Salute Israel for their tactics

Originally posted by Pokey Oats
There's more bravery in the cuticle of just one man that charged Omaha Beach on D-day than there is in all of Hezbollah put together.

Wow, thanks for that one piece of propaganda. Aligning Israel with US Marines of WW2. Sorry, not buying that.

That said, you want to talk about civilian casualties, read up on WWII.

Pokey Oats

That was then, this is now. Remember when it took FOREVER to fly anywhere? Nuclear weapons were a dream and a nightmare and long distance calling was REALLY expensive. What's your point?

Originally posted by Pokey Oats

There's more bravery in the cuticle of just one man that charged Omaha Beach on D-day than there is in all of Hezbollah put together.

Why do people keep talking about bravery?

I'm not justifying Hezbollah here. It is not brave to fire rockets into city centres from 15-20 miles away.

But equally I don't see it as being brave to fly your state of the art F-16 fighter in an area of total air superiority and lob bombs at populated areas from 10,000ft. Ok - kudos to the pilots for strapping into a fighter jet but brave....?

Surely brave would be fighting their way in past enemy forces including surface to air missiles and an effective fighter screen, against the odds?

I don't get it.

The same way that I don't get people talking about uniforms.

Special forces teams on stakeouts and deployed in the field do NOT wear uniforms. Are they cowards as well?

Or do people work under the impression that, say, your average SAS unit in the middle of - for want of an example - Kabul - dress in all black with balacalva's on carrying a full weapons load all the time?

And what about the resistance fighters in the "often referred to as an example" World War 2. They wore no uniforms, hid amongst the civilian population and carried out attacks from populated areas. According to some folks here that makes cowards out of the lot of them.

Fact is, uniform or not, the action of killing of unarmed civilians on both sides is cowardly.

Its the perpetuation of violence that will, ultimately lead to more violence, because - lets face it - if you've seen your mother/father/sister/brother or other close relative reduced to small body parts because some one has either lobbed a rocket at them or dropped a laser guided precision bomb on them, you really aren't going to sit there and think "yeah, that action was justified in the greater war against terrorism" or "yeah, that action was justified in ending our jihad" are you? You are more likley to want to kill the bastards responsible.

That said, you want to talk about civilian casualties, read up on WWII.

I'd love to know the rationale behind this statement. Please expand more on what you meant?

[edit on 1-8-2006 by neformore]

Ya know I really find the whole premise of this thread offensive...but ya know I am an argumentive SOB . I do not justify Hezbollah, but Israel is wrong to bomb civilians and go oops afterwards too.

Ya know Bill Mahar made the exact same point right after 9/11 and got his show "Politically Incorrect" canceled for it.

To wit: (a paraphrase of it here) You want to talk about bravery, whether you agree with them or not, it takes balls to hijack a plane and fly it into a building....firing missiles at a target from a bunker 2,000 miles away doesn't take anything."

Originally posted by intrepid
Wow, thanks for that one piece of propaganda. Aligning Israel with US Marines of WW2. Sorry, not buying that.

Propaganda? It's simply how I feel about the issue. I am allowed to have an opinion about the topic right?

But that said, US involvement in Europe was not a defensive action on the part of the US, rather, they were fighting to liberate an Ally. At least Israel is acting based upon the fact that it is being _directly_ attacked.

As for you not buying it, I can only wonder why you think I was trying to sell you anything at all. That's a little egocentric isn't it?

That said, you want to talk about civilian casualties, read up on WWII.

That was then, this is now. Remember when it took FOREVER to fly anywhere? Nuclear weapons were a dream and a nightmare and long distance calling was REALLY expensive. What's your point?

What's my point? Wll my dear Intrepid, you virutally made it for me in your reply. 60 years ago the act of War meant hundreds of thousands, if not millions of civilian casualties because of attitudes and technology.

The ALLIED incendary bombing of Dresden resulted in over 70,000 civilian deaths and yet thanks to technology and newer more compassionate "modern" attitudes only one hundreth the number of civilian casualties has occurred over the entire Israel/Hezbollah/Lebanon campaign than in one night of Dresden bombing.

Sounds like progress to me.

Pokey Oats

i just realized how horribly biased that website you gave as a source is

what if we look at a pro-hezbollah site for evidence

come on

Judah, glad to see you're still alive & well. Still soldiering on on the propaganda front, eh?

I know you guys all have to do your bit for the cause but this is a disgraceful post.

I'm sure you're not surprised at the reaction you're getting, it was / is inevitable.


The attack on the Army outpost and the kidnapping of 2 IDF troopers is just the excuse, you know it and we know it too.

As someone 'in the know'; go on tell us when is this expansion eventually going to stop, the Iraqi border?, the Pakistan border?

As for saluting the destruction of lives and civilian infrastructure I really can't bring myslf to do it. I only salute those I respect.

As a compromise I offer the brave souls of the IDF 'two-fifths of wave' - in the tradition of Agincourt

Originally posted by Pokey Oats

The ALLIED incendary bombing of Dresden resulted in over 70,000 civilian deaths and yet thanks to technology and newer more compassionate "modern" attitudes only one hundreth the number of civilian casualties has occurred over the entire Israel/Hezbollah/Lebanon campaign than in one night of Dresden bombing.

Sounds like progress to me.

Pokey Oats

Its not progress for the people who are dead.

Its not progress for the families of those who are dead.

As I said in my earlier post - if it perpetuates the cycle of violence then its not progress at all.

originally posted by neformoreWhy do people keep talking about bravery?

I'm not justifying Hezbollah here. It is not brave to fire rockets into city centres from 15-20 miles away.

But equally I don't see it as being brave to fly your state of the art F-16 fighter in an area of total air superiority and lob bombs at populated areas from 10,000ft. Ok - kudos to the pilots for strapping into a fighter jet but brave....?

Surely brave would be fighting their way in past enemy forces including surface to air missiles and an effective fighter screen, against the odds?

I don't get it.

The same way that I don't get people talking about uniforms.

Special forces teams on stakeouts and deployed in the field do NOT wear uniforms. Are they cowards as well?

Or do people work under the impression that, say, your average SAS unit in the middle of - for want of an example - Kabul - dress in all black with balacalva's on carrying a full weapons load all the time?

And what about the resistance fighters in the "often referred to as an example" World War 2. They wore no uniforms, hid amongst the civilian population and carried out attacks from populated areas. According to some folks here that makes cowards out of the lot of them.

Fact is, uniform or not, the action of killing of unarmed civilians on both sides is cowardly.

Its the perpetuation of violence that will, ultimately lead to more violence, because - lets face it - if you've seen your mother/father/sister/brother or other close relative reduced to small body parts because some one has either lobbed a rocket at them or dropped a laser guided precision bomb on them, you really aren't going to sit there and think "yeah, that action was justified in the greater war against terrorism" or "yeah, that action was justified in ending our jihad" are you? You are more likley to want to kill the bastards responsible.

you have voted neformore for the wats

i dont give many of these out, but i couldnt of said it better.

Originally posted by mojo4sale

you have voted neformore for the wats

i dont give many of these out, but i couldnt of said it better.

Why thank you

Originally posted by Strangerous
Judah, glad to see you're still alive & well. Still soldiering on on the propaganda front, eh?
.
.
.
As someone 'in the know'; go on tell us when is this expansion eventually going to stop, the Iraqi border?, the Pakistan border?

Do you see the irony in your statement? You claim that I am on the propaganda from yet you come up with this illusionary statement regarding expansionism.
As far as I recall Jewish settlements in Gaza and the northern West Bank were evacuated. How do these facts aline with that fraudulent and Arab propaganda campaign you are waging?

BTW, I'm feeling fine. Thanks for the friendly concern. How are things with you?

To get my point across I will make it personal. Imagine if Mexico (for example) was launching missles across into the united states for years. Also imagine that you have a son that was a soldier and was kidnapped by mexican soldiers who came from across the border. Wouldn't you want the U.S. to do anything to get him back. And what if every country in the world didn't care your son was kidnapped they just want a cease fire for peace and then they will just do it again to another person.


Would you still support the other country

spinstopshere I'm not sure if your post was aimed at me but I'll give you a comparable example:

For years British soldiers were dying at the hands of the IRA. PIRA frequently operated from the other side of the border sniping and setting off command-wire booby traps from within the ROI (a separate country in case you're not familiar with the geography). The ROI was PIRA's storehouse, training area and the base of much of their support.

The UK didn't invade the ROI and the RAF didn't level Dublin. I'm not saying there weren't covert cross-border ops but we did respons in an appropriate and proportionate manner.

No-one's denying Israel's right to prevent attacks but the manner and the means used are the problem.

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Judah I'm fine, thanks for asking.

Not Arab propoganda on my part it's just my attempt to counter the spin from your side. As you know Israel still retains far more land than was enclosed by its agreed 1967 borders - even the much-vaunted 'security barrier' is being used to nibble away at other people's land and expand the area of Israel.

Most other countries understand the principle of borders and staying within them. For some reason Israel seems not to get this basic tenent of international law and seems to think it is a special case (similarly Israel's continued defiance of UN resolutions).

If you can explain why Israel should be treated as a special case and be above all laws except their own I'd be interested to hear the reasons.

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Well, I just read the first post. Since you are saluting the tactics of Israel, I thought I might as well post some quotations from the sacred Talmud, so you know what you are standing for:

Sacred Talmud quotations:
"Just the Jews are humans, the non-Jews are no humans, but cattle" (Kerithuth 6b, page 78, Jebhammoth 61);
"The non-Jews have been created to serve the Jews as Slaves" (Midrasch Talpioth 225);
"Sexual intercourse with non-Jews is like sexual intercourse with animals" (Kethuboth 3b);
"The non-Jews have to be avoided, even more than sick pigs" (Orach Chaiim, 57, 6a);
"The birth rate of non-Jews has to be suppressed massively" (Zohar II, 4b);
"As you replace lost cows and donkeys, so you shall replace non-Jews" (Lore Dea 377,1). And so it goes on and on.

Originally posted by Jgruh4e
Well, I just read the first post. Since you are saluting the tactics of Israel, I thought I might as well post some quotations from the sacred Talmud, so you know what you are standing for:

Sacred Talmud quotations:
"Just the Jews are humans, the non-Jews are no humans, but cattle" (Kerithuth 6b, page 78, Jebhammoth 61);
"The non-Jews have been created to serve the Jews as Slaves" (Midrasch Talpioth 225);
"Sexual intercourse with non-Jews is like sexual intercourse with animals" (Kethuboth 3b);
"The non-Jews have to be avoided, even more than sick pigs" (Orach Chaiim, 57, 6a);
"The birth rate of non-Jews has to be suppressed massively" (Zohar II, 4b);
"As you replace lost cows and donkeys, so you shall replace non-Jews" (Lore Dea 377,1). And so it goes on and on.

I already responded to the blatant ignorance regarding these Talmudic 'quotes'.
Allow me to educate you by providing the following link
If you wish to pull yourself out of that ignorant hole which you seem to live in you can read that whole web page.

Salute Israel's tactics?? Why?? they are bombing the entire country of Lebanon fer crying out loud. I thought they just wanted a 1 mile buffer zone in the south... what happened to that lie?

Strangerous,

As you know Israel still retains far more land than was enclosed by its agreed 1967 borders - even the much-vaunted 'security barrier' is being used to nibble away at other people's land and expand the area of Israel.

Notaccurate, Israel sat in Lebanon for 18 years and never erected settlements there. In the West Bank and Gaza settlements were erected where Jews lived throughout History such as Jerusalem, Kfar Darom, Hebron, by Nabalus, by TulKarem, and other places of Jewish historic value. You see the facts taught by the Arab world is a 'spin' as you call it. You can read up on everythingI posted above on neutral sites such as wikipedia.
True that these lands are disputed but that is exactly what they are DISPUTED! Not Palestinian.

If you also look at the history you will see that Israel was always under an incessant campaign of violence by Arabs. What you see today in Lebanon is just history repeating itself. Israel acts in restraint for dozens of terror attacks and when it becomes unbearable. Israel lashes out.
The Palestinians do not truely want peace. The issues they place on the negotiation table means the annhilation of the Jewish state and they are not willing to meet Israel somewhere in the middle. This has become apparent to 80% of the Israelis.

Most other countries understand the principle of borders and staying within them. For some reason Israel seems not to get this basic tenent of international law and seems to think it is a special case (similarly Israel's continued defiance of UN resolutions).

If you can explain why Israel should be treated as a special case and be above all laws except their own I'd be interested to hear the reasons.

You seem to perceive your view of the middle east from biased sources. Did you ever actually try to look into the history of the confict? If you had you would see the same song and dance. Arabs infiltrate Israeli territory or attack residential areas across the border and Israel retaliates by targeting those areas of attack.
Prior to 1967 Syria attacked, from the Golan heights, Israeli villages without rest until the war came about and they lost that land. From the West bank (under Jordanian rule) and Gaza (Egypt) Palestinians engaged in cross border attacks.

Now lets look again at your statement:

Most other countries understand the principle of borders and staying within them. For some reason Israel seems not to get this basic tenent of international law and seems to think it is a special case

In light of this historic fact I think it is obvious that the question should be directed at the Palestinians, the Syrians, Egyptians and now the Lebanese and Iran.
You seem to paint a picture that the Israeli leadership woke up one sunny,quiet morning and said: Ah what a nice day. Lets attack Lebanon.

It is Israel who is attacked and therefore MUST respond.

Get your history straight brother.

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
I already responded to the blatant ignorance regarding these Talmudic 'quotes'.
Allow me to educate you by providing the following link
If you wish to pull yourself out of that ignorant hole which you seem to live in you can read that whole web page.

Ok, Judah, I will read the whole thing, i promise. Religions and philosophy have always been of interest to me, so do not doubt, I will read it. For now I think my quotes are pretty accurate.

Regardless, I can not salute any tactics which involves murdering innocent people and destroying civil infrastracture. Actually, to be honest, I think Israeli authorities should be tried and given life sentences for war crimes.

Mod Edit: Compound Quote.

[edit on 3/8/2006 by Mirthful Me]

Originally posted by Strangerous
For years British soldiers were dying at the hands of the IRA. PIRA frequently operated from the other side of the border sniping and setting off command-wire booby traps from within the ROI (a separate country in case you're not familiar with the geography). The ROI was PIRA's storehouse, training area and the base of much of their support.

The UK didn't invade the ROI and the RAF didn't level Dublin. I'm not saying there weren't covert cross-border ops but we did respons in an appropriate and proportionate manner.

No-one's denying Israel's right to prevent attacks but the manner and the means used are the problem.

Its such a valid parallel Strangerous that I started an entire topic on it here

Terrorists - Drawing Parallels

It has - in the main - been ignored. I suspect thats because none of the rabid death merchants we see posting on a daily basis has an efective counter argument.

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
Notaccurate, Israel sat in Lebanon for 18 years and never erected settlements there. In the West Bank and Gaza settlements were erected where Jews lived throughout History such as Jerusalem, Kfar Darom, Hebron, by Nabalus, by TulKarem, and other places of Jewish historic value. You see the facts taught by the Arab world is a 'spin' as you call it. You can read up on everythingI posted above on neutral sites such as wikipedia.
True that these lands are disputed but that is exactly what they are DISPUTED! Not Palestinian.

If you also look at the history you will see that Israel was always under an incessant campaign of violence by Arabs. What you see today in Lebanon is just history repeating itself. Israel acts in restraint for dozens of terror attacks and when it becomes unbearable. Israel lashes out.
The Palestinians do not truely want peace. The issues they place on the negotiation table means the annhilation of the Jewish state and they are not willing to meet Israel somewhere in the middle. This has become apparent to 80% of the Israelis.

Based on your view of the world and from your posts on this site it seems blatantly obvious to me that you live under the misapprehension that Israel never has and never will do no wrong, and that all faults lie with the evil 'arab' empire's.
To be so biased as to think that one country can be so blameless in multiple conflicts shows a disregard for logic that is astounding.
I live in a country largely free of civil and external strife, yet i can look back through our short history and find many instances of obvious violence, racism and yes, even a concerted effort of genocide dressed as assimilation against internal and external races.
But according to you Israel and the jews are completely blameless for all that has happened over the past 2000yrs, and no, i do not condone the instances of muslim/arab aggresion, just the fair declaration of blame to all parties.

mojo4sale,

I have any issues with the Israeli leadership.
1- I am against administrative detentions.
2- I am against Labeling militants who target the military as terrorists.
3- I was against the unilateral disengagement in Gaza.
4- I think Israel should do more to make Israeli-Arabs feel more Israeli.
5- I think Israel should do more to make the ultra-Religious Jews feel more Israelis.

Israel has made a mistake in going into the OSLO accords with the PLO, they should have continued with the madrid conference who dealt with Palestinian representatives who were not PLO.

OSLO on both sides of the conflict became a money making scheme. Many Israelis and Palesitnians are making plenty of money off the Israeli and the Palestinians. This in itself in unacceptable.

Israel has made a mistake in that it did not withdraw from Lebanon with better arrangements to defend its northern border.

This is off the top of my head.

So you see, I do think Israel made mistakes and are doing wrong with its disengagement plans. All I am saying is in comparison of the two populations the Arabs are so backwards and ethically bankrupt that nothing is expected of them. So it is OK for them to launch rockets on residential areas from residential areas, to use hospitals as command posts, to shoot from schools and mosques, etc. No one is complaining in Europe about this, only that Israel did this or that - by mistake.

Again I say - When an Arab child is killed it is viewed as a tragedy in Israel. When a Jewish child is killed it is celebrated in Lebanon.