Tesla Roadster

Bah, greenwashing at best. Their products flopped because they didn't want them to succeed cuz they are all old, grey, conservative businessmen now so therefore I do not consider them "in the business" of making electric cars viable and profitable. All IMHO of course.

That may be all the more reason for them to just buy a company that's managed to get established and save themselves the hassle and expense of making it work. They could engineer it to be a specific line solely to compete with the hybrids, while maintaining their land-yacht supremacy. This all is probably pointless speculation, especially surrounding GM, but afterall they are doing the worst in the markets presently. That means they are getting desperate. But if a company with the weight of GM were to undertake this route, I feel it could accelerate the development of this technology and give it an irresistable push into the mainstream. If deals were worked out with the oil companies alternative energy divisions, we could see this technology finally enbraced by the corporate automotive world.

Lol. Why are we arguing wether GM will or will not buy this company(It's a good sign though, that we are arguing who's gonna buy it rather then wether it's viable or not)? It's much more likely that Lotus will buy it before GM will as they are the ones that will be building the damn thing.

Not only that, but GM has it's own troubles, especially with Cash.

I must say, if the Topic was "Electric Car" or something to that effect, I may not have looked at the Post, but with Tesla's moniker on it, I couldn't resist.

And this is one amazing looking vehicle. Screw the Sedan.

This guy has some creative Brain Cells. Man is that use of Electric Current to the Extreme.

As for GM and Such, just think of how far away they are from such a Model.

I know GM currently have a Hybrid Pickup, Silverado Extended Cab with Contractor Grade outlets for Construction Site workers, which also runs on Juice upto about 30 MPH before the Engine kicks in.

But a Top End at 130 MPH would make Driving much nicer.

Someone was asking about the Cost of Gas per Mile. At a $1.10/Liter x 4.5 (approx) = $4.95 CAD/Gallon.

25 MPG (An Average) would make that guess near $0.20 per mile, plus wear and tear.

I run about 100000 Mile annually, (it's a Big Commute) so if the Car lasted four Years, it would be paid for! (Less the R.O.E.)

A question. Did it note what the COSTs where for the Batteries? Just incase they needed replacing.

Excellent find Sardion 2000!

Ciao

Shane

A question. Did it note what the COSTs where for the Batteries? Just incase they needed replacing.

Each Battery is a Li-Ion battery that will be long lasting for at least 5 years, and in my experience, some have lasted longer then that(for a cell phone). Each on is roughly the same size as a Laptop battery so the cost atm per unit may be comparable, though if you buy one now, in 5 years time, Li-Ion is expected to be the standard and will probably cost a lot less then they do now.
www.laptopbattery.net...
Here are some IBM batteries, they range from 50 to 100 buck USD each times that by several thousand and you got one hell of an expense every so often if enough of them cack out on you. How much does it cost to maintain a regular combustion roadster? It would be great to compare costs 5 years down the road. I have a feeling that the Electric car will be cheaper to maintain due to plug and play sensibilities gleaned from the electronics industry.

[edit on 24-7-2006 by sardion2000]

Im sure there would be the same warranty current hybrids carry... usually 100Kmi on the batteries, and the tax breaks help a lot with the eventual cost of replacement. However, these cars could easily become completely recyclable, eliminating the need to replace the batteries when they eventually fail.

And I didn't mean to come off as arguing with the GM bit... it is just a generic example of one way this technology can very rapidly move into the mainstream. Little startup car companies don't always do so great... just look at KIA. A well established corporation with a long standing reputation with the public, pushing an advancement such as this, could prove very profitable for both the industry and consumer.

Originally posted by sardion2000
It would be great to compare costs 5 years down the road. I have a feeling that the Electric car will be cheaper to maintain due to plug and play sensibilities gleaned from the electronics industry.

[edit on 24-7-2006 by sardion2000]

Well with the Mileage I put on my Truck, I was getting Oil Changes every 3 to 4 weeks, and having this serviced with the Dealer would be Approximately $70.00 CAD per Change.

Plugs and Wires for an 8 Cylinder are about $150.00 every 100000 miles.

Theres at least $8000.00 over 5 years?

I can not, "Off the Top" think of "Other Expenses" that would not "Normally" be addressed with an Electric Car. Tires, Tie Rods, Shocks, Bearings etc.... They would seem likely to be occured expenses anyways.

So it seems I may have found the "Rate of Exchange" loss.

Now to find the $80000.00.

But then there's that "Other" Cost. Giving Hydro executives Multi Million Dollar Salaries and Bonuses for providing services built and constructed 30 or 40 years ago. Living in Ontario, Canada, Theres fees for the Debt Reduction, Then the fee to move the Hydro from the Plant to the Outlet. Of course we need to pay for the Generation costs, and then have Rate Premiums applied during Peak Hour Useages. That may cost near $30 or so dollars just to charge it and travel that 250 Miles. Maybe a Hydro Stock Option could be offered along with the Ownership.

And thanks for the Battery figures. I wonder what the extended warranty would Cost?

Ciao

Shane

Sardion,

I was thinking more of having the cells in one big group, or in smaller groups, that make up a unit(s). You only have to take out a few units or one unit at one time. Of course a hydrolic device on wheels would be needed to lift out all the batteries at once.

Of course more efficient solar cells and shorter charge times would help too. And I don't think solar is the only "green" source for energy to charge these things.

Troy

Of course more efficient solar cells and shorter charge times would help too. And I don't think solar is the only "green" source for energy to charge these things.

Yes but combined with a flow battery it becomes rather convenient, especially if that is all you are harvesting the light for. It will pay for the system just that much faster. Wind may not be a good idea for an Urban Setting, lots of uptight neighborhood groups around these days in the sub-urbs.

What other sources did you have in mind?

[edit on 25-7-2006 by sardion2000]

Originally posted by Shane
And thanks for the Battery figures. I wonder what the extended warranty would Cost?

Ciao

Shane

Well that's just the retail figures, wholesale(which Lotus prolly already has a manufacturer already lined up already) will be a lot cheaper(like 50-80 % cheaper depending how volume of the order). I'm sure the aftermarket battery business for s00ping up these babies will heat up shortly after it's launched. I hope they make it modular like a PC as well.

I was thinking more of having the cells in one big group, or in smaller groups, that make up a unit(s). You only have to take out a few units or one unit at one time. Of course a hydrolic device on wheels would be needed to lift out all the batteries at once.

That makes sense.

I think its to small.....which seems to be a tradition among electric cars. But overall I think its a good step up. If they could cut that price tag in half, and have a "quick charge" feature, in which the car would be charged around 90% in mere minutes. If they could do those 2 things...This car would sell like crazy.

Heres the "norm" for electric cars...not something ya wanna be seen in.

It's a roadster, what did you expect? The Sedan is coming soon and I've already convinced my dad to buy one. We're setting up a small scale solar grid tied kit soon, it would be great if we were able to charge the batteries completely through the sun. If it comes in at under 40 grand, then I'm down for sure.

First, stop drooling because that thing will never be legal to drive on American roads. Why? Lithium Ion batteries are highly volatile. Any short (even internal short because of cell damage) or heat in excess of 160-180 degrees will start an uncontrollable chain-reaction that liberates a lot of heat and oxygen. I mean think about this for a second: you are driving in a car with a power source that will explode from exposure to boiling water!

Hydrogen cars have had a tough time proving they can be safe enough for everyday driving. As a result, car companies have used bulletproof composite tanks mounted between the main frame-rails to house the hydrogen fuel. With Li-Ion batteries you are sitting inches from something that will combust without the presence of oxygen and all it needs is an electrical malfunction or minor cell damage to set it off.

I can see the disclaimer on the cars' stickers right now: "This vehicle is not allowed to cross bridges, tunnels or ride on ferries."

Jon

But there are already cars with Large sized Li-Ion batteries on the road in the USA right now driving plugin Hybrids(and it's the Large ones that are the concern with R&D right now, not Laptop sized batteries which are not really prone to exploding when adequete airflow is available).

BTW The talk I've heard on the news is in re-training Emergency response, I have not heard a whisper of a ban as of yet.

I don't know of any li-ion cars that are street legal today. Most electric cars are lead-acid batteries (much safer) and the newest are using nickel metal hydride batteries which is little more than a toxic waste dump in your back-seat - yay!

Electric cars sound great on the surface but do nothing to help the environment. In fact, I find it hard to understand how putting hundreds of pounds of toxic materials in a car will help anyone - well unless you happen to own a lithium mine.

Jon

I don't know of any li-ion cars that are street legal today.

You can buy street-legal Plug In kits with a Li-Ion upgrade. A newsprogram on a local newstation was talking about the very safety considerations you mentioned will make them illigal and the tone of the spokesman for the safety board(in my country) seems to think retraining(the ER Personell) was the only needed safeguard.

Most electric cars are lead-acid batteries (much safer) and the newest are using nickel metal hydride batteries which is little more than a toxic waste dump in your back-seat - yay!

Aren't batteries recyclable? Most of the batteries I've burned through, including two Laptop Li-Ions, were recycled.

Electric cars sound great on the surface but do nothing to help the environment.

Oil and Gas Industry is far worse as when you burn gasoline there is no chance in recycling it. Once it's used it's used. Not so with Batteries. If demand goes up high enough for this application, you could be seeing industry initiatives to get the user to return it back to them, rather then they pay a premium for the recycled products from a 3rd party.

I'm not saying that Electric Cars will take over the road like SUVs did in the 90s. I think it will play a significant part though as many people will look at the economics and seriously consider it(Like I am and several of my family members).

In fact, I find it hard to understand how putting hundreds of pounds of toxic materials in a car will help anyone - well unless you happen to own a lithium mine.

Battery technology, in it's current state, is rapidly evolving and improving, and there are a number of non-volatile and less-toxic replacement candidates for Li-Ion in the works. Look up Supercapacitors for one, really interesting subject.

Also, recent advances in evaporative cooling applied to the Tesla, will make overheating issues moot.

BTW, What do you think is more sustainable for the next hundred year?

- Increased Status-Quo development

- Complete and total reliance on Biofuel(That has problem of it's own)

- Regression to a more "Austere" lifestyle(Outhouses and Bricks made of crap)

- A Mix of new technologies, conservation strategies, and wider use of existing technologies.

Originally posted by sardion2000
Battery technology, in it's current state, is rapidly evolving and improving, and there are a number of non-volatile and less-toxic replacement candidates for Li-Ion in the works. Look up Supercapacitors for one, really interesting subject.

Also, recent advances in evaporative cooling applied to the Tesla, will make overheating issues moot.

BTW, What do you think is more sustainable for the next hundred year?

- Increased Status-Quo development

- Complete and total reliance on Biofuel(That has problem of it's own)

- Regression to a more "Austere" lifestyle(Outhouses and Bricks made of crap)

- A Mix of new technologies, conservation strategies, and wider use of existing technologies.

I consider batteries to be more of a "status-quo" development since they do nothing to eliminate our dependence on fossil fuels, have been around forever, and are far too expensive for the consumer.

My problem with "battery-power" is that like "hydrogen-fuel" it is only a way of hiding the vilified hydrocarbons from the gullible masses. Where does the electricity for creating the hydrogen or charging the batteries come from? A large percentage of the world's countries produce electricity by buring coal or natural gas. There are only a few countries with nearly a complete reliance on either nuclear, geothermal, or hydroelectric power production. In those places batteries may make environmental or economic sense but batteries are not a panacea in many countries like the US.

Is it any cheaper? We will see fully electric cars only when they can be provable cheaper than the fossil fuel alternatives.
For example, the equivilent of a 130 horsepower engine would take 97 kilowatts of electricity to produce. After driving for an hour the gasoline engine would consume around 1-2 gallons of gasoline or about $4-8 US. The electric car would have consumed 97 KWh for the same work at a cost of about $10 - $20 US depending on the price per KWh* for production and delivery.

Stated another way: every hour you drive an electric car you are consuming the equivilent to an entire summer's day of household electricity consumption - a two-story house with central AC and a pool.

Jon

*Where I live we use mostly natural gas for generating power. The current rate is around $0.10 per KWh for generation and $0.07 per KWh for delivery. That would come out to about $16.50 for a nice hour-long drive in today's prices.

You're forgetting something...

iht.com

The Roadster's advantage is that it avoids gasoline at $3 a gallon. At the average national retail price for electricity, and fuel economy of 200 watt- hours per mile, the Roadster will travel 150 miles on the price of a gallon of unleaded regular.

It's not about max output it's about sustained usage.

[edit on 26-7-2006 by apc]

Great find sardion.

PS. Can anyone lend me 80 grand? I sledom covet but this, I want.

Originally posted by apc
You're forgetting something...

iht.com

The Roadster's advantage is that it avoids gasoline at $3 a gallon. At the average national retail price for electricity, and fuel economy of 200 watt- hours per mile, the Roadster will travel 150 miles on the price of a gallon of unleaded regular.

It's not about max output it's about sustained usage.

I'm not forgetting anything, I am simply able to "do the math." Do you know how much power 200 watt-hour per mile is at highway speeds? About 13.4 horsepower-hours! I would LOVE to see you get anywhere with that much monstrous power. I doubt you could overcome drag at highway speeds with that amount of power.

What they are saying is that going 5 mph you can get amazing fuel efficiency with electric cars but at higher (normal) speeds, not so much. Great innovation there! I can put a motorcycle engine in my car and get a top speed of 5 mph with roughly the same (probably better) fuel efficiency.

Both the car mentioned in that article have worse fuel efficiency than my hypothetical 130hp car and one of them has nearly the same efficiency as I used in my previous post when only using half its max power output!

Jon