So uhhh, what was this thread about?



Cause it seems like it's lived its usefulness and has evovled into just a bitch fest. lol


save me dr astro!

JM,

You have continued to argue your position with admirable determination and given the circumstances I can understand why you would follow this path. However it is dangerously easy to lose sight of humanity in the heat of battle, it has happened before and doubtless it will happen again.

Many pages ago on this thread I asked a question which you failed to answer - perhaps you simply didn't see it or perhaps you were not confident of what your answer should be, so at the risk of being a little tedious I will ask it again...

Originally posted by timeless test

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
So all and all the numbers don't count - It is the objectives and the tactics that count.

So, out of curiosity, if the numbers of Arabs that had to die to achieve these self set objectives were to reach, say, 4 or 5 million would they still not count or would it be worth it to achieve a final solution (for want of a better phrase)?

I'm not asking for yet another rehash of why Hezbollah are wrong to hide in civilian areas or how hard Israel has tried to avoid civilian casualties I am asking when do the numbers start to count or does that depend on who's getting killed?

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi


In lighht of Hezbullahs strategy of targetting civilians, I would not get bent out of shape when Lebanese civilians are killed. You cannot go by one set of laws and expect to be exempt from having the same happen to you. As a reminder when Israel kills civilians it is inadvertent unlike Hezbullah and other Islamofacists.

Judah I don't think anyone is denying Israel's right to defend itself but when the current 'score' is 60+ Israelis dead against 900+ Lebanese what possible justification is there for destroying roads, airports, bridges, and fuel stores - very similar to the targets hit in Gaza IIRC.

It's not proportionate and it's certainly not justifiable unless you're starting from the presumption that one of yours is worth 10 of their's - wasn't that sort of logic fashionable in certain cultures in 1939-45?

Nice post Grover. However, there will be people who will still swear up and down that its only the terrorists antagonizing anyone and that Israel always plays by the rules.
Since they were protecting the palestinians, they were an impedence to Israel being able to have access to them at anytime and also they were in the way whenever they felt a need to cross the Blue Line into Lebanon. They had the push to have them classified as terrorists only because it would cut off outside funding and legitimize an attack on them and Lebanon at the same time. Something of course the US would approve of in the name of the WOT.



Pie

A salute to insanity...



Holes in heads begat holes in lands.



[edit on 6-8-2006 by Regenmacher]

here are my responses to this thread:

1. ok if Hizbollah killed a 1000 people over the last 25 years or so in Israel and americans, etc. Israel has killed 100's of thousands in lebanon alone. in the six years from 2000 until 2006, hezbollah fired 100 rockets, Israel has fired in a so-called "proportional retaliation against terrorism" 11500 more powerful, more lethal, more deadly missles into lebanon in six years, and killed scores and scores more INNOCENT PEOPLE in Lebanon than HEZBOLLAH.

2.ok first of all, if you want people to get out, you don't bomb there roads and bridges, how exactly do you think a car is gonna cross the litani river without a bridge, # how isa car going to get to the litani river when the roads are all bombed! what you want them to walk 40-50 miles all the way to beirut. plus even if they did reach Beirut, do you really think he can live with how expensive beirut is compared to the south of lebanon, where the hell is he gonna eat and drink in Beirut, he's gonna die even if he reached beirut from starvation. so please don't say israel "warned the lebanese people" because they didn't, they only dropped leaflets to give themselves an excuse, but you don't bomb the only bridge ona river and tell the people to go on the other side! how idiotic.

3. look Lebanon is like 1/10th or 1/15th, the size of Syria, and maybe 1/40-1/50th the size of Iran, and it's 1/2 the size of Israel, and it's sorounded by Syria, it isn't very rich, it doesn't have a large population, only 4.5million people or so, while syria has maybe 60million or so, Lebanons army barely has maybe half a dozen tanks, the Syrian army has maybe a about 10 tank divisions or so. Iran is even stronger, maybe 20 tank divisions and probably nukes. and Israel is stronger than both of them with there merkava tanks and aricraft and the like. The lebanese army has no aircraft, the lebanese army is only made up of only about 20k-30k ill-equipped, ill-trained soldiers, while the Israeli army is made up of maybe 60k troops plus reserves that are superbly equiiped, trained very well, and they have state of the art weapons! so please a country like lebanon has to be controlled by the countries around, because unless it mobilizes the whole countries and issues conscription, and conscripts a million or so troops, and follows collectiovization, it will never be able to stand up to syria or iran or israel, and even if it does this, it might not be able t stand up to anybody!

4. so waht if iran and syria are aiding Hezbollah, IDF is still way better equipped and is very tech. advanced!

5. i'll answer your question, first of all Hezbollah did not rape and murder lebanese citizens, that's all israeli and US propaganda, Israel is the only one the murdered Lebanese citizens. and plus as i said before, if Hezbollah fired lets say a max of 5000 rockets into israel in the last 25 years, Israel has fired 11500 more lethal, more destructive missles in only the last 6 years, and maybe 10 times that number in the last 18 years before that, during it's occupation of southern lebanon.

6. nobody cares what you'll do if you had a government like the lebanese one.

7. Israel brought up Hezbollah because they kept occupying lebanon. so a resistance had to be brought up. Israel was dumb and could've avoided a hezbollah if it would've talked to one of the militias that were in Lebanon before hezbollah, more specifically one militiaq, the one of a man called jomblatt, he was a sane man, i would like to say a saint of reason, he wanted to make peace with Israel, but no israel wanted to pound him and in the end he died, then came Hezbollah. so they could've avoided hezbollah easilly if they wanted peace, but they don't. plus the lebanese army is barely a police vehicle, and not a real army, while Hezbollah has about 250000 militia men

i'll finishs in my second post, this was my answer to another thread so bear with the grammar and all, but it fairly talks about the same subject.

Hezbollah is the representative of the shia in lebanon who live in Southern Lebanon, now do you really think Lebanon would want the south to secede, do you really think ISrael would want that. imagine if the Southern US would secede becasue they were catholics, while the north was Protestant, adn the protestants didn't like the catholics so they started prosecuting the southern protestant population, and the south seceded, would you like that, would the government like that. (this was an example).

ok now if you think any country has the right to make about a million people homeless, and kill about 600-700 people, and injure over 2000, and demolish a civilian residentialbuilding and bring it down while 60-70 people are in it, or launch missles against an Oil refinary near the sea, and dedstroy one third of another country's coastline and beaches, and put collective punishment on 4.5million people, and deny food or drink to around 3.5million, and the other million is barely drinking and eating only to keep themselves alive, or destroy the lives of thousands and thousands of families, i think you really need to get a conscience, and a right brain.

well i guess that's what happens when you belive and listen to everything that US or ISraeli or UK based media news reports say. for instance CNN brings out people who don't know anything about what they're talking about, people who don't know anything about the region, i bet those people don't even know where lebanon or ISrael are! that will always saiy this: "Israel is an angel, Hezbollah and every muslim or arab in teh world is a terrorist bastard". please stop listening to propaganda, and try to listen to common sense and true news reporting, i don't know where you'll find that, but just rry to stop being affecteeed by propaganda.

here's even more:

2. yes i'm from jordan, but i'm not affected from propaganda or so, i am well aware of what the arabs do and what Israel does. that's why i said niehter the arabs or hezbollah or Israel are angels.

3.your first answer to my point number 1. ok now for the last six years israel has been firing missles into Gaza and Southern Lebanon. now i'm not saying israel is a dumb warmongering nation, here's what i'm saying, now you see, i don't think Israel rejoices in the killing of Israeli women and children, and actually if you look at it, Hezbollah has not killed at all but maybe a handful of civilians before the eyar 2000 and even since then the number of civilians they have killed totally pales in comparison to waht the israelis have done, before 2000, they killed about 300 marines or so, 50 or so french, and 50 or so italians, and maybe a few more Israeli servicemen, all those were Military Targets, now yes they were peace keepers, but still they were military targets, not civilians! it's not the culture that teaches the people to hate israel, it's what israel does to the palestinians and the lebanese and the Gaza strip population that generates this Israel-hating culture, but i don't necessarily hate the israelis you know. you see it's not like on CNN, on Arabic television, they give you a warning, and they truly show gruesome and uncarring and without as much censorship as CNN or fox news or so. it's that they show a horror movie, but they show more than CNN or Fox news or so, so the people know what's truelly happening! CNN doesn't show the whole story, it shows mostly the israeli side, or actually i'd like to say CNN is sort of moderate, but Fox news is really biased toward israel!

4. now it's true 700k people did leave, but i would bet that most of those 700k were from beirut or the larger cities and not from southern lebanon, plus Israel bombed Bridges across the litani river and the main road to syria the first day of fighting, you see most southerners are poor people who can barely eat, so if you tell them to go to syria, where are they gonna eat or stay, they don't have enough money to stay in a motel or a hotel, they can't go to beirut because of the same thing, so they choose to stay in there homes, and that's what most of the people in southern lebanon have done, or they maybe went to tyre, and that's after a week or so of bombing! now the letani river bridges are bombed, main roads are bombed, highways are bombed, so how the heck do you expect these people to go north now. and no, Hezbollah didn't keep these people here by force, the south is mostly shiit, shiia muslims in lebanon support hezbollah, why, because hezbollah helps them, now look after the war, most or all fo southern lebanon will be rebuilt by Hezbollah. Hezbollah right now is giving food and drink to most southern lebanese people, that is why they stay, because up in the safe areas, they don't have anything, and hezbollah can't reach them because it's influence doesn't reach there!

5. ok now even if Iran and Syria call for war with israel, i don't think that matters to the situation and i'll show you why. now what were discussing is the root or lets say why Hezbollah was born in the first, and the reason it was born because of Israeli pounding of southeern lebanon, just look at bint jbail and qana now and 21 days back. now lets say there was 500 in each of these village, you probably just added about 150 fighters to Hezbollah from each village, you wiped out lets say a 150 which were women and children and elderly that stayed bunkered in, and then there are 200 more who are Women children elderly not dead and a few moderate men.

6. i don't hink it does really, because since 1990 or so when rabin was there, the whole thing could've been solved, and who do you think shot rabin, a fanatic israeli, i would say jew but it would've sounded racist and that i am not. nevertheless, you see i think the leaders and rpime ministers maybe want peace but you see, there are some obstacles, one of those are the extremist israeli groups or the rabis political parties, and yes there are religious political parties in Israel, now you see those parties are small. now the prime minister in order to create an administration, which is what happens when the President has no power and power is vested in the PM, the PM needs to have majority, so what he/does is come to one of the small parties which are mostly religious and provide incentives for them to join his party, when that happens he becomes PM, now he/she becomes sort of a puppet for those groups, now he can do what he wants, but if they hardly disagree, they can say "oh we won't support you anymore" and the administration falls and a new PM and administration are pt in place. now those religious parties don't want peace, and i suspect they would be the ones who killed Rabin, which was i think a great leader, a saint of reason, and very thoughtful man. now maybe hezbollah provoked them, but if i slapped you lightly, would you just come with all your friends and jump me and give me broken bones and stuff, that's what israel has done, Hezbollah fired maybe a 100 or so rockets in those 6 years, Israel fired in "retaliation" 11500 missles that are more lethal and deadly, that's a 11500% increase in number, and if you add the power of each projectile and missle the israelis fired, you should see about 20k% more than the hezbollahs firepower. plus if it wanted it peace, it could've just given the hezbollah the 10k lebanese and the Gaza and Palestine prisoners back, and gave shebba farms to lebanon and all those really small terretories back to there owners, and ended everything along with giving the palestinians there own state back 6 years ago! so come on man, puh lease!... now i'm with you that Hezbollah should disarm, but you can't do that when your inflicting more and more atrocities every day.

8. finnaly last point. well it's true lebanon has been moving to a democratic society, and as you know Hezbollah is elected into the government in a completely democratic way. you see, you hear Nassrallah saying yeah we want israel off the planet, but that is propaganda, what they trully want is those prisoners, the lands of the west bank, and all the lands still occupied by Israel, like shebba farms and the west bank and gaza. you see unlike Osama bin laden or hamas, Hezbollah is trully spirituall, they trully fight from the heart, not for money and the like, and unlike most leaders who would send there sons to europe and have secret swiss bank accounts, Nassrallah lost both his sons in combat, and trully spends that 100mil he gets every year from iran to better the life in souther lebanon and south beirut. anyhow i don't really think a peace treaty can be achieved unless a true strong leader in Israel rises, like Rabin for instance.

9. i have specified what i see from western media, and i'm not saying all western media just Israeli, British, and US based news and media.

10. and i have a request for you, put yourself in the shoes of a lebanese, not a hezbollah fighter, just a south lebanese citizen, or rather put yourself in the shoes of PM sinora. and you'll see that no side is innocent. a side is only innocent in this conflict if you listen to propaganda and unjust and biased info.

and now i'm done!!!!!!!

Originally posted by timeless test
JM,

You have continued to argue your position with admirable determination and given the circumstances I can understand why you would follow this path. However it is dangerously easy to lose sight of humanity in the heat of battle, it has happened before and doubtless it will happen again.

Many pages ago on this thread I asked a question which you failed to answer - perhaps you simply didn't see it or perhaps you were not confident of what your answer should be, so at the risk of being a little tedious I will ask it again...

Originally posted by timeless test

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
So all and all the numbers don't count - It is the objectives and the tactics that count.

So, out of curiosity, if the numbers of Arabs that had to die to achieve these self set objectives were to reach, say, 4 or 5 million would they still not count or would it be worth it to achieve a final solution (for want of a better phrase)?

I'm not asking for yet another rehash of why Hezbollah are wrong to hide in civilian areas or how hard Israel has tried to avoid civilian casualties I am asking when do the numbers start to count or does that depend on who's getting killed?

This is truely a tough question to answer. In 1996 during the 'Grapes of Wrath' operation Hezbullah also fired in Civilian locations and even by UN positions. Israel responded with artillery fire, one of which struck a UN compound housing refugees. 100 refugees were killed. This, in essence, stopped the violence through negotiations which were not to Israel's interest.

Again this isn't a numbers game. The answer is not something that can be given in an equation. Israel's stand point is to reduce Hezbullah to the point where their political and military power will be significantly reduced. Lets hope the civilian casulaties are kept to a minimum on both sides.

My mistake it is Foreign Policy in Focus, not Foreign Affairs in Focus. Sorry.

INc2006,

now for the last six years israel has been firing missles into Gaza and Southern Lebanon. now i'm not saying israel is a dumb warmongering nation, here's what i'm saying, now you see, i don't think Israel rejoices in the killing of Israeli women and children, and actually if you look at it, Hezbollah has not killed at all but maybe a handful of civilians before the eyar 2000 and even since then the number of civilians they have killed totally pales in comparison to waht the israelis have done, before 2000, they killed about 300 marines or so, 50 or so french, and 50 or so italians, and maybe a few more Israeli servicemen, all those were Military Targets, now yes they were peace keepers, but still they were military targets, not civilians! it's not the culture that teaches the people to hate israel, it's what israel does to the palestinians and the lebanese and the Gaza strip population that generates this Israel-hating culture, but i don't necessarily hate the israelis you know. you see it's not like on CNN, on Arabic television, they give you a warning, and they truly show gruesome and uncarring and without as much censorship as CNN or fox news or so. it's that they show a horror movie, but they show more than CNN or Fox news or so, so the people know what's truelly happening! CNN doesn't show the whole story, it shows mostly the israeli side, or actually i'd like to say CNN is sort of moderate, but Fox news is really biased toward israel!

GRANTED Fox is biased toward Israel as Al-Jezira is biased towards the Arab countries.

Hezbullah has engaged in the the 1992 bombing of the Israeli embassy, the bombing of the Jewish center in Benos Aries in 1994, the car bombing of the Israeli embassy in London and countless attacks on Israeli residential areas using mortars and Rockets. Since 2000 Hezbullah was responsible for periodic attacks on Israeli residential areas, Kidnapping of Elhanan Tennenbaum a civilian and killing 6 civilians in northern Israel by a Hezbullah trained hit-team on March 12, 2002. In addition to this Hezbullah has assisted Hamas and Islamic Jihad in planning, preparing terrorist attacks in Israel. Israel has captured in Palestinian territories Hezbullah operatives.

Now you've mentioned at the start of your statementm "for the last six years israel has been firing missles into Gaza and Southern Lebanon" In Lebanon all missiles fired where by Hezbullah into Israel and Israel responded following Aarb aggression. Is this what They teach you on Al-Jezira?
On the Palestinian front. . . Have you forgotten the Qassam missile that is fired daily into Israel for 2 years now (if not longer)???

The hatred of Israel is not because what Israel does to Arabs. It is because of the lies taught to you through Al-jezira and state-run TV that flames the hate. When Palestinian fire missiles into Israel, Israel has the right to defend itself. The aggression was ALWAYS intiated by the Arabs.
I chllange you to prove me wrong!

[edit on 6/8/06 by JudahMaccabbi]

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
Is this what They teach you on Al-Jezira?
On the Palestinian front. . . Have you forgotten the Qassam missile that is fired daily into Israel for 2 years now (if not longer)???

The hatred of Israel is not because what Israel does to Arabs. It is because of the lies taught to you through Al-jezira and state-run TV that flames the hate. When Palestinian fire missiles into Israel, Israel has the right to defend itself. The aggression was ALWAYS intiated by the Arabs.
I chllange you to prove me wrong!

This sounds so familiar. Honestly.

"The American press is all about lies! All they tell is lies, lies and more lies!"

"I have detailed information about the situation...which completely proves that what they allege are illusions . . . They lie every day."

"Lying is forbidden in Iraq. President Saddam Hussein will tolerate nothing but truthfulness as he is a man of great honor and integrity. Everyone is encouraged to speak freely of the truths evidenced in their eyes and hearts."

"We are in control. They are in a state of hysteria. Losers, they think that by killing civilians and trying to distort the feelings of the people they will win. I think they will not win, those bastards."



Israeli version:
"We have destroyed the Majority of Hizbollahs missiles today"

"We have killed hundreds of Hizbollah terrorists" (Actually it was 23 children)

"We have destroyed the majority of their launch vehicles" (Fruit truck and 2 water drilling trucks)


While I won't salute israel anytime soon, I will give you my vote for the new Baghdad Bob replacement of 2006 Judah

Pieman,

I know you are running for the ATS clown award so I'll be gentle with you:

Israeli version:
"We have destroyed the Majority of Hizbollahs missiles today"

That is exactly why long range missiles that can reach Netanya + have not been launched. Nassrallah stated last week that he will hit that city. He also said that if Israel hit Beirut Tel Aviv would be bombed. Israel since hit Beirut (southern Shiite district) over and over again - Nasrallah responded 'er well I meant central beirut.

"We have killed hundreds of Hizbollah terrorists" (Actually it was 23 children)

Yeah, according to Hezbullah - Actually Israeli radio is broadcasting in Arabic the names of the identified Hezbullah militants killed they are 300+ in number.

"We have destroyed the majority of their launch vehicles" (Fruit truck and 2 water drilling trucks)

see rebut #1 above.

Pieman you have the right idea but the figures are reversed. What the Iraqi information minister did is typical Arab propaganda. In 1967 Nasser went on air and said that Egypt is destroying Israel and their Air force is bombing Tel-Aviv. Egypt had no air force - it was decimated.

You can listen to all the lies you want. If you believe them you will later feel like a fool.

While I won't salute israel anytime soon, I will give you my vote for the new Baghdad Bob replacement of 2006 Judah

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
Pieman,

I know you are running for the ATS clown award so I'll be gentle with you:

And you've just been elected as ATS's official Zionist propaganda bunny. Congratulations

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
"We have killed hundreds of Hizbollah terrorists" (Actually it was 23 children)

Yeah, according to Hezbullah - Actually Israeli radio is broadcasting in Arabic the names of the identified Hezbullah militants killed they are 300+ in number.

What proof do you have (except of the Israeli propaganda)? And how exactly has Israel been able to identify those killed soldiers? After all, Hezbollah is not a professional army and their militants wont probably wear dog tags. Besides does the Israeli propaganda machine says whether those militants had been killed by ground fire only or just in general?

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
In 1967 Nasser went on air and said that Egypt is destroying Israel and their Air force is bombing Tel-Aviv. Egypt had no air force - it was decimated.

Really? Sounds familiar. Israel: ''We'll clear out Hezbollah within one or two days'' ''We will clear out Hezbollah within a week'' ''We will clear out Hezbollah within two weeks'' ''We will clear out Hezbollah within fours weeks'' ''We will fight Hezbollah till the intervention force is stationed''. Sounds like it's not as easy as the Israeli propaganda machine tells you ey?

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
You can listen to all the lies you want. If you believe them you will later feel like a fool.

Same applies for you. You are so patheticly believing Hezbollah and Arabs in general are using propaganda only. Both sides use propaganda, no war has been fought without propaganda on both sides.


[edit on 6-8-2006 by Mdv2]

Mdv2,

Of course Israel uses propaganda but in a different way from Hizbullah.

Answer me this:
DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE WHAT HEZBULLAH IS SAYING ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF THEIR DEAD FIGHTERS?

remember the Israeli Navy Corvette that was sunk? Well its back in action today.
remember the downed F-16? Remember that other sunk Israeli ship phantom ship?
Nasrallah at one point said that they destroyed Israel's Navy!?!!?

I suggest we wait and see.

strangerous,

It's not proportionate and it's certainly not justifiable unless you're starting from the presumption that one of yours is worth 10 of their's - wasn't that sort of logic fashionable in certain cultures in 1939-45?

Yes it was the British that killed more German citizens than the Germans killed British and US Citizens together. I know you weren't referring to that but just to set the record straight your statistics are of no relevance. When you fire on Israeli towns from Lebanese towns do not expect that you or your neighbors are immune from attack. Problem being that there are many fools in this world who do not understand this until they are the victims of these attacks.

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
strangerous,

It's not proportionate and it's certainly not justifiable unless you're starting from the presumption that one of yours is worth 10 of their's - wasn't that sort of logic fashionable in certain cultures in 1939-45?

Yes it was the British that killed more German citizens than the Germans killed British and US Citizens together. I know you weren't referring to that but just to set the record straight your statistics are of no relevance. When you fire on Israeli towns from Lebanese towns do not expect that you or your neighbors are immune from attack. Problem being that there are many fools in this world who do not understand this until they are the victims of these attacks.

Hmm. Sympathising with the Nazi's there Judah?