Of Creba, Arms, and Fear

Several residents of a North York housing complex watched as a teenage boy was stripped down to his underwear and slowly beaten to death Friday night, but they say they didn't intervene because it didn't look that serious and violence is so common in the area...

One man, who was walking by, saw the fight and pulled out his cellphone to call 911, but several of the assailants threatened him so he put his phone away and went home.

from The Toronto Star, July 18th/06

And people wonder why I'm a paranoid nutball. This is the city we're living in, people. Well, I'm living in. Toronto the good. I hear Vancouver, Calgary, Winnepeg, and Montreal aren't far behind, as far as crime is concerned. I feel unsafe, and with a dramatic spike in home invasions, should I feel any other way?

Maybe it's just me. Maybe the other Toronto members feel safe walking the streets at night, but I don't. I didn't even when I worked security, and carried (in contravenence of the law) a telescoping baton. Last summer, I was real lucky. I got fired from a security job that I felt unsafe at two whole weeks before a spate of shooting occurred in the area, including a killing within eyesight of my patrol route, during my shift.

I mean, someone murders someone else, are they gonna think twice about puttin' a bullet to the security guard that just watched you do it?

Alright, so you feel safe on the streets, because most of the shootings happen in Regent Park, or in the clubs. What about the stabbings? What about assaults of a felonious nature? I think it's time to wake up, Toronto. We aren't safe. When it comes down to it, the only thing keeping the criminals at home is their own laziness. They could run this town if they wanted it bad enough.

Look at the Creba case. One of her shooters is out on bail again...after two previous bailings and parole for domestic assault. So, no matter how often the police jail them, the bad guys are going to get out again. As much as I look up to the police, because of the court systems we're basically on our own.

I mean, knowing that and the fact that 99.9% of Torontonians can't defend themselves, what are you gonna do if you see nonsense like the case I posted at the top of the page? Call the police, get stabbed? Or maybe call from home, get stabbed there? There's a reason why so few people co-operate with police- with nothing holding these guys in jail, are you really going to trade your life or the safety of your family for a stranger?

Now, for me, I would feel safer if we had some decent laws up here. Maybe, keep the criminal element in jail, where they belong. Failing that, I'll take concealed carry laws. Or at least the legal right to defend myself.

What are your thoughts on the issue?

DE

That's just terrible.

I wish we'd start cracking down on violent crime. I had a gun pointed at my head when I was 20. The gas station where I worked was robbed by a 16 year-old kid. He pulled a knife on me first, but my baseball bat trumped his knife. I lost my attitude real fast when he pulled out a gun.

Then I realized it was a bb gun and asked if his unmentionables were as tiny as his bullets. What an idiot. :shk: He's lucky the cops didn't show up right then or he'd be dead.

[/rant]

What I'm saying is I'm getting sick of violent crime against innocent citizens. I'm much more forgiving when criminals keep to stealing from or offing their own.

As much as it pains me to say this as a taxpayer, we need a much heavier uniformed police presence on the street. Some of these areas require constant surveillance. I want vehicle and foot patrols, maybe even some of those cool horse patrols and heavy visibility. Most importantly, I want the pay phones in the high-crime areas reinstalled and the genius that came up with the idea of removing them to harm the drug dealers fired. The drug dealers have cell phones, but most of the low income residents don't even have land lines and now they can't call 911 anymore.

Geez, sorry about that. I thought my rant was over.

Police response times in the GTA range from five minutes to twenty for nonessential calls. And five minutes is plenty to bleed out in. Me? I'd settle for a weapon. because if some guy with a machete breaks into my house, I don't have kids to run and get me into a five-hour standoff with the police.

Bad guy will just kill my ass.

DE

You know what sucks? When you make me think.

I'm really, really leery of allowing people to walk around carrying prohibited weapons. I'm sure you are trained and responsible, but there's a lot of people that are not.

I would be interested in someone (you ) applying for a permit to carry a concealed and prohibited weapon. From what I know of our gun laws you would need to prove that your life is in danger and the police are unable to protect you. It would be a neat protest and it sounds like you could make a good argument.

I do think you should be able to keep a loaded weapon in your home. It's not going to do anyone any good if the bullets are locked in a seperate box.

I just wanted to comment on something else about the story you used as an example, the kid getting beaten up. I realize people don't like to get involved when it has nothing to do with them, but honestly, that's no excuse. I'm a 5'4" female and I've stopped a beating or two of complete strangers in my time, just by refusing to back down and allowing it continue. Scared or not, it's the right thing to do. The criminals run the streets because we let them.

Fear of death only holds you back from doing the right thing. We all die sometime; do you want it to be lying in bed safe and sound while others fight for your safety or do you want to be someone who makes a difference and dies doing the right thing?

[edit on 20-7-2006 by Duzey]

Silly Canadians, visit Detroit.

Just kidding...it sounds aweful. Isn't it pretty tough to get a gun up Nawth? Its gravy to get one around here, but I was under the impression that firearms were hard to come by illegally in Candanadia,

No, not really. You just wait for someone to come visit from Detroit.

I've never tried to get a handgun, but I can't imagine it would be that hard. You just have to know the right kind of people. The drug dealers trade Canadian pot straight across for US guns and coc aine.

If I really tried, I could probably arrange to have one by the end of the weekend. If I lived where DE does, I could probably have it by the end of the day. Where I am, the criminals keep the violence in the family. The Hells Angels have mucho power in my city and they keep the rest of the gangs in line.

Duzey, you're right again. It would prolly take me a matter of hours ot get a handgun in this city. But then again, I'm the law abiding type, and I'd rather not get an illegal firearm. Getting a legal one would take months at the very least.

AS for concealed carry, I know that not a lot of Canadians would actually object and whine about it, but not a ton would actually USE it. I would. Of course, some checking along nets us the fact that we DO in fact have a CCW law on the books.

PART 1
CIRCUMSTANCES IN WHICH AN INDIVIDUAL NEEDS RESTRICTED FIREARMS OR PROHIBITED HANDGUNS FOR THE PURPOSE OF SECTION 20 OF THE ACT

Protection of Life

2. For the purpose of section 20 of the Act, the circumstances in which an individual needs restricted firearms or prohibited handguns to protect the life of that individual or of other individuals are where

(a) the life of that individual, or other individuals, is in imminent danger from one or more other individuals;

(b) police protection is not sufficient in the circumstances; and

(c) the possession of a restricted firearm or prohibited handgun can reasonably be justified for protecting the individual or other individuals from death or grievous bodily harm.

From: laws.justice.gc.ca...

To sum it up, you have to be trained, be able to prove your life is in imminent danger, and you're only allowed whatever firearm the CFO says is 'appropriate'. Also, after a little checking around, there are ZERO cases where the CFO has actually allowed a person to carry concealed. I mean it's there...why not use it? If you have to meet all these restrictions beforehand anyways, might as well give it a try.

This wouldn't be neccesary if we didn't have the gun problem - the one that already gives every advantage to the Bad Guys, the one that doesn't keep them in jail. So, the short and long of it is that I'd have to prove a whole whack of crap...to the point where this is unreasonable. Kinda makes me iffy about living in Toronto anymore.

DE

So, to bring this up again, my girlfriend's ex got woken up by a crackhead trying to steal his TV. He ran the girl off with a baseball bat, but hey. dangerous stuff. What do y'all think of THEM apples!

I mean, it could have been worse...could have been a male crackhead with a knife. That could have been troubles. Not bloody likely that this rockhead will ever be caught, but at least he didn't get ripped for his Xbox.

DE

Toronto sounds like a scary place to be living right now.

I've been hearing about the Guardian Angels starting patrols in Toronto. How do you feel about that? Like it, hate it or of mixed feelings? I'm wondering because in the past week I've been hearing some talk about them coming to Vancouver and I'm not sure how I feel about it.

Yup, sure is a scary place in the Big Smoke... handguns - anything required is available from local bad guys McCheap for crap weaponry - and just as quick as Mickey Dees to access. Generally high-end stuff isn't readily available. Flemington Park is a no-go zone for all but the fool-hardy... gettin' like Jane-Finch only with more folks crammed into a smaller area.

My part of Scarberia used to be really, really bad from about 93'-98' (crack). A nice kid Cristy Cristy of 14 or 15 years old whose mom sold pot quite openly got both barrels in the belly from a neighbour of 12 years of age who wanted "the money." She said no, she's dead, the kid-shooter is still in this neighbourhood after serving a few years at the advanced school of criminal training and networking that is our youth justice system.

Some folks'll flame me for this, where I live, (Kennedy & 401) when I moved here in 88', it was predominantly oriental and white, then in a short span it was primarily black and now it is overwhelmingly folks of Arabic and Somali origins and guess what? It is much "calmer" with the arrival of folks from the M-E and Somalia - honest. With the exception of the Glamorgan Projects (which is gang turf and another no-go zone) my 'hood is pretty good and seems to be improving with time. I now live in a quiet neighbourhood. That may change.

The Guardian Angels days are numbered... local legislators will find a way to make such psuedo-paramilitary-citizen groups go bye-bye. They are workin' on it as a municipal election issue - all three parties to the best of my knowledge. There are many, many reasons why this will happen - primarily they don't want the Angels because it smacks of a society and police force that can't adequately defend our citizens... how long before one of these well-meaning folks gets popped? I'm thinking sooner rather than later... they are being watched and followed by both the good guys and the bad guys and are ineffectual and they don't have guns. The good guys need guns - lots of guns. Boots on the street not in the cruser or donut shop... my neighbourhood is hardly patrolled at all and never by shoe leather. They don't get it.

From experience where I live - emergency police calls take only a few minutes if it is a domestic, banger-down's may not even be reported sometimes. Police response to the Projects I mentioned is way slow cuz they can't go there without a bird dog advance first to show the crews (which have the 'hood wired for video and so do we - it is a small help) they're "in country" so the gangs can clear-off as the tac units roll in. Non-emergent calls take hours - 4 to be exact in one case in my building. Ambulance calls are about the same story and often have police escort. My building doesn't suffer as much slow response but it ain't great. Fire Department response is excellent - under 5 minutes.

Legal guns are a tough nut to crack. They are and are not available. We have a champion pistol shooter on our floor and she even gets hassled. Long guns are subject to all kinds of checks and balances and bureaucracy but you can still get them. I'm glad all our serious (and quite legal) stuff is buried in the hill in Algonguin.

My missus is my weapon - slalom sports racer, 3rd dan BB and a longbow champ - she does this kata thing with the butterfly swords that is soooooooooo sexy (she's a First Nations person) and social worker, chopper pilot and a published authour in several languages. For big jobs "humungous" has that dialed-in 5x5 he's ex-recon PPCLI and a marksman who has won several international competitions (including a William Tell win years back) and crew.

A word to the urban-wise - know at least some local "minor" bad guys as they will keep you abreast of "the state of the hood" and in a jam use their name as a get out of ghetto-pass. We even employ some ex-bangers to keep our building "clean" and this has worked well for 5 or 6 years with zero B&E's.

We do not believe in having firearm type weapons in a home in this city is helpful for us in particular. If western civilization crashes or some other event we have had plans for years to bug out on about 10 minutes notice... BTW the fastest way out of a city in an evac sitch is by bicycle... or the company Murphy 44 egg-beater, think Katrina et al and the highways.

For me the future stable security of this city depends on community policing with way, way, way, way more street officers - boots on the ground - all day every day. Enough so they really are a deterent and have a good grasp of the people in the 'hood - good and bad folks. This is unlikely to occur as the current department just plain doesn't do that. The courts and laws are a joke and the sentencing only makes crime more likely in every way.

My little atomic time clock in my head says beautiful-she-who-must-be-obeyed-and-collects-speeding-tickets and I are on track to eject for Northern Ontario mid '08. The only reason I stay here now is the airport but I'll be retiring to my not-day job and already have all the stuff in place on a large tract of paid for land... jus' waitin' for things to go poof and I'm history - back to being a country boy.

Victor K.

[edit on 2-8-2006 by V Kaminski]

Yeah, I'm going to have to agree. Even though I'd rather keep the Angels around, a bunch of them are gonna get real hurt, real quick. Normally, just sec guards would get hurt, and no one cares about THAT...

I've done some security work in Missasauga and a few other places. Conditions are skanky at best. No company I've ever worked for issues vests, batons, or handcuffs, they both sent me out on my own for patrols, and insisted on niceties being ahead of practicalities. I was lucky- the first bunch I worked for had a wekk hold on paychecks, and whined about me not having boots I couldn't afford. They fired me, and a week or two later a guy got popped across the street on what would have been my shift. The assailant fled across my parking lot. I'm not kidding when I say that the army is safer.

It's getting worse, and not better. Want to know my barometer? O-town. It's the richest, whitest place in the country as far as I know. Theoretically, the crime here should be almost nil. Then again, we've had some new phenomena here, as far as crime is concerned. A drug murder last year, a shooting in a mall this year, and last month a vicious gang assault. This is barometer: if crime is getting THIS stupid here, how bad will it be city-wide.

As for response times...well, EMTs and police are getting way more cautious after a spate of police shootings, and bangers skipping rounds off the hoods of ambulances. I've said it a few times, TPS is hardcore underfunded. The reason they're not hoofing it around the hood, Kaminski? No one to do it. Hell, they have a hard enough time filling squadcars. Now, with the courts being the way they are...even if we did have the boots filled, the bangers would just be out on the street in three days.

Legal firearms are a pretty iffy thing up here. You don't let anyone ever know you have one, or are thinking about having one, or the police will be so far up your ass they'll be checking your tonsils. You have to go through two or three levels of bureaucrasy, which can remove your right to own for fairly arbitrary reasons. You have to have a liscence to transport, own, and use firearms...a seperate liscence.

I still live under my parent's roof, and so does my brother. My brother brings home the local shovelheads, and commits all sorts of big no-nos under the roof. I can't do anything about it, because I suspect one or more of them are armed, and I know that the courts will only hold them -at max- a week. So, I'm stuck.

At least until my app for 3RCR clears.

DE

I think the Guardian Angels is one of those things that seems like a good idea until someone gets hurt or killed.

It's pretty obvious that we need to put some serious funding towards law enforcement. If we do that, I'd like to see some kind of rules saying they have to spend it on pay raises so that we can make law enforcement an attractive career choice and create thousands of new positions. Street patrol type positions. It will take a while to fill them I'm sure, but it's not like the problem is going to get better by then.

The Young Offenders Act needs to be revisted, as well. Perhaps it should be a one shot deal, and only for minor crimes like theft under $200 aka shoplifting. If you have more than one conviction on your record by the time you turn 18, they stay. Anything like auto theft, dealing drugs or assault is a permanent black mark. That would squash the attitude of 'I can do whatever I want until I'm 18'.

Personally, I would never do security work. I don't see how a windbreaker and a flashlight is supposed to offer me any sort of protection. I also don't get why they expect security guards to protect people against crime for $12 an hour.

12$ an hour? Whoooa. Richer than I've ever been paid. And no, I never felt any compulsion to do my job. I was paid 8-10$ an hour, wear my windbreaker or what have you. If someone was going to vanadalize my building with an iron bar or something, I'd note it down, call the police (if I had a phone...which was only sometimes....and I never ahd a partner) and hide.

The YCJA is a piece of garbage. It encourages crime and recidivism as long as the offender is under 18. They don't care. Look at the Tanner Hopkins case. A sixteen year old crashes a party, and then when the homeowner's son tries to boot him out, the sixteen year old stabs him to death.

www.citynews.ca...

What does he get? Two and a half years, juvenile detention center. Three years of parole afterwards. For murder.

I trust my OWN justice more than the courts. Someone breaks into my house, I'm shooting/stabbing to kill.

DE

We had a case like that out here around ten years ago. A Squamish man named Bob McIntosh was keeping an eye on a friends house and teenager while he was on vacation. The kid had a party and when Bob got there, he got beaten to death. One of the kids who did it was Ryan Aldridge.

His wife, Katy Hutchinson, is an amazingly strong woman and a far better person than I.

Hutchison is often asked about her feelings towards Aldridge. "I have forgiven him, although I was never angry to begin with," she says. "All along, I've been much more concerned with the root causes of the behaviour rather than the behaviour itself." In a way, she says, her lack of rancour towards Aldridge has forced him to confront his actions, rather than simply becoming d efensive.

Her wish is simple: that he's learned from his mistakes and will live a productive life when he gets out of jail. "I'm not a poster person for an ultra-liberal point of view about the justice system, but in this particular situation, with this particular person, I have this view."

Aldridge is "doing everything right" at Matsqui, according to Hutchison-he's keeping a low profile, works out, has signed up for a few courses and appreciates his family more. Although he can apply for day parole in February, she doubts he will. "He's having a hard time accepting [that I forgive him], so until he does that and forgives himself, it's pretty hard for him to move on."

www.sfu.ca...

I don't know if I could be as forgiving as she is. And I certainly wouldn't be able to spend time with him.

That's...not healthy. I'm sure from beyond the grave, her husband is reaaaaaaaaal happy that she's helping the guy who killed him.

However, things are getting worse in the city. Paramedics are now reaching into their own pockets for bulletproof vests due to the fact that if they show up with the police in tow (a neccesity in some areas and events), they WILL get shot at. Here's an example

www.citynews.ca...

I've seen footage of bullet holes in ambulances. While Toronto's crime rate is apparently down, the summer's not over, and we don't have the meth epidemic the West has. Yet. Quick question, Duzey...have you or any member here BESIDES me seen 'The Real Toronto'? It's worth taking a look at.

DE

I haven't been to Toronto in a very, very long time. The last time I was there was over 20 years ago, and even then I was just passing through. I was going to Drumbo.

That's awful that paramedics need to wear bulletproof vests. I've worried about the police dogs not having them (which is changing due to the generosity of donors), but it never occured to me that EMT's might need them as well.

Be glad you don't have our meth problem yet. That's some seriously nasty stuff. My neighbour is a meth head. I found out when she asked me if I wanted to smoke some 'gank' with her. I almost laughed. I'm not skinny enough to be a meth user. :shk:

The sad part is she is much nicer and easier to get along with than my previous neighbour, the drug dealer.

Well, until she microwaves her kid, and takes your TV. It'll happen.

Anyways, there's an impressive DVD called 'The Real Toronto', in which we get to see the finest gangbangers, drug dealers, and criminals that we have to offer, waving around all kinds of weapons. Hell, one or two waved machine pistols. Plenty of really bad freestyle, too.

DE

D'oh! I didn't know we were talking about a DVD. I just googled it and I'm curious to see it. I just don't know if I am curious enough to spend money. When you live in a building with drug dealers and meth users, you put a high priority on keeping your insurance premiums current.

I'm so glad we don't have any major gun issues out west. Yet.

Wait for it, Duzey.

I'd suggest getting your illicit download on for the Real Toronto, if you can find it on Limewire or whatever. And if I were you, I'd check out one of the many self-defence threads on ATS, seriously consider learning to use a firearm. Or moving, moving will help somewhat.

DE

Originally posted by DeusEx
I trust my OWN justice more than the courts. Someone breaks into my house, I'm shooting/stabbing to kill.

I was just rereading the thread when this caught my attention.

In my first post in the thread, I told you about the time I was robbed. At the end of my time with the police, one of them noticed my bat. He looked at me and told me that officially they were to discourage people from fighting back. But if people were to fight back and happen to seriously injure a criminal, and that criminal is lying incapacited inside their home or place of business with not so much as a toe out the door, they acted in self-defence and won't be charged.

Not sure if this is still the case.

I learned how to shoot a long time ago but I just wouldn't feel comfortable having one in my apartment.