You are correct that is a statement made by Libertarians, but i wouldnt consider myself one. I believe in a strong welfare state, and economic control of the government, which all libertarians would hate......

I still dont believe that no matter how many guns the U.S. citizens have, they will still not have the power to overthrow their government. Lets say people did revolt with violence, the media would portray them as loonie gun nuts thus breaking up the organisation of the masses, as some people will agree with you and others wont. Then the government will have full suport to take out the dissenters, with any force neccesary, to save "freedom and democracy". Then you wont be facing troops on the group, but will be in a situation similar to whats happening in Lebanon. Unconventional war, in which you conventional weapons will be useless.

Again i will state, arms are not power, knowledge is power

If I may interject..

If you had a large majority, say 65+% of the American
populace revolting, than it would work, since not only would
you have a huge majority, but of the remaining between
30 and 50% would either be supporting of it, or just not caring.

Also, since I did'nt add it to my original post,
I support/believe in the right to bear arms.


Also, wang, is your avatar of moondoggy?

[edit on 7/31/2006 by iori_komei]

Originally posted by wang
You are correct that is a statement made by Libertarians, but i wouldnt consider myself one.

It sounds like you have more in common with libertarians than you do the demopublican cult of corruption.

I believe in a strong welfare state

I presume you mean more social programs provided by the government. Could you be more specific? Many things can be argued from a libertarian perspective including social programs.

and economic control of the government

A libertarian would love economic controls on the government. We already have economic control by the government and that isnt working out really well.

Again i will state, arms are not power, knowledge is power

I have a different point of view. Arms are used to insure that the power of knowledge survives. Without arms our knowledge will be destroyed just as easily as the ancient knowledge was destroyed in the library in alexandria by the better armed which were ignorant of what they were destroying.

It seems that your views span the entire political spectrum:

Originally posted by wang
main stream libertarians believe welfare is counter productive.

from libertarian on individual rights issues

When i said economic control of the government, i meant the means of production should be owned by the government.

to seemingly socialist on economic issues.

Can you expand a bit more on each and how you reconcile the conflict between this broad range of beliefs? Or why you dont see a conflict. Im not looking to debate or persuade you one way or another, Im just trying to find some common ground that most liberals share.

Also Id like to hear a lot more from you on government ownership of production, though this is far left of liberal. Ive worked in both the private & government sectors and to be quite honest I do not see any positive difference between the employee/management relations of either style of production ownership. Ive found that the working environment is typically more positive for me in a small business where owner of the business works hands on and is accessable to employees. The difference between a big business and government to the employee is negligible.
.

Originally posted by df1
It seems that your views span the entire political spectrum:

Originally posted by wang
main stream libertarians believe welfare is counter productive.

from libertarian on individual rights issues

When i said economic control of the government, i meant the means of production should be owned by the government.

to seemingly socialist on economic issues.

Can you expand a bit more on each and how you reconcile the conflict between this broad range of beliefs? Or why you dont see a conflict. Im not looking to debate or persuade you one way or another, Im just trying to find some common ground that most liberals share.

Also Id like to hear a lot more from you on government ownership of production, though this is far left of liberal. Ive worked in both the private & government sectors and to be quite honest I do not see any positive difference between the employee/management relations of either style of production ownership. Ive found that the working environment is typically more positive for me in a small business where owner of the business works hands on and is accessable to employees. The difference between a big business and government to the employee is negligible.
.

I know that my view on individual rights and the economy are from the different sides of the spectrum, and hoenstly i dont see a conflict between the two. I have my own personal freedom to do what i want socialy, but within the economic restraints of the government. At first the economic restraints may hinder some people at the start, but as the economy gets into full motion, the restraints i believe would become loosend and people would be able to enjoy all the freedoms they have now and more.

Now my view on the ownership of production by the government stands simply on the belief that i think that the profits made from the production and sale of products should not be going to a private person and companies but rather the community at large. Now that does not mean that small business doesnt exist, its just that small business would only exist if the government deemed it to be neccesary. I believe that the production efficeincy would be hardly any different, but the profits gained would go back into the system. Then with referendums the money would be decided in which area the money needed to be distributed. But basicly, i believe for this to be neccesary you do need a form of direct democracy, just simply appointed experts to decide what is best for the people will not cut it, the people need to decide for themselves. But on that, at the moment the masses dont have the political conciousness to accurately decide what they want. That is the biggest problem i believe in my political beliefs, but i counter that arguement with the fact that i believe that people need to become more politicaly active, and that education about politics are not kept to the elite, but should be in every school curriculum.

I'm liberal simply because i feel that human beings have the right to any damned thing they please, so long as it doesn't interfere with someone elses life or lifestyle.

i'm conservative because i'm realistic about the intelligence level of most people and how they would react to the freedom i think we should have.

I believe in truth in the media, not "truthiness".

I believe that the free flow of CORRECT information is vital to a healthy democracy.

I believe that the resources this planet offers should be husbanded with care.

I believe that the poorest people should pay the least taxes.

I believe nations should have the right to control their own resources.

I believe in radical democracy in the workplace and the collective ownership of businesses.

I believe that the basics of life - water, energy, healthcare - should be provided by publicly-owned companies with a charter to promote efficiency and reduce waste.

I believe in freedom of speech and of worship.

I believe in equality for all regardless of skin colour or sex.

I believe that a variety of ownership is essential to a free media, and that companies that own media should ONLY own media - that way you can't have arms manufacturers owning tame media companies.

I believe that the only excuse for militarism is a clear and present danger of invasion.

I wouldn't consider myself a liberal, though.

Who do you believe is the public face that best represents the ideology of liberalism? The conservatives still parade reagan around and they have the talk show cabal of limbaugh, hannity, boortz & coulter.

FDR?

Hillary?

Al Franken?

Randi Rhoades?

John stewart hands down.... atleast modern liberalism.... i honestly believe that FDR was more of an authoritarian than a liberal... albiet a benevolent authoritartarian still a authortitarian... but John stewart for face of liberalism today hands down.

I think the best representation of liberlism, is the great liberal himself, John Locke.
Classical Liberlism, i believe is true liberlism, other forms of it are just putting in other idealogical arguements with liberalism.

These have been some great posts so far. I'm going to put my printer in overdrive and print them all then see if I can come to a concensus as to just what it means to be Liberal in todays world.

Great work folks

wupy

Originally posted by rich23
I believe in truth in the media, not "truthiness".

I believe that the free flow of CORRECT information is vital to a healthy democracy.

I believe that the resources this planet offers should be husbanded with care.

I believe that the poorest people should pay the least taxes.

I believe nations should have the right to control their own resources.

I believe in radical democracy in the workplace and the collective ownership of businesses.

I believe that the basics of life - water, energy, healthcare - should be provided by publicly-owned companies with a charter to promote efficiency and reduce waste.

I believe in freedom of speech and of worship.

I believe in equality for all regardless of skin colour or sex.

I believe that a variety of ownership is essential to a free media, and that companies that own media should ONLY own media - that way you can't have arms manufacturers owning tame media companies.

I believe that the only excuse for militarism is a clear and present danger of invasion.

I wouldn't consider myself a liberal, though.

Wow. Just wow.

The best proof I've seen yet that the campaign to turn "liberal" into a dirty word has succeeded.

Liberals obviously are still around -- every one of those things you listed is a liberal position straight and clear -- but they don't know what to call themselves any more.

I'm impressed. In a nauseated kind of way.

I consider myself a liberal because I believe in the rights of the many over the privileges of the few. Everything comes down to that. All other definitions of "liberal" are confusions of means with ends.

Liberals don't champion "big government." They champion the rights of the many over the privileges of the few, and "big government" has at times been a tool employed to that end.

Liberals don't champion "limited government," either. They champion the rights of the many over the privileges of the few, and restraints on government to prevent it from becoming a supporter of entrenched privilege (which it has been far too often in history) and infringing the rights of the people, is a tool employed to that end.

About guns and overthrow of the government. Please note that a disarmed populace overthrew the Soviet Union and all of its eastern European satellites, nonviolently. If an armed populace is required to overthrow a tyrannical government, this phenomenon is difficult to explain, no?

Trying to make everyone the same.

Conservatives are trying to make everyone the same? Well it depends in what facet of life you look at..... Economically speaking, I think conservatives want us all to be much different!

Originally posted by mrwupy
1. How should this statement be titled? (Example: Our Liberal beliefs or We as Liberals proclaim or etc, etc)

2. What do you hold dear that makes you consider yourself to be a Liberal? List as many Ideas as you wish.

3. What do you most oppose in the conservative movement?

4. How would you like this presentation to be?

5. Can you share any links or sites that can be informative on that which I plan to compose?

6. Be honest.(And if possible, eloquent)

I think this thread should be titled "The Beilefs of Ours, Your's, and My Liberal Ways." What I hold dear to me to consider myself a Liberal is that I am very open minded. If I have something to say against the current administration, I'll say it no matter if I'm out in public or not. I also hold this dear to me, and that is we can't really do anything about terrorism unlike what this current administration's believes are.

The one of many things that I oppose in the conservative movement is their view on abortion. Do these people ever think that an abortion may be helpful to someone? They don't realize that some women are unable bear children because it may hurt or kill the mother or the child or both. Plus, isn't it real strange how someone can be pro-life and yet support the death penalty?

I would like the presentation to one of a public forum like what we have. I mean it can be elegant and polite and still get to the point without a lot of swearing. I would also want this presentation to be very informative to people that view it and take part in it. At this time, I unfortunately cannot find any links or websites that can help. If I do, I will most certainly post them on here.

The Liberality of Liberalism (multi-faceted all encompassing term)

I FULLY cherish My personality, My individuality, My beliefs, My thoughts, My FREEDOM. I enjoy being able to decide what I believe should right or wrong, with out the omnipresent under tones of condescension. I thrive on open levels of acceptance and understanding without the lingering stench of judgment. I thrive on choice, of words, of morals, of individualism.

With Conservatism: The restraints placed upon social issues muffles an individual’s ability to personally establish how they define themselves. By suppressing diverse personal preferences, by negatively portraying all concepts that contradict their unchangeable limited ideations, and encouragingly advertising their preferential ways of being, the beauty of individualism, freedom to question, and power of autonomy gets lost.

I am a liberal because I don't like Stephen Harper dragging Canadians into affairs which matter not to Canadians. Liberal Leader Stephen Dion will bring the liberals back into majority at the next election and come down hard on environmental issues and other such issues that matter to Canadians.

Such American issues which need not be followed include War and following the US economy into disarray.

What it comes down to in being a liberal? Coming to the realization that the disoriented Conservative leader Stephen Harper can't find his ball bearings.

In the US I would probably be considered liberal, more likely a socialist.

Why because I care what happens to people I don't know.

Why am I Liberal?

1. Because I read a whole book (rather than rent a movie).

2. Because I can finish a whole sentence.

3. Because I rather understand than judge.

4. Because Liberal is not a bad word.