially considering that Luther's whole point was that the path to God is a very individual journey and, unlike the Catholic church, individual Lutheran churches are not bound to be exactly the same.

So, while you do ask a valid question as to why these symbols were chosen, I think you need to ask why that specific church chose to employ those symbols, as opposed to questioning the whole of Lutheranism.

However...as this thread has already shown...I may be off: does this symbolic cluster appear on all things Lutheran? Or only this church you've discovered?

Originally posted by Mordecai81
It is used in "Fraternal" cults like Freemasonry (please read anything by Albert Pike and then tell me true Freemasonry isn't a Luciferian cult)

I've read Morals and Dogma, by Albert Pike, cover to cover. Freemasonry is neither Luciferian nor a cult.

And your 'say so' doesn't make it so...

I don't understand your intent, Mordecai. You:

1) Claim to know what all this symbolism means. You know, the REAL meaning.

2) You reject explanation and ties offered by pretty much anyone contributing to this thread.

3) You take every opportunity to slight any group you can... 'cult', 'anti-christ', 'pagan and occult' (said to mean EVIL), regardless of the topic you started.

So, why exactly did you start this thread? What are you hoping to achieve in a discussion forum, sans discussion?

Hobbes... I guess I'm looking for someone who's on the same page as I am.
According to you that may be one "ignorant" person looking for another to discuss
this. I never rejected any explanation. I simply corrected what someone said.
That explanation is one I've already heard... I contacted the pastor and he told me
the same thing about the trinity. I am looking to discuss this with someone who
knows what the Bible says about being separate from the world, and how this
to me is an obvious blending of the world (pagan symbols) and this Lutheran
church, and other "Christian" churches that apparantly don't care what the Bible
says about not being yoked with the world.

And no... I'm not saying all Lutherans... just this church and any others out there
that are using pagan symbols and making up a warm fuzzy "Christian" meaning
behind them.

And I know for a fact that Albert Pike talks in great depth the relationship between
Masonry and Lucifer... therefore according to him it is "Luciferian" and a cult is 1 : formal religious veneration 2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents 3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents all of which would apply to Freemasonry (and yes alot of other religious groups, I'm not singling out Masonry as the only cult okay)

Originally posted by Essedarius
I would guess that the bird above is a symbol for God the Father.
From Matthew 17 at Jesus's baptism, God the Father appeared in the shape of a dove.

Perhaps that makes the entire carving a symbol of the holy trinity:

The all-seeing eye as the Holy Spirit.
The cross as the Son.
And the dove as God the Father

Actually in the bible it says the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus in the form of a dove. The Dove has been a symbol of the Holy Spirit for Christians for ages.

And yeah, the eye in a triangle has been a symbol for God for centuries. Since this is a Lutheran church, that would represent the trinity, the triangle, the three rays, the eye...the Truine God. The dove, the Holy Spirit. The cross over a globe, representing a lot of things, but in this context, the triumph of Christ through his death and resurection, and his supremacy over the earth.

It sounds like you are implying that good Christians should avoid the use of any previously used symbol in order to separate themselves from this world.

Does that mean that good Christians should avoid writing, or even speaking?
(Yes, I'm being a little extreme here, but bear me out.)

The letters that you are reading right now are symbols in exactly the same way that the carvings on the side of that church are symbols. Any phoneme that makes its way out of your mouth is part of a very complex isomorphic relationship with the concepts swirling in your mind.

To begrudge any group the opportunity to adapt a symbol and apply it to their beliefs is to try to quell their communication.

You shouldn't fixate on those carvings any more than I should fixate on your specific word and letter choices in your postings above. If I don't understand something you are trying to relay through symbols (type), I will ask you for clarification. If you want to know what those people are about...go into the church and ask them.

I think the popular translation of the verse you are referring to has more to do with Christians not getting caught up in the wealth and power offered here on earth, but to realize that true power and wealth lies elsewhere.

I understand what you are saying. And I'm not trying to throw any accusations
about the faith of those who attend the church. In fact the pastor, when I asked
him about the symbols in an email he said he had to go to the front of the church
and look to see what I was talking about. So you're right I should just forget it
I thought I could find someone on this forum that would know of something that
would explain why out of all the symbols a christian church could use to convey
a message (like this post I'm typing) they would choose three that have known
pagan origins. I guess I'd have to hunt down the guys that built it back in the
1930's to get the answer. It just doesn't make sense to me why a group of people
who fought so hard to get away from the oppression of the Catholic church to
follow a more biblical path would turn around and adopt the same use of pagan
symbolism that the Catholic church had done for centuries. Thats all...
I give up for now, but I will keep checking to see if someone is seeing things from
a discerning Christian's point of view and has any input or has seen the same thing
with any other churches. And I have no agenda... I don't want to convince anyone
of anything that they don't want to believe... just curious. Thanks.

Originally posted by Mordecai81
Sorry... I dont think I explained enough. I said I already know what the symbols mean, I've done extensive research on all of them which by the way...

So if you already "know what the symbols mean" why are you posting here?

I see no conspiracy afoot. (Which IS, after all the WHOLE POINT of this list)
Nothing evil. Just religious symbols....very COMMON ones I might add. So common that anyone with the ability to think could figure out.

What is the reason for your post here? Additional ATS points? hmmm???

[edit on 21-7-2006 by Appak]

Originally posted by Appak
So if you already "know what the symbols mean" why are you posting here?

Did you actually read this thread?

Pagan symbols on the side of a Christian church has conspiracy written all over it. Unfortunately, Dan Brown has made about a JILLION dollars off the idea already.

I may not agree entirely with Mordecai's assessment, but the thread is money...it's exactly what this site is about.

A.K.A. Back off. I think you're way out of line.

I am a member of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and have been since I was born. I went to Lutheran private school and Catholic high school, so I am quite familiar with their symbols. First off there is no such word as Lutheranism, it’s simply called Lutheran. Second there is nothing Occult about the Lutheran Church, so if this is going to be a Christian Bashing thread then I will not bother beyond this post.

The Lutheran Church has nothing to hide, if you want to know what something means simply ask a pastor, they will be quite happy to show you around their Church and answer all your questions, it is not a secrete organization of any kind.

you are correct in your identification, The Eye is symbolic of the Father, the Cross of the Son, and the Dove of the Holy Spirit. In many old churches, this architecture can be seen, including the one I attended for most of my life. Newer Churches have shied away from that Roman Catholic Renascence look. Most newer Churches are much more plain yet modern looking in appearance. If there is any reason why those symbols were used it is because Luther himself came from the Roman Catholic Church, and continued to hold some of their dogmas true throughout his life. Luther had no problem with most of the symbols that the RCC chose, simply with many of their doctrines, therefore much just crossed right over with him after he left.

Luther was a monk of the Augustinian order who saw that there were incorrect doctrines being used through out the church. As a student of law and theology, he set out to change those wrongs. His intentions were to correct inaccurate teachings and abuses within the Roman Catholic Church, he never intended to start the Protestant Reformation. Unfortunately for him, the RCC of his day was so power hungry and corrupt they not only refused to change anything, but he also found they had in fact purposely made up false doctrine to advance their power and wealth. It was not long until he was labeled a heretic and was to be turned over to the Inquisition. Its actually a pretty interesting story how he managed to not be tortured and killed by the Inquisition, you should look it up some time.

The Flag you’re referring to is the Lutheran Church flag; it is simply a flag representative of the church. It is in no way connected with the Rosicrucian’s. Many other churches also have a representative flag for their religions as well.

Lutheran Church Flag
Other Church Flags

Lutherans do not put much meaning into the symbols in their Churches, they are taught what they mean, but they are not representative of anything of an Occult nature. To be honest in a modern Lutheran Church there are not many symbols to begin with, it’s only in this older more Catholic style of architecture. All the symbols are representative of God the Father (Yahweh), God The Son (Christ), and God the Holy Spirit, or of a specific Bible event.

After all its through the grace of God that Lutherans believe they are saved not whether or not they have symbology still hanging around from their Catholic origins.


Essedarius
Lutheran Churches of the Missouri and Wisconsin Synods are bound to be exactly the same as other Lutheran Churches of their synods. The Evangelical Lutheran Church is a schism in the church and the synods do not consider them Lutheran.


[edit on 7/22/2006 by defcon5]