Pieman and to the rest,
More evidence to the fact that the Palestinian nation never existed I use the UN source from the Division for Palestinian Rights (DPR) department of the UN - A pro-palestinian division - this quote comes from the Arab response to the Zionist ambitions:

"We oppose the pretensions of the Zionists to create a Jewish Commonwealth in the southern part of Syria, known as Palestine, and oppose Zionist migration to any part of our country, for we do not acknowledge their title but consider them a grave peril to our people from the national, economical, and political points of view.

As you can see Arabs themselves considered themselves Syrians and Palestine was a district in Palestine and never a nation - They speak the same language, have the same religion and have the same characteristics of the same nation.

Since the war started, more arabs have died to arabs in Iraq than by Israeli's in Lebabon.

Statistical fact that are guarenteed not make the headlines.

BUT...


I don't believe the statistics. Israel is shelling villages on the border of Southern Lebanon that have not had any reporters visit yet. With Hezbollah supposedly preventing people from leaving those villages, when it is all said and done I think there will be hundreds, if not thousands dead Lebanese there.

It is the ace in the hole of Hezbollah, they know that the last time Israel attacked Lebanon the war stopped when Israel killed a large number of civilians in an air strike. If it gets rough for Hezbollah, they will pull out of those areas, let the media in, and the pictures of the dead will change the dynamics of this war.

Nobody likes large numbers of dead, even if they are sacrificed, the reality is autoposy can prove they were killed by Israeli shelling, meaning in the court of public opinion, Israel did the killing.

Unless the world is ready to accept that people die in war, something I don't think the world is ready to accept, the most evil and devious tactics will prevail in any war today. It is why the wars in Dufar and Somolia are ignored, the level of brutality is so high it makes it impossible for any country to win without killing large numbers of people, which is unacceptable in todays media headline driven world.

Originally posted by marg6043
The only thing that I see now is . . . that while countries around are doing their best to get their nationals from Lebanon. . . nobody actually cares what happen with the Lebanese citizens.

This people are to become like you say prisoners of Israel and Hezbollah conflict.

They have not way to go!!!!!!their homes are been destroyed their infrastructure decimated.

I am waiting as to when somebody is going to acknowledge how to bring help to the victims of this country.

They are victims of their own making! If the citizens and the government are not doing anything to prevent the Hezbollah terrorists from attacking Israel from inside Lebanon - then Israel has every right to deal with the situation themselves.

I do feel sorry for these people and it depresses me to see women and children dying and crying over love ones, but they have to take responsibility for whats happening in their own country instead of turning a blind eye and then whinging when something is done about it!

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
You really like burying your head in the sand don't you?? did you see the top of the page?

Division for Palestinian Rights (DPR)

Do you really believe that the UN is neutral? expecially up to during 1990 (when the report was written)?

As your people would say..Oh its a Conspiracy the Arabs are taking over the UN world and they have placed themselves in the highest places in government...Errrrrr Puhleez excuses excuses excuses. Everyone who tries to correct israel is either prejudiced or its fixed towards the arabs.

As for your assertion that Palestine never existed...whatever you want to think. Its your delusion so feel free to believe it. You being a person who would probably take great offense when or if someone was to attempt to deny the holocoaust that you would even attempt to deny the existence of an entire race is just as insulting in order to make yourself appear correct. Absolutely amazing.

So, some people think that this is a good example of anti-terrorist action? As I can see, the objective of this action is not to bring down hezbollah, and far from it. Why? It is clear that targets for current phase of campaign are bridges, power stations, airports, fuel dumps... targets that are vital for normal life of entire country, not terrorist organization. This type of attack is being undertaken when the objective of campaign is to bring targeted country down and/or conquer it.

If this was anti-terrorist operation, we'd hear only about about some small-scale air raids, surgical strikes commenced by Israeli airforce. The rest of informations about this operations would probably never reach mass media (SF and intelligence operations). It's targets would be hazbollah's leaders and members, and their supplies. Maybe some apache gunships would be sent to hunt for missile launchers and heavy equipment. Such actions would not meet practicaly any severe critics.

And if the objective of this action really is to bring hezbollah, then the tactics employed are quite poor. Not only it won't strike hezbollah down, it will make situation even more difficult for Israel in the future. More new terrorist will arise, even among people that condemned hezbollah before. Especially among younger generations.

And not to mention civilians killed for nothing, on both sides

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
[As for your assertion that Palestine never existed...whatever you want to think. Its your delusion so feel free to believe it.

Sorry PieMan but you're going to have to conceed on this one. Palestine has never existed as an independent nation in modern times. The area has successively been part of the Ottoman empire and the Britsh Mandate since before the first world war.

However, it's a somwhat futile argument as prior to WWI hardly any of the countries we now recognise in the region existed in any accepted form including Syria, Jordan and, of course, Israel.

What is undeniable is that Israeli forces, or their paramilitary predecessors ran muslim Palestinians out of their homes through force of arms and brutal terrorism in order to make space for their own state and the status of the Palestinian nation at the time it happened is somewhat irrelevant.

there was never a Palestinian state per say but there were concurrent plans for one in the area that is now the west bank and Israel that was aborted by the formation of Israel...that is in a large part what the war of partition was all about.

Timeless,

you happened to be right on what you sasy with the exception of:
The nation of Palestine never existed in ancient times too. There where Phiilistines who are not the same as todays Palestinians.

another misconception is:

What is undeniable is that Israeli forces, or their paramilitary predecessors ran muslim Palestinians out of their homes through force of arms and brutal terrorism in order to make space for their own state and the status of the Palestinian nation at the time it happened is somewhat irrelevant.

The above is a fallacy propagated by the Arab world as a justification for their aggressions:
Only a small portion of the Palestinians where forced off their lands - A vast majority cleared the lands because the Arab armies asked them too. The Arabs during the 1948 war sought to eliminate the jewish presence from Israel and to make their task easier asked the Arabs to leave. The publicity and exaggeration of the events in Dir Yassin also exhaspirated their fears and so they left. In a manner of speaking the Arab lies of Dir Yassin had an effect that played against the Arabs in that it caused a hysteria amongst Arabs.

Those Arabs that stayed in Israel became Israeli citizens. Those that fled became pawns in the hands of the Arabs propaganda machine.
I am not saying that there were no civilian losses in Israel at the time of the 1948 war. Massacres occured on both sides, but then, like now Israel was forced to respond to aggression rather than initiate it.

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
Timeless,

you happened to be right on what you sasy with the exception of:
The nation of Palestine never existed in ancient times too. There where Phiilistines who are not the same as todays Palestinians.

Well thank you for that. To be picky, I didn't actually say that Palestine did exist in ancient times, neither do I care to be frank - if a lot more people stopped looking to ancient history for their motivation it could be a bit more peaceful over there.

Only a small portion of the Palestinians where forced off their lands

I'm sure that is a great comfort to the one time citizens of Deir Yassin that their murder at the hands of The Irgun and Lehi was a relatively isolated incident. I have to say that the contrast between the outrage and bloody response to the kidnap of just three soldiers and the calm resignation with which you appear to treat the deaths of 120 people at Deir Yassin is interesting.

Those Arabs that stayed in Israel became Israeli citizens.

Well I'm sure they were all just thrilled to pieces.

Israel was forced to respond to aggression rather than initiate it.

I'm not going to pretend for one moment that the Israelis were soley at fault for the post WWII violence in Palestine but to imply as you do here that they were simply the good guys responding to the Arab's aggression is just absurd as any impartial history of the time will confirm.

It is never easy to look back in history and accept that your nation or its people, possibly your relatives, may have sometimes been the bad guys, heaven knows in Britain we have had to learn how to do this many times as a result of an often bullying and inglorious past but to pretend that any nation or people have nothing to be ashamed of would be naieve and foolish in the extreme and can only make it more difficult to come to terms with reality in the present.

Originally posted by Duby78
It's not my opinion that Israeli forces are killing civilians on purpose, but they don't care about civilians being killed either.

This part, you can prove or disprove with documentation, such as a military directive:

It's not my opinion that Israeli forces are killing civilians on purpose,

But to be able to say this, you must be inside the hearts and minds of the soldiers:

but they don't care about civilians being killed either.

bomber8

have you ever served as a soldier? I have, and I know how things are - therefore I don' put blame on the troops. When you're a soldier, you do as ordered.

But that's not the point of my posts - read my first post on this topic. If you agree - good. If you don't - good, it's your right to have your own opinion. I'm not here to argue or spread hatred.

Originally posted by Duby78
But that's not the point of my posts - read my first post on this topic. If you agree - good. If you don't - good, it's your right to have your own opinion. I'm not here to argue or spread hatred.

What in the world are you talking about? All I said was that there is no way you could know if the soldiers didn't care about killing civilians. And there isn't. What's this about spreading hatred???

What Exactly are we Saluting here?

The Massacre of 110 Children?

The Killings of 330 Civilians?

The Complete Destruction of Lebanon's Infrastructure?

Which Part - so that I know, and put the correct Hat on my Head.

Originally posted by Souljah
What Exactly are we Saluting here?

The Massacre of 110 Children?

The Killings of 330 Civilians?

The Complete Destruction of Lebanon's Infrastructure?

Which Part - so that I know, and put the correct Hat on my Head.

someone said in another message they would turn Lebanon into a parking lot, so I think a construction hat would is necessary in this case. This is phase I of construction.


Pie

Israel had what? 3 soldiers captured. In exchange they murder over 300 civilians. It is ignorance and arrogance governing this battle. They are bombing Lebanon because they can't control this Hezbolah. How brilliant. Maybe we should go and bomb Mexico because they can't control the gangs here in the U.S. It is just dumb on so many levels. I hope the U.S. isn't dumb enough to come bail out Israel if they start sustaining heavy casualties. I'm sure the U.S. will but it would be foolish.

Originally posted by Indy
Israel had what? 3 soldiers captured. In exchange they murder over 300 civilians. It is ignorance and arrogance governing this battle. They are bombing Lebanon because they can't control this Hezbolah.

3 soldiers captured, plus one civilian kidnapped and murdered, plus countless Katushya's lobbed over the border with impugnity, plus a number of other soldiers killed.

What should be the threshhold before they react? Where is the Appropriate Reaction chart?

Should Israel be expected to stand by and allow Hezbollah to terrorize her at will, with no repercussions?

As regards your Mexican border analogy, you can rest assured that if the coyotes, or MS-13, or anyone else decided to escalate the action to include firing rockets over the border, our reaction would escalate rapidly, and not necessarily linearly.