You are a racist if you don't want illegals in the US...?

No, True American. I'm just pointing out an obvious mistake you made in your diatribe. That's all.

Unless you wanted to continue to rant about the INS for the rest of this thread in error.

[edit on 23-7-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
No, True American. I'm just pointing out an obvious mistake you made in your diatribe. That's all.

Unless you wanted to continue to rant about the INS for the rest of this thread in error.

Well! Thanks for clearing that up, and you have truely advanced PTS. Someone give the whistleblower an applause! You have saved me from eternal shame.

Now, care to comment on the real points I made ceci, or are we gonna spiral outta control here?

I will. But I would like to give your comments a bit of thought before I answer. You bring up some interesting points I would like to muse upon for a while before I post again.

A criminal is someone who is caught breaking the law. Otherwise, if they are breaking the law and no one sees them, then there is nothing to hold them on in terms of criminality. And without being discovered breaking the law, does that make one a criminal?

Yes, yes it does. If someone is walking into the local grocery store every day, and stealing a candy bar, is a crime not being committed? A crime cannot be committed without a criminal, so just because we don't know who the criminal is, doesn't mean there ISN'T a criminal. All you have to do to be a criminal is to break the law, not get "caught" breaking the law.

Anyway, people are always going to be associated with the activities in which they CHOOSE to participate. Someone who smokes is a smoker, someone who sings is a singer, someone who gambles is a gambler, etc. And sometimes, our actions can have negative connotations. If you don't want to be called a smoker, don't smoke. If you don't want to be called a gambler, don't gamble. Likewise, if you don't want to be called an illegal, don't break the law.

Originally posted by ceci2006
I will. But I would like to give your comments a bit of thought before I answer. You bring up some interesting points I would like to muse upon for a while before I post again.

Fair enough, ceci, my reset button is pushed. Sorry.

Originally posted by ceci2006
A criminal is someone who is caught breaking the law. Otherwise, if they are breaking the law and no one sees them, then there is nothing to hold them on in terms of criminality. And without being discovered breaking the law, does that make one a criminal?

Ahhh. A case of legal semantics. But if a serial killer doesn't get 'caught', it is my opinion that he's still a criminal. If I break the law, regardless of whether or not I get caught and prosecuted, I have still commited a crime.

I guess by your definition, Goerge Bush is not a criminal...

Illegal, as a noun, is doing something not legal. As an adjective, "illegal(s)" is used to describe pejoratively people who have immigrated here and are undocumented.

You have this backwards, but I do see your point. I always have. You think it's offensive to call someone an illegal. I'm sure some are offended by it. And I say, "oh, well." I'm not a hard-hearted person and I do care about other people, but I'm only willing to coddle people so far. There is a point when people have to stand up and take responsibility for what they're doing. There's a point when people have to be responsible for what offends them.

To call an illegal immigrant or an undocumented worker an "illegal" is no different to me than calling one who speeds a speeder. I'm sure to many, it means something different. To you, there's a chance it might lead to something about race. Again, I'm not really that concerned. There are more important things in the world than making sure no one's feelings are hurt and making sure everyone plays nice. To me.

"Illegal" in this sense, dehumanizes the subject so much so that they should not be considered humanely as anyone else.

Wow! Perhaps to you, it does. To me, not so much. I propose that your sensitivity to this word is wrapped up in other issues.

If you aren't concerned for all human beings, then by all means call them "illegals". But the use of the term really makes you seem disrepsectful of another person's humanity and dignity when you do so.

I don't respect everyone. I don't respect people who sell drugs to children. I don't respect people who illegally download music from the Internet. I don't respect people who drink and drive. Why should I respect someone who is mooching off my government? I don't respect legal citizens who do that!

Then why are some posters on this board, when referring to illegal immigrants, call them "trash" and "vermin" in reference to the subject matter? Then, why do others talk about the "Mexican invasion"?

Because that's the way people are. Some people. People are narrow minded, people are racist, people are short-sighted. You aren't going to change that by getting them to use a different word.

In American newspapers in the 18th and 19th century, it was acceptable to use the "n-word" to describe black people. Same type of word. Same medium. Different times, except "illegal" is being replaced by the "n-word".

And how's that working out? I never hear white people use that word. There was a natural progression that took place and the N-word is now used pretty exclusively by black people.

It's a word! If people wouldn't give it so much power, we wouldn't have to go through this progression.

If we called them "pinkbellies" people would eventually associate that with a derogatory meaning because what they're doing is breaking the law. It's not the WORD that's bad, it's what they're doing that gives the word the negative connotation. Eventually, if everyone is forced to use the term "undocumented worker" it will take on the same negative connotation because it's the ACT of coming into this country illegally that is the problem, not the word.

It will be shortened to "undocumented" and used thusly: "Look at all the "undocs" over there... " Then people will be complaining that "undocs" is pejorative. They'll want us all to change over to "guest resident", which at first, has no negative connotation, but eventually will because many people don't like that they're here. That's not going to change with the change of the word.

A word is not going to garner respect for these people. Only their actions can do that.

[edit on 23-7-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

At this point, it's not really that important anymore. I did a lot of thinking about this last night and I've decided to just make my peace with this topic and illegal immigration in general.

So, I accept your opinion. And I accept your right to say "illegal".









[edit on 23-7-2006 by ceci2006]

Well, if you really think about it, most of the US population is descended from Illegals. The Pilgrims did not go through customs.

REPLY: Off topic and silly, as I'm pretty sure there were no immigration laws back then Geez...

I personally have no problem with illegal immigration. Give it 50 years and see if it's still a problem.

REPLY:Can we move a bunch into your house? It's already a big problem

I personally think the American government is not cracking down on immigration and they will legalize a lot because when there is a war they are going to draft many of them.

REPLY: Sorry, no draft unless the dems try to do it; but they won't.

There is no such thing as an "Hispanic" person. It's a term the Left came up with to put many people into one group, so they could cater to them.

If Americans want Canada's cheap drugs, they should seek Canadian citizenship and pay Canadian taxes.

REPLY: yep.... makes sense to me. What people don't realise is that Canada can control the "cost" of the drugs, but they cannot control the "cost" of them. So, every other American who buys those medications here makes up for the loss to the manufactureres.

".... illegals" is a pejorative term..."

REPLY: Ummmmmmm, no...... it's a description: Illegal; Noun def: "Prohibited by law or by official or accepted rules." And I doubt it was first coined in America.

Mexicans in particular have abandoned their county...."

REPLY: true, and they've also abandoned their fellow countrymen. It's "easier" to come here illegaly rather than fix their own corrupt government. Lets face it, Mexico is awash in natural resources, but they lack the individual liberty and freedom to take advantage of it. We're lucky that Obrador wasn't elected, since he's basically has Communist ideals and goals; He's practically joined at the hip to castro and Chavez.

If you think illegal immigration is bad now, wait for a few years if Obrador actually wins.

And what if the Canadians decided to build a fence to keep Americans out of Canada to prevent them from buying drugs? The uproar would be tremendous.

REPLY: Yes, it would, and it would be a good thing for those on both sides of that fence. By the way......... "undocumented worker" is a PC term for law-breakers and criminals. PC terminology has been a great detriment to our society. Don't fall for it.


[edit on 24-7-2006 by zappafan1]

: Does anyone think that illegal immigrants are so inhuman that they don't have feelings?

REPLY: That's "touchy-feely" crap-ola. If they break the law, are homo's, etc, etc, I don't care what they think. You are basing your ideas that you can hurt someones feelings by calling them a descriptive/accurate name. It's impossible. They have to AGREE to be offended; it's their choice; it's a feeling they have to agree with themselves to have.

Snazuolu. You most emphatically do not speak for me. I've been a member of the work force in one shape or form since my first paper route at age 11. My work ethic is a match for anyone you care to name.

I've worked long cold days and nights on fishing boats for longer than I care to contemplate. I've worked docks for the same long cold days and nights. You get my point I hope? You speak for yourself, and yourself only. You may be fat lazy and expect things to be handed to you on a platter, I don't, everything I have or will have I've earned by the sweat of my brow, and I don't expect that to end anytime soon.

Illegal aliens are here because the people who hire them know that they can get away with paying them slave wages, the which they could not do to legal citizens. There is no other reason than greed, plain and simple.

I agree with a lot that zappafan had to say. I live in Texas, and illegal immigration is a huge problem here. There was a time not too long ago where I was side swiped by a motorist who happened to be an illegal immigrant. She couldnt speak any english, but I gave her my cellphone in hopes that she could call someone to help her and to translate for us that I needed her insurance information. Her husband eventually shows up and explains that they are not legal and, of course, had no insurance. I explained to him that they needed to remain at the scene because I had called the police to file a police report. Upon hearing this he instructed his wife to get in the car and they both took off before the police arrived. The saddest part of this isn't the fact that I was stuck with thousands of dollars worth of damage on a brand new car because they chose not to take care of legal responsibilites. The saddest part is how the police officer explained to me that I, and anyone else who values financial stability, should get special coverage on my insurance that covers for uninsured motorists (specifically because of Texas' rampant illegal immigration problem). A lot of the illegals will buy cheap cars, and will not carry insurance on them simply because they cant. I realize that this can happen with any race, but where I am from this problem has a major slant towards illegal hispanics from mexico.

Taxpayers in British Columbia are footing the medical bills for thousands of foreigners who visit the province, and government officials are looking at ways to get them to pay it back.

This is SOOOOO off-topic: why would anyone want to go to Canada for health care, considering the state of their medical system?

No, I won't respond to any comments; it should be another thread.

The whole idea of this being a racial issue is crap-ola..... as is racial profiling.

Well, I am an immigrant... and when i landed in the USA, I had to pay a bunch of money in fees and spend hours at the INS office line in the burning sun. Than I had my SS number mixed with an Arabic person which gave me even more stuff to solve. Only after that was I able to find a job. So why would anyone have it easier ?

In fact it is in the illigal immigrants best interest to be legalized, so they don't end up beeing exploited unde the threat of beeing "snicthed about" to the INS.

These days the word "racist" is thrown around like the word "love" ... everyone "loves eachother" and anyone who says something you don't like is a "racist".

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
These days the word "racist" is thrown around like the word "love" ... everyone "loves eachother" and anyone who says something you don't like is a "racist".

Well, that might be pushing it just a bit there BaastetNoir. And I am pushing it with the thread title and concept as well. Not every single illegal immigrant will have the same view. It's just that every one that I have talked to about it has.

So now I have come to the conclusion that there IS no talking to them about it, unless you like being called a racist. Which I don't. And am not. And yup, I'm stereotyping. Sorry, but I am. And the more they call me a racist, the more I am going to keep stereotyping. It's my problem really, not ya'alls. But hey this is PTS, I get to whine.

[edit on 25-7-2006 by TrueAmerican]

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
Well, I am an immigrant... and when i landed in the USA, I had to pay a bunch of money in fees and spend hours at the INS office line in the burning sun. Than I had my SS number mixed with an Arabic person which gave me even more stuff to solve. Only after that was I able to find a job. So why would anyone have it easier ?

This is one of the biggest points to be made. I've known many people who worked really hard to become a citizen here. For people to just take what the US has to offer, without going through what people do to legally obtain it, is really a slap in the face.

Something else that occured to me today brought me back to this thread. And it is about calling illegal immigrants "undocumented workers". This moniker is inaccurate.

Some people who are here illegally do work, and some do the really tough work that some of us would rather not do. That's true. But we can't accurately replace 'illegal immigrant' with 'undocumented worker' because I don't know what percentage of them are working in the fields, but it certainly isn't 100%.

Some percentage are working in other jobs. Jobs legal citizens or immigrants would be happy to do. Some aren't working. Some are in our schools. Some are living off our welfare system. If a man has 15 of his family here and he's the only one working, 14 of them are NOT undocumented workers.

My point is simply that we cannot accurately call them undocumented workers because many of them aren't.

This practice stems from the same folks who insist on calling bums and vagrants homeless. I worked with the homeless population and the fact is that few are genuinely homeless. Most are not welcome in their homes because of a variety of problems, some of their own making, some not. Creating a blanket term of victimization, however, suits the political agendas of some.

Maybe we need to start clarifying the difference between racism and reasonable self interest a bit more clearly. Too many people use racism as a tool for inhibiting opinion these days. Everyone, no matter what there race culture or lifestyle should be open to criticism and challenged on their actions.

Originally posted by ubermunche
Maybe we need to start clarifying the difference between racism and reasonable self interest a bit more clearly. Too many people use racism as a tool for inhibiting opinion these days. Everyone, no matter what there race culture or lifestyle should be open to criticism and challenged on their actions.

I think you are zeroing in on the problem quite nicely, uber. Because there certainly is a self interest on the part of the illegals to remain here working, as much as there is a self interest on the part of citizens to have immigrants use the legal system of immigration. If an illegal could give me one good reason why they are all of a sudden so special that they should be able to be allowed to break immigration law and violate the border, I'd be all ears. But resorting to calling me a racist when they can't provide the reason will only be met by threads like this from me, sorry.