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So when is America's new class of aircraft carriers coming to America's arsenal?

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posted on Jul, 21 2006 @ 12:11 PM
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Ah yes, I forgot about the dredged TWAT, always makes things complicating. Still, there have been two previous ships named USS Crusader. BTW I don’t approve of USS Regime Change or Vietnam; I would go more for USS Liberator, kind of reflects what we’re all about don’t you think?

[edit on 21-7-2006 by WestPoint23]




posted on Jul, 21 2006 @ 12:47 PM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
Ah yes, I forgot about the dredged TWAT, always makes things complicating. Still, there have been two previous ships named USS Crusader. BTW I don’t approve of USS Regime Change or Vietnam; I would go more for USS Liberator, kind of reflects what we’re all about don’t you think?


USS Vietnam - named in honor of one of America's great victories and you don't approve????

USS Liberator named after the liberation of the African-Americans in the 1970s?

USS Immigrant would be good - acknowledging the vital services illegal immigrants do for the US nation.



posted on Jul, 21 2006 @ 01:20 PM
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I believe you are correct. At one time there was debate on calling the carrier numbered CVN 75 the United States. It wound up being the Harry S Truman.
As I recall this was the time period that I began to understand that the NWO types would never allow a name which would glorify anything Yank..or patriotically the United States. They will allow names after their boot lackys....those who work for them and accomplish their goals. Enterprise fits perfectly within this goal...the United States does not. You dont have to buy into that one ..It has just become a pattern operating in the back of my mind for some time now..even before the naming of the Harry S Truman this pattern was taking shape in my thinking.

One of the greatest fingerprints of taking a huge bite out of this kind of operating philosophy is the transference of Guilt...and Remorse...almost a staple in public education and news media coverage now days. We must be made to feel guilty as to who and what we are as Americans. No thanks ...not intrested. Especially since I know a bit about the history of the rest of the world...especially Europe and the UK.
As you appropriately stated...not biting in this guilt feeling/transference. Not intrested.

Thanks for your post West Point,
Orangetom



posted on Jul, 21 2006 @ 01:26 PM
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Orangetom, you think this has something to do with the fate of USS America (CV-66)? It wasn’t preserved like the former crew wanted; it was sunk in explosive tests.



posted on Jul, 21 2006 @ 08:58 PM
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I think USS Destroy Humanity is the most appropriate name.

Anyway, I think the construction of these new carriers is absolutely absurd. There is absolutely no reason to build these other than to supply the military-industrial complex with jobs and revenue. We already have twelve immensively expensive carriers, the only one needing to be retired/replaced is the Kitty Hawk.

Its just a complete mismanagement and misallocation of resources.



posted on Jul, 21 2006 @ 09:40 PM
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There’s a show on The Military Channel called X-Carrier, it pretty much covers everything about the CVN-21 project and why we need it. I suggest you try to watch it, next airing is tonight at 11:00 PM EST.

By the way Orangetom is CVN-78 going to be designed in parts indoors or what? I think they were concerned with damage and delay caused by weather.



posted on Jul, 21 2006 @ 11:24 PM
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Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
I think USS Destroy Humanity is the most appropriate name.

Anyway, I think the construction of these new carriers is absolutely absurd. There is absolutely no reason to build these other than to supply the military-industrial complex with jobs and revenue. We already have twelve immensively expensive carriers, the only one needing to be retired/replaced is the Kitty Hawk.

Its just a complete mismanagement and misallocation of resources.


So we should just keep using carriers built in the 60s, that have no more room to expand, or are incapable of some of the new technology coming out. Sure, let's just keep using them until they are falling apart. Oh wait, we're already starting to see that happen.
Read Orangetom's post about how hard it is to maintain Enterprise. All of the carriers will reach that point in the not distant future.



posted on Jul, 22 2006 @ 01:29 AM
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Just got off work here.

As to the America..West Point...No I dont think that is what happened to the America. But your point is intresting. Ships like the battleship Wisconson museum over in Norfolk are very costly to maintain. The federal government does not want to keep shelling out despirately needed moneys to help maintain such ships as museums. In addition there is also the liabilitys of visitors tresspassing into areas they shouldnt. I can assure you that when you climb the ladders going up and down into the shaft alleys on carriers...if you dont know what you are doing you can get crippled for life or killed if you fall off these ladders. It is like some 60 plus feet...straight up and down. THey often put some kind of nets around the different levels of these ladders so that if you fall you can sometimes be caught by the nets or at least slowed down. Ive been up and down them with my tool bag/box. I carry a rope when I can and rope the box down then follow with all arms and legs..keeps you in shape..I mean to tell you.
States themselved do not have such moneys either. Most of the time when you go onboard a ship like this most areas are closed off to the public for reasons of liability. Also you dont want someone messing with valves and such for which they dont know what they are operating.
Carriers are very large ships. I've known of guys having heart attacks working on them and people searched for over a hour and a half before they found them. This guy I knew was long dead before found.

I dont think it was because of the name per se..no. I think they will re use the name America before they use the name the USS United States.

As to the next carrier being built indoors. Alot of the sub assemblies will be built or built partly indoors in the shops..fabrication and such. They are then moved to outside plattens where many of these pieces are formed and welded into the various compartments and then sub assemblys or modules. Sort of like modular homes..they build whole assemblys and then lower them into place in the drydocks. Lots of the pictures you see in construction are of thes huge modules being raised then lowered into place. It is sometimes creepy being around a load that big and heavy when you realize how much dead weight it actually is.
Yes they still lose time to weather but not as badly as was done in the olde days.
There is talk of completely covering the dry dock to build the carriers mostly under shelters..only opening it up to move in modules. What a step up that would be but expensive to do so. Remember those pictures you see..that is a 900 ton crane over that drydock. Its huge..and I mean huge!!

Zaphod58,
Yes the Enterprise is expensive to maintain. This is true of any ship or even aircraft as they age..they simply spend more time in repairs than on jobs/missions.
This was true of the F14 Tomcats before they retired most of them. By the paperwork which accompanied every job or flight ..they were able to track the maintenance hours verses the flight hours. It becomes obvious after so many years that more and more time is spent in repairs than on missions.
It is the same for the Kennedy and Kittyhawk. These are among the oldest carriers in operation.

I will tell you guys something about carriers and ships...construction and such that will not be in the papers on on the news nor in pubic education.

THe US Navy has wanted a minimum of a 12 carrier Navy to meet its goals for the future.
At any one time the Navy will have one to two carriers in a shipyard or drydock for various levels of maintenance/repairs/upgrades et al.
There will be at least one carrier in a shipyard somewhere for a major overhaul lasting about three years. You are now down to nine carriers available for missions.
You will have one to two carriers also on the piers somewhere undergoing repairs in a not ready state...but can be ready in about two to three weeks.
You will also have at least one carrier in a state ready to be retired or scrapped at any given time...it is simply worn out..
This leaves you with a carrier fleet at any given time of six carriers availiable to go to war or use for diplomacy if needed.
Retiring a carrier means less mission capability. This means that no matter what BS the Government "experts" balk about ...you must be building at least one carrier at all times to replace the worn out ones ready to come off the line.
You must be building a replacement carrier at all times if you intend to maintain such naval capabilities.
Do not let any Congressmen or Senators BS you. They are lying through their teeth and playing cheap politics with the issues here.
If you let delays go on for to long the carriers on the other end are wearing out that much faster. Just ask the Brits and the French. THey take even longer than us to get it together. Much longer.
This includes the submarine fleets too..they to are wearing out. EVen the Cruisers...wearing out.
I was quite surprised to find out how fast the Navy can wear out even a new ship.
I have seen boats come back into the drydocks and was surprised at how fast many little things wear out under constant usage...in only one year after delivery. It was quite a eye opener for me to realize this.
So try to think what this mean keeping track of all this on a ship, or a fleet , Scheduling repairs..drydock time ..etc etc..much less..new construction. It is just a huge ..huge...huge task. It boggles the mind.
Then throw in a Air headed politician (thats the nice way to say it) educated in the public system who is trying to get elected/re elected on a handpicked "victimization" issue...you know.."I feel your pain!!!!". Good grief..what a mess.

Well I think you guys get the picture. I could go on for awhile on that but best not in this thread.

You have to be building one all the time to maintain these commitment levels. Dont let them lie to you for cheap politics.

Thanks for your posts guys,
Orangetom



posted on Jul, 22 2006 @ 04:28 AM
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ah , the thorny problem of what to name ships , why is it such an issue to so many people ?? And not only that , the people [ armchair admirals ] who get most aggiteate , and have most to say about the merits and demerits of possible names for new vessels are the ones who will have zero real say , and really least reason to be concerned -- they will never serve on the vessel .

one prime fact is that navies now have more " illustrious " names than vessels -- so all the names people wantcannot be used . get over it

so despite thier noble pedigree , many names must fall by the wayside , as navies simply cannot use more names than thy have vessels -- and it would be unthinkable to to name a new fleeet tug " USS enterprise " , or a mine sweeper " USS arizona "

many of the names suggested in this thread , while often posted in jest - are to be blunt just plain idiotic
.

even real names of stricken vessels are not considered taboo , the RN is never likley to get another HMS terror , or revenge - both names that were borne with honour aboard multiple past vessels .

likewise HMS niger , zulu , and others are never going to grace an RN vessel again . because attitudes have changed .

bottom line is , it is just a name .

the ship will preform just as well what ever name and # number is assigned to her , and the ships comany will serve with honour , upholding the finest traditions of thier navy . what ever name the committe selects .

thats right -- it is decided by comitee - so multiple names are short listed , and no idiotic ones ever make it to the short list -- sadly many eminent names are also excluded , for the reasons outlined above .

but when it comes to the final vote -- every name under consideration will be fitting moniker for the new vessel -- and its crew will wear its ribbon with pride , and the ship still will not give a toss

its just a name .



posted on Jul, 22 2006 @ 07:25 AM
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Originally posted by deltaboy

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Yeah exactly, we’ve already had too many Enterprises, its time for a bold name, nothing says Uncle Sam wants you to change your policy better than USS America showing up near your coast.


(shrugs) the U.S. Navy is just following what the Brits are following when renaming a ship. How many ships have been repeatedly name the Trafalgar? Enterprise is an awesome name for the new class. Dreadnought sounds good?


The US should continue with the tradition and everyone knows the USS Enterprise. The UK Royal Navy's HMS Enterprise is a hydrographic/oceanographic survey ship and the tenth ship to bear the name - so is a tad smaller than the its American namesake. The first HMS Enterprise was a sixth rate ship of the line captured from the French and commissioned in 1705.

Regards

Regards



posted on Jul, 22 2006 @ 09:47 AM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999
As to the America..West Point...No I dont think that is what happened to the America. But your point is intresting. Ships like the battleship Wisconson museum over in Norfolk are very costly to maintain. The federal government does not want to keep shelling out despirately needed moneys to help maintain such ships as museums. In addition there is also the liabilitys of visitors tresspassing into areas they shouldnt. I can assure you that when you climb the ladders going up and down into the shaft alleys on carriers...if you dont know what you are doing you can get crippled for life or killed if you fall off these ladders. It is like some 60 plus feet...straight up and down. THey often put some kind of nets around the different levels of these ladders so that if you fall you can sometimes be caught by the nets or at least slowed down. Ive been up and down them with my tool bag/box. I carry a rope when I can and rope the box down then follow with all arms and legs..keeps you in shape..I mean to tell you.


Fortunately, the Navy stepped in the right direction by striking both the Iowa and the Wisconsin from the Register. Now, let's hope they don't become museums. Those ships are absolutely frightening, even if you're trained to serve onboard them.



States themselved do not have such moneys either. Most of the time when you go onboard a ship like this most areas are closed off to the public for reasons of liability. Also you dont want someone messing with valves and such for which they dont know what they are operating.
Carriers are very large ships. I've known of guys having heart attacks working on them and people searched for over a hour and a half before they found them. This guy I knew was long dead before found.


This is one of the reasons I am against using retired military vessels as museums. They are simply far too dangerous and the number of places closed off are absolutely absurd, its like ripping off the tourists.



I will tell you guys something about carriers and ships...construction and such that will not be in the papers on on the news nor in pubic education.


Of coruse it won't be in the papers or public education. The average American doesn't care about carriers and warships. Can't say I blame them either.



Do not let any Congressmen or Senators BS you. They are lying through their teeth and playing cheap politics with the issues here.

Then throw in a Air headed politician (thats the nice way to say it) educated in the public system who is trying to get elected/re elected on a handpicked "victimization" issue...you know.."I feel your pain!!!!". Good grief..what a mess.

You have to be building one all the time to maintain these commitment levels. Dont let them lie to you for cheap politics.


You' be wrong on that. You'd be surprised at how much Congressmen and Senators support the building of aircraft carriers and warships. As I stated earlier, they provide lots of jobs and keep the military-industrial complex in power. Trent Lott was once quoted as saying that he would "do anything" to keep the Ingalls Shipyard in his home state of Mississippi in business.
Seriously, I'm not sure where you got that. If it means more jobs for their individual constituencies, politicians do exactly the opposite of what you say. Some will even break ranks with their president or their own party line if jobs and revenue are at stake.
You got one thing right, though. It is cheap politics.

That said, what I failed state in my first post was that I think the construction of new carriers needs to change, radically. Perhaps it was the volatile Cold War environment and the World War II high, but I believe the aircraft carrier program was a lot like the space shuttle program, based on percieved and assumed performance over costs rather than a more balanced view of the situation. As we saw in the Persian Gulf War, the U.S. Navy floated better than it actually fought and the costs of maintaining the ships, as I stated before, have been immense, almost unfair in my view. If building a new carrier is going to cut some costs in the long run, then I suppose I am wrong and we do need new carriers soon. But otherwise, I'm not sure how any of this really changes the approach the military takes to building carriers.

I look forward to USS Destroy Humanity.


Here's a link for those interested to take a look at.

Costing the CVN-21: A DID Primer

[edit on 22-7-2006 by sweatmonicaIdo]



posted on Jul, 22 2006 @ 10:21 AM
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I have seen little to beat the absolute ignorance of many politicians. While the public is not particularly bright it is the brashness of politicians which needs to be shed light on in this country.

I am much more aware than are most of the manner in which the US Government is depreciating or as we improperly use the term ...Inflating ..the value of the American Dollar by deficit spending. This in the long run causes prices to rise as the dollar buys less and less..because they keep issuing more dollars for Government projects. The produce no real goods for these dollars issued..prices cannot help but rise against this influx of new dollars.

An they have the brashness and stupidity to complain about the rise in costs that they are causing. The costs of these new ships is the cost the companys require while operating against a depreciated/inflated dollar over the life of the contract....and still make a profit. This is a concept never brought out when one sees news articles on the costs. Look for it if you can.
Remember something. The US Navy operates what is called Navy Shipyards. Pearl Harbor is one of them. The Portsmouth Naval Shipyard is another. You do not hear what the operating budgets are for these yards..it is not made public. Also remember...if these yards were that good they would be building carriers, cruisers, and submarines from the ground up. To do so would take five times as long and cost ten times as much. Congress knows this but does not make this information public. This is known information in the trades. You never hear a Congressman or a Senator speak of this either. THese Government yards do not have to justify thier budgets in the manner as do private shipyards.

Dont misunderstand me..private buisnesses take out loans too but they must over time offset these loans with product/goods and services to overall economy. Government does not do this...yet has access to loans by deficit ....unlimited. (See the publication "The National Debt" Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis)

This buisness of financing and the national debt is much more sinister and devastating than the public is allowed to know. As you stated..it also gets people elected.

I am also aware that social programs financed by Government are using up a much larger portion of the US Government budget than is the military. This is a figure the Government is not wont to quote or make public while they are complaining about military expenditures. They are causing the rise in costs in all of these items...every one by deficit spending.

I know exactly what you mean by Tren Lott. Here I have seen before he passed away ..Herbert Bateman and also John Warner pumping flesh at the gates of this yard. I dont particularly care for either of them as you never see them except at election time. The same would be true of Trent Lott.
Same could be said for Electric Boat up in the state of Conneticuit. This state being so small has people working in this shipyard from many of the surrounding states. This means it has many more senators and congressmen voting for it than have for example Mississippi. Same thing compared to this yard here.
Same thing here for other government programs. How many states do you know which will turn down funds for more education or educational programs..welfare programs.

I have had debates with people from Europe and the Uk. They think we should dump all this military spending and support more of give away programs like medical and more education....which have become jobs programs...not necessarily for the benifit of the public. Education especially. These countrys would be all for this while looking down their long noses at us...until they are in trouble and need bailing out as was the case in two world wars. Then they will look down thier noses at us for not being able to help them. It is a no win situation for us with most of these nations. I dont have any more respect for them than I do most of our own government deficit spending.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Jul, 22 2006 @ 10:47 AM
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You seriously need to think about this statement of yours..

You posted:

"Of coruse it won't be in the papers or public education. The average American doesn't care about carriers and warships. Can't say I blame them either. "

I agree..the average American..."how about those Lakers...those Redskins. Amereican Idol" etc etc etc.


Until........!!!! Until they are in trouble in places like Lebanon..or Serria Leone etc etc. And it has happened over and over.
Incredibly in times like this many of them have the asinine stupidity to want to be totally taken care of like they were back home and not in a emergency situation. This is obvious in some of the interviews of the people being evacuated from Lebanon. Asinine.
I saw this stuipidity around here after Hurricane Isabel. People expecting to be served but making no real preparations themselves beforehand. IN hurricane Katrina..people were insulted by the government passing out MRE meals. Astonishing ...like someone owed them to put up a resteraunt meal for them..to serve them up to thier standards. Really stupid.

This is what passes for greatness among many peoples ..including senators and congressmen who have been publically educated...ie...television educated.
They think mostly about fun and comforts until they are in trouble and then they look for someone else to blame..if they need bailing out.

In light of recent events in places like Serria Leone and Lebanon ..you need to think about what you are saying. Also this will not be the last time our military will go to such places to evacuate our peoples.

YOu are correct about the Average American....however ...I do blame them for thier educated stupidity. Many Americans have been breast fed so long they are dumb enought to think it is deserved and owed to them..even in foreign lands.

While on that subject...remember what our militarys did to render aid to those countrys stricken by that Tsunami a couple of years ago. And many of them still look down their long noses at us..as if we owe it to them or insulted them....including some Americans.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Jul, 22 2006 @ 10:50 AM
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One trend the Navy likes and one that its going with is less personnel and more autonomy for ships, 60% of the Navy’s budget is in some way allocated for service members, think about that, 60%. I believe CVN-78 will have around 800 less crewmembers than the previous Nimitz class, this may not sound like much but it translates into 5 Billion worth of savings over the ships lifetime. Future ship classes will be designed to be as autonomous as possible so that the Navy can have more money for maintenance and repairs, procurement, and research. Many ship classes have been retired due to this fact, the ships themselves still had service life left in them but the huge cost of the crew made repairing and maintaining them financial suicide.

Any resemblance of CVN-78 to previous Nimitz carriers is purely cosmetic, they have the same number of decks and such but the internal technology and systems are way beyond what current carriers use. CVN-78 is designed to accommodate future technology and upgrades, its uses a system of open architecture and one that allows for easy reconfiguration of the internal layout. In a Nimitz ship you only get one shot to place the internal components, if you mess up or want to change something you have to start cutting.

CVN-78 will also have a much much more efficient power plant system, it will produce three times more power and energy than a Nimitz can produce, this in turn could allow future DEW system which require a lot of power to be placed on the ship. And last but not least it will have a new propeller, the first real significant change of the propeller since super-carriers were being designed in the 50’s. And that's just the tip of iceberg of why CVN-21 (as of now unnamed class) is better and why its needed, the bigger picture was highlighted by Orangetom.

[edit on 22-7-2006 by WestPoint23]



posted on Jul, 22 2006 @ 11:09 AM
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Originally posted by ignorat_ape
its just a name


Yes of course its just a name in that sense but that is very important when you're talking about naming a future class of carriers. Names should represent significant items, people, places or events, things that we want to pay tribute to, remember, pass on etc... The name USS Guppy doesn't have the same significance as the name USS Nimitz. I’m sure the crew and ship will perform just the same but the name is still an important factor. And you can do something about it, if the system works the way it should you can influence the Secretary of the Navy to choose a particular name that a large portion of the public wants. Problem is the large majority of the public don’t even know how many carries we have, that we’re building a new class, or what names are being discussed. Apart from navy people and a few enthusiasts there's not much interest in the subject.

You can visit the links below and send your congressman/woman a letter about the subject.

CVN-78 New Flagship
USS America Petition



posted on Jul, 22 2006 @ 11:22 AM
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How about the pillar of autumn or truth and reconciliation?.These names are from the Game HALO and imp are the best ship names.



posted on Jul, 22 2006 @ 02:11 PM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999

I have seen little to beat the absolute ignorance of many politicians. While the public is not particularly bright it is the brashness of politicians which needs to be shed light on in this country.

This buisness of financing and the national debt is much more sinister and devastating than the public is allowed to know. As you stated..it also gets people elected.



It still doesn't change the fact politicians love defense spending. Again, if it brings jobs and revenue, then that equals elections. What politician doesn't love that?

While we're rightfully bashing the government, lets also be clear on one other thing, and it is that the military is as equally culpable and guilty of this sinister activity. The U.S. Navy, as an example, regularly tells only half the truth or sometimes lies outright to Congress and the public in order to justify useless, costly, and downright terrifyingly hazardous programs and systems, most notoriously the V-22 Osprey. You talk about things the public doesn't and will never know, that should be at the top of the list, and how they will always mention the supposed and expected rather than the actual results of the testing.

This is why its called the MILITARY-INDUSTRIAL-CONGRESSIONAL complex. The military, the businesses, and the government all work together on this.



I have had debates with people from Europe and the Uk. They think we should dump all this military spending and support more of give away programs like medical and more education....which have become jobs programs...not necessarily for the benifit of the public. Education especially. These countrys would be all for this while looking down their long noses at us...until they are in trouble and need bailing out as was the case in two world wars. Then they will look down thier noses at us for not being able to help them. It is a no win situation for us with most of these nations. I dont have any more respect for them than I do most of our own government deficit spending.

Thanks,
Orangetom


Its unfortunate, but as the world's hyperpower, its a price that must be paid. If we're not willing to shoulder that burden, we should just let China take over.



posted on Jul, 22 2006 @ 02:14 PM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999

You seriously need to think about this statement of yours..

You posted:

"Of coruse it won't be in the papers or public education. The average American doesn't care about carriers and warships. Can't say I blame them either. "

I agree..the average American..."how about those Lakers...those Redskins. Amereican Idol" etc etc etc.


Until........!!!! Until they are in trouble in places like Lebanon..or Serria Leone etc etc. And it has happened over and over.
Incredibly in times like this many of them have the asinine stupidity to want to be totally taken care of like they were back home and not in a emergency situation. This is obvious in some of the interviews of the people being evacuated from Lebanon. Asinine.
I saw this stuipidity around here after Hurricane Isabel. People expecting to be served but making no real preparations themselves beforehand. IN hurricane Katrina..people were insulted by the government passing out MRE meals. Astonishing ...like someone owed them to put up a resteraunt meal for them..to serve them up to thier standards. Really stupid.

This is what passes for greatness among many peoples ..including senators and congressmen who have been publically educated...ie...television educated.
They think mostly about fun and comforts until they are in trouble and then they look for someone else to blame..if they need bailing out.

In light of recent events in places like Serria Leone and Lebanon ..you need to think about what you are saying. Also this will not be the last time our military will go to such places to evacuate our peoples.

YOu are correct about the Average American....however ...I do blame them for thier educated stupidity. Many Americans have been breast fed so long they are dumb enought to think it is deserved and owed to them..even in foreign lands.

While on that subject...remember what our militarys did to render aid to those countrys stricken by that Tsunami a couple of years ago. And many of them still look down their long noses at us..as if we owe it to them or insulted them....including some Americans.

Thanks,
Orangetom


Nothing more to think about really. I always
when I hear some middle-to-upper-class American talking about how informed they are and howthey're such a tough bunch, yet when it comes down to it, they're as worthless as the people in Lebanon and Sierra Leone.

Nobody owes anybody anything. That must be earned.



posted on Jul, 22 2006 @ 10:38 PM
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Sweat,

I dont entirely agree with your position.

You posted:

"It still doesn't change the fact politicians love defense spending. Again, if it brings jobs and revenue, then that equals elections. What politician doesn't love that?"

To be accurate ...the politicians love to spend money on anything which will get them re elected or their political party re elected. Our government is following a very similar deficit spending program as was Ancient Rome.

They will spend money on medicare'medicaid, Education, Welfare...bridges...et al...to get re elected. Obviously when speaking of education they dont seem to care if they get results... just re elected. And I mean no matter what party is in power. It has become the battle of the partys with the public losing in the end.
This buisness with the illegal aliens will become a fight for votes and influence in this arena..governed by give away programs for votes.
THe government spends more on social programs and give aways than they do on the military.
Not only that but we now have many countrys on the dole too. Huge loans granted on the deficit to keep certain countrys in goodies and in favor against the benifit and welfare of the American public.

You seem very wont to put this on the military...when the whole government is doing it. This becomes quite obvious to see when one realizes that the military is not the voting majority in this country. Their political influence is limited in elections. Not so with the voting majority, Hence the military becomes a default setting politically ..a whipping boy for politicians looking to deflect attention and budgets to be redirected for votes.
I would like to see a news "expert " or political commentator clear this up in public or on their broadcast...you wont see it.
IF the military were the voting majority in this country they would not be under such attacks particulary by political partys....while these partys scream " victimization tactics" to get re elected. This means the military is actually a disposable and expendable commodity before certain political goals and elections.
They only count when politics is at stake...involving military action.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Jul, 27 2006 @ 05:52 PM
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well i think the next Enterprise should get a special CV in the tradition of the current outfitted with the best experimental stuff and maybe even a sub or the ones in popular machenics years ago!
SOme hot new cool revoltutionary that redefines the class how about like the german cv that had cannons on it but instead of cannon how about rail guns to go with the planes!

i can dream.



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