OK, You Navy Types, Help Us Understand This One

Yesterday, Tuesday, July 18, the brand new cruise ship, the Crown Princess sailing out of Port Canaveral, FL, on its maiden voyage, rolled (listed is in some reports) 15 degrees to starboard. The ship was 11 miles off the Florida coast. One passenger opined that if the ship had rolled a further 20 degrees, it would have been a rerun of the movie, The Poseidon Story.

The ship slowly righted itself, in 30 to 40 seconds. No other incidents were reported. With some irony, the movie set for the evening was “The Titanic.” The story did not say, but I assume it was cancelled.

There is no immediate explanation for this occurrence. The water was calm and no rogue waves were reported. There is some concern that the first word received by the Coast Guard came from the parents of a woman injured onboard who called them. The parents in turn called the CG. The CG said it took them 10 minute to raise the ship. Not good.

Another cruise liner owned by the same company sustained a similar event earlier this year. On a vessel sailing out of Port Galveston, rolled but the report did not say how far. It did say that out of 2,600 passengers, 27 were injured along with 10 of the crew. It that case, a report said “human error” was to blame.

On the Crown Princess, out of 3,100 passengers and 1,200 crew, 270 reported injuries and 97 were taken to the hospital, 2 of them passengers listed in critical condition.

I assume all modern cruise ships have computer controlled gyroscopic stability devices. I assume there are “wings” or flippers on the ship that are moved to counter any rolling motion force caused by the oceans movement. I suppose if the wings on one side were working and the other side did not, it could cause a ship to roll, but 15 degrees seems to be a lot of roll in smooth seas for a ship that is dry weight of 131,000 tons, and 951 feet overall length.

A cruise line spokeswoman said all passengers will receive a full refund on docking at New York, the port of debarkation. OTOH, Mr. James Hall, former chairman of the NTSB said he hoped this incident will result in strengthening the operating rules and passenger safety guidelines of cruise industry ships.

OK, You Navy Types, Help Us Understand This One

Q1. What happened?
Q2. How dangerous was it?
Q3. Will this happen again?
Q4. Can fault or blame be pinpointed?

I would hazard a guess that the ships stabilization system either malfunctioned or had a human error.

It's not the WAVES, it them swells...

While it's possible that the ship slipped into a trough and got "rolled." (not unlike the passengers who were undoubtedly rolled by the cruise line when they booked their passage), I would go the malfunction/human error route.

Just like our old Indy days, eh Jim?

More than you ever wanted to know about waves.


[edit on 19/7/2006 by Mirthful Me]

Even us AF types appreciate a nice set of swells. I've been on the USS Saratoga when it was in service out of Mayport FL. I live just down the road in Jax. I did 10 days over and 10 days back from SF to Yokohama on the WA Mann going over but cannot learn what ship I came back on. I’ve written to St Louis for my records 2 times, but I get the same stuff back and those orders are not included. I do recall the return was on a Merchant Marine operated vessel and we were not “allowed” to scrape paint in our spare time, as we were “allowed” to do on the USN Mann. The Navy definitely does not like the ‘Idle hands’ concept.

Thanks for your response.




[edit on 7/19/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by Mirthful Me
It's not the WAVES, it them swells...

Just like our old Indy days, eh Jim?

More than you ever wanted to know about waves.


[edit on 19/7/2006 by Mirthful Me]

All I know is the bigger the waves the Indy went through, the better I slept.

Originally posted by donwhite
Q1. What happened?

Something or Someone caused the ship to list approximately 15 degrees in a few seconds.

Q2. How dangerous was it?

According to crew members it could have been disastrous and many were concerned there might have been passengers who went overboard fortunately that was not the case

Q3. Will this happen again?

Uneducated guess would be yes since the very same thing happened to one of its sister ships recently.

Q4. Can fault or blame be pinpointed?

Again my uneducated guess would be yes it can be pinpointed. All new cruise ships are equipped with devices similar to black boxes that are on aircraft.

Now the question I would have is how long is the data retained because this did just happen recently to its sister ship one would need the data from both recorders to compare while trying to establish the actual cause.

Knowing that it has been reported the ship was in calm waters, I doubt the ships stabilizers would have been deployed. so my guess is a computer malfunctioned which in turn allowed the azi-pods to rotate over 180 degrees and possibly up to 360 which caused the sudden rocking.

Third-generation Azipod
The first version of the Azipod system was developed for icebreakers, passenger ships, and tankers. The second-generation system – or Compact Azipod – was designed primarily for smaller ships, such as river vessels, small ferries, fishing boats, and drilling rigs. The latest Azipod generation, currently in the launch phase, is known as the CRP Azipod. Developed jointly by ABB and Samsung, this is suitable for a wide range of ships, from oil and LNG tankers to RoRo and RoPax vessels.

Based on the principle of contra-rotating propulsion (CRP), this new system consists of a conventional propeller system and an Azipod rudder-propeller rotating in opposite directions. The Azipod unit is located in line with the shaft-driven main propeller, without being physically connected to it, and offers an alternative to designs that use two propeller shafts.


Source

Put in laymans terms what it means is; ships can now literally turn on a dime if the crew wants, so you can imagine what might happen if it was done on accident by a computer malfunction or perhaps human error of turning off a switch when it should be on.

I have to admit I am somewhat skeptical when it comes to it being just a comuter error on its own. Recent programs on modern liners on the history channel stated they have perhaps 3 back ups for each system so I highly doubt all failed at once, which leaves us with the possibility that a conspiracy was in play to sink the ship by the owners or perhaps a plan well orchestrated by terrorists that failed. The terrorist angle only comes to mind after seeing the majority of the crew 1200 were foreign nationals and not Americans.
Crew Source



[edit on 7/20/2006 by shots]

posted by shots

According to crew members it could have been disastrous and many were concerned there might have been passengers who went overboard fortunately that was not the case . . one would need the data from both recorders to compare while trying to establish the actual cause. Put in layman’s terms what it means is; ships can now literally turn on a dime if the crew wants, so you can imagine what might happen if it was done on accident by a computer malfunction or perhaps human error of turning off a switch when it should be on.

I have to admit I am somewhat skeptical when it comes to it being just a computer error on its own. Recent programs on modern liners on the history channel stated they have perhaps 3 back ups for each system so I highly doubt all failed at once, which leaves us with the possibility that a conspiracy was in play to sink the ship by the owners or perhaps a plan well orchestrated by terrorists that failed. The terrorist angle only comes to mind after seeing the majority of the crew 1,200 were foreign nationals and not Americans.

Thanks, Shots for the tech info and walk-me-through explanation. Me, I’m not sure there has been a ship of much size in the last half century that featured an “American” crew. By “American” I suppose you’re thinking of WASP types? It has been my (limited) experience that very few Americans are working on ships. 1) There is no effective union. 2) Owners don’t want to hire expensive labor when they can hire cheap labor. 3) Most “American” ships are not of US registry, but Liberia, Panama and etc. Which is to avoid most civilized nation’s regs and rules and etc. It’s an owner’s paradise! Of course, the “civilized” nations permit this to happen. So, you’re back to money - money - money. CFR. Campaign Finance Reform.

Loyalty to employers is not ethnicity based. It is related to the employer’s conduct.



[edit on 7/20/2006 by donwhite]

Don't most larger ships have some form of ballast? If so, perhaps something happened that caused a shift in that, leading to the listing?

Originally posted by cmdrkeenkid
Don't most larger ships have some form of ballast? If so, perhaps something happened that caused a shift in that, leading to the listing?

They certainly do, cruise ships generally use "water ballast" in the form of tanks that can be flooded to offset the consumption of fuel (bunker) oil. This is the most economical method, but causes a bit of a stir with the environmentalist.

I heard about this whilst I was at work and remembered seeing a video from one of the passengers.

I heard that there was a problem with the steering on the ship.

Here is a link, and I think there is another link to the passengers video.

cbs4.com...

posted by Mindwalker

I heard about this at work and remembered seeing a video from one of the passengers. I heard that there was a problem with the steering on the ship. Here is a link, [Edited by Don W]

Thanks, M/W. The link’s narrator said the ship listed 38 to 45 degrees for 15 seconds. The AP written report said it was 15 degrees list for 30-40 seconds. Based on Shot’s explanation I think the 15 degree list is correct.

The passenger movie did not show anything but broken glass on the floor. Not much help. Not your fault, M/W. I needed to see it to learn if it did have helpful footage. I saw none.

Don if you have time and find its next airing watch modern marvels on the history channel for a show titled

"Icebreakers"
Icebreaker ships plow headlong into one of nature's most formidable barriers.


It aired two times today and the TV guide does not show any more airings for this month, but the newest Great Lakes Ice Breaker (GLIB) has Azipods and they showed tank tests where they used them for testing prior to construction and in the tank, the model ship appeared to list at least 15 degrees when they turned them from side to side. Oddly enough they use the stern of the ship to break Ice that way. After seeing the program today and knowing that they are now blaming the steering, I do think it could be a strong possibility, although I certainly would not rule out others causes.


[edit on 7/20/2006 by shots]

Yeah, the Great Lakes Ice Breakers are amazing. It's funny to see them from the air, because all you see is ice, then a breaker, then a freighter closely behind, and then the water refreezing not too far behind the freighter. I think I have some pictures, so I'll try and find them...

That being said, I had never heard of azipods before this thread. I've done a bit of reading up on them and they sound like an amazing piece of technology. Previously I had just thought they would have just had ballasts to compensate for different things.

Originally posted by cmdrkeenkid
That being said, I had never heard of azipods before this thread. I've done a bit of reading up on them and they sound like an amazing piece of technology. Previously I had just thought they would have just had ballasts to compensate for different things.

They do have ballast however I doubt it could have been discharged so fast as to cause a list in just seconds then refilled just as fast to correct the list again in a matter of seconds.

The GLIB shown on the history channel is the new replacement for the Mackinaw Photo Gallery here



Image is of the azipods on the ship and the gallery is from the launching.

I am also following the progress of this alledged inspection and something smells big time. The ship is due back in NY Saturday and will sail on another shorter cruise that had its schedule shortened because of the incident.

Source

Possible cover Up???????



[edit on 7/21/2006 by shots]

Yeah, they just decommissioned the Mackinaw last month. Aside from being one of the oldest ships in the fleet, it was also one of the largest, which gave it plenty of time to break ice for the larger ships. The good thing about it was that she was built different from other boats in her class, allowing it to break ice in the shallower waters. I don't know much about the replacement, but hopefully they gave it that capability as well.

Anyway, I wasn't sure how quickly they could empty and refill the ballasts. I thought maybe they had some form of high volume emergency pumps.

EDIT: Had my cutters mixed up.

[edit on 7/21/2006 by cmdrkeenkid]

Me too, Commander, on azipods, which I guess is pentagon-speak for azimuth (direction) pod. Like an idea from OBC? Actually, Shot, I recall seeing this technology in a pictorial drawing on the cover of Mechanix Illustrated 30-40 yeas ago. Well, I think I did. Don't ask me for a link. but that would have been in its conceptual stage and it would take a long time to move a low priority item into the worlds largest cruise ship. Low priority means it is not the SDI kind of thing. Shot, you mentioned something then took it back. The “dumping” of the ballast. I’m wondering if the Princess Lines are “dumping” sewage? This "roll" event happened 11.5 miles off the Florida coast. The February event happened in the Gulf of Mexico. Maybe this is standard practice and it went awry? It could be just a coincidence but as a Green person, I’m very suspicious. 3,100 passengers and 1,200 crew can create a lot of waste water over a 7 day period?

Thx for the heads-up on the icebreakers, Shot. I hate to admit it but I run History Channel for background. Maybe that hints how old I am.



[edit on 7/21/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by cmdrkeenkid

EDIT: Had my cutters mixed up.

No you didn't have them mixed up the new one is named the same as the old one

I have been trying to find info on the pumps and found some info, but from what I can determine with my limited knowledge, they do not look all that big that they could handle the volumes needed in my mind. Unfortunately they do not give the pumping capacity of the pumps, they just list the filtering capacity in microns

They cannot pump ballast that quickly. The only vessels which can pump ballast that quickly is a submarine. and it is not pumped it is blown by air.

Sounds like this ship had a steering problem under way. They lost control of their aziopods. I believe these new ships are some kind of fly by wire arrangement. Electronic control of the steering pods. Computer control in like manner to new aircraft types coming on line. If it is a computer program..they need to check thier computers in addition to the simple mechanic/electrical portions. Especially if they had similar problems on another of their cruise ships. I think also they have flight data recorders on these new ships..just like airliners.
Yes it can be very dangerous to crew,passengers and ship.

I have seen these aziopods in the drydocks here at this shipyard. It is a intresting set up.

Thanks,
Orangetom