Christianity and War

Definitions:

Chrisitanity: completely and constantly following the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

War: a person, group, or nation inflicting violence against another person, group, or nation. Included is threats of violence.

Where there is war, there is no Christianity. Only complete and constant Christianity would make this a warless world. I consider all nations with a military that is violent or "threatening-violent" a non-Christian nation.

Only complete and constant Christianity would make this a warless world

Quick question... Ok, a few questions.... Why is it that you think this statement is true? Do you think that there aren't any other peaceful religions in the world? I can assure you there are. For example, I'm Pagan. Paganism is a passive religion. Live and let live. How many wars have been started in the name of Christianity? Ok, now how many wars have been started in the name of Paganism? Can you explain why you believe that the above quoted statement is correct?

Originally posted by Jenna

Only complete and constant Christianity would make this a warless world

Quick question... Ok, a few questions.... Why is it that you think this statement is true? Do you think that there aren't any other peaceful religions in the world? I can assure you there are. For example, I'm Pagan. Paganism is a passive religion. Live and let live. How many wars have been started in the name of Christianity? Ok, now how many wars have been started in the name of Paganism? Can you explain why you believe that the above quoted statement is correct?

How many wars have been started in the name of Christianity? Plenty

How many wars have been started by Christians? None.

How many wars have been started by paganism? Problably all of them. You do understand that Nazis have pagan roots. How about Islam? Pagan roots.

You simply need an education of the truth.

How about Islam? Pagan roots

Wrong Islam like Judiasm and all of the Judeo xian flavors d'jure are" people of the book." All decendants of Abram.

How many wars have been started by Christians? None.

Wrong. in general all the crusades were initated by xians. In specific i would direct your meager attention to the Albigensien crusade, IE the crusade of the RCC (christians)
to destroy, decimate, end for all times, the Cathar Christians. It was from this xian war
that the now famous quote , " kill them all , God will know his own." comes. Uttered at the town of Beziers by the papal legate as I recall.

Need I mention all the wars against the Native American Peoples?

Chrisitanity: completely and constantly following the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

HMMMMM, dont recall seeing this one. Have read the gospels of the NT, The Gnostic Gospels, The Lost Gospels, The Apocrapha, The DSS, the Nag Hammadi Library,
the Speculation and theory of the Q document, butI have not seen or even remember a reference to a " Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

You do understand that Nazis have pagan roots.

Nope a few had NEO pagan beliefs. At least to use an oft quoted fundie expression,
They were "SELF PROFESSED" neopagans.

You simply need an education of the truth.

of what truth do you speak? there are many truths, but to quote one of the xian
church fathers, " not all truths are for all men."
Maybe some of these truths are beyond you?

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

Author: Stephen Roberts


[edit on 16-7-2006 by stalkingwolf]

Originally posted by Jenna


Quick question... Ok, a few questions.... Why is it that you think this statement is true? Do you think that there aren't any other peaceful religions in the world? I can assure you there are. For example, I'm Pagan. Paganism is a passive religion. Live and let live. How many wars have been started in the name of Christianity? Ok, now how many wars have been started in the name of Paganism? Can you explain why you believe that the above quoted statement is correct?

The Truest form of Christianity is Spiritual Bliss, Joy, and Contentment. It is nonviolent and nonwarlike in all its aspects. No war or violence has been perpetrated by any True Christian. For those who have a "past" there is the Sacrament of Penance.

There are other peaceful religions in the world but they lack the True Submissiveness, Humility, and Glory of True Christianity. Deny oneself and realize that you are part of the Holy Trinity's Creation. It is my belief that paganism is a short-term religion for rebellious types and has no eternal longevity. God will let you know sooner or later that He exists.

Wrong Islam like Judiasm and all of the Judeo xian flavors d'jure are" people of the book." All decendants of Abram.

An education in the pagan moon god might help, as would an education about Muhammed.

Wrong. in general all the crusades were initated by xians. In specific i would direct your meager attention to the Albigensien crusade, IE the crusade of the RCC (christians)

Wars in the name of Christianity and not by Christians. I suggest you do a little research on pagan high priest and sun god Pontiff emperor Constantine.

Need I mention all the wars against the Native American Peoples?

Yes you need to. Can you educate me on how Christians were responsible for these wars? What wars specifically and how were Christians responsible?

Originally posted by GreatTech
The Truest form of Christianity is Spiritual Bliss, Joy, and Contentment. It is nonviolent and nonwarlike in all its aspects. No war or violence has been perpetrated by any True Christian.

The combination of points in your above quoted statements are contradictory at every turn:

• There is no 'truest' form of christianity--in regard to following Christ--he did not come to start a religion of any sort; the name christian was applied to his disciples by those who were NOT his disciples (it was a derogatory term from the start and never applied by those 'within')
  
• The 'truest' form of christianity would be the form approved first by Constantine and later authorized as the only legal religion by Theodosius I--and in that case, would be characterized by political oppression, limited personal freedoms, and a penchant for war on every point of contention (especially the one which is 'regarding just what it means to be a christian')
  
• The bible says nothing about happiness, contentment, or bliss (in the present age for those who would seek God). It basically outlines the journey as something similar to tranversing the Namib, alone, on hands and knees--wearing gloves and kneepads specially lined with small sharp tacks....and don't forget that cross/monkey that is strapped upon your back...
  
  
  
  
  Either way--one travelling in that fashion has no use or time for something such as war.
  
  
  

  
  For those who have a "past" there is the Sacrament of Penance.

  
  We all have a 'past'. :shk: This is something supposedly remedied by 'christianity'--by Christ--not by sacraments performed by penitents.
  
  

  
  There are other peaceful religions in the world but they lack the True Submissiveness, Humility, and Glory of True Christianity.

  
  The truly humble and submissive servant of glory has no use for capitalization.
  
  Humility doesn't come from peace nor bliss and contentment. Humility comes from chastisement and suffering, grief and pain.
  
  

  
  It is my belief that paganism is a short-term religion for rebellious types and has no eternal longevity. God will let you know sooner or later that He exists.

  
  If it weren't for rebellion, in the first place, there would be no existence. Judge not that which is outside of your scope of experience.
  
  
  For Sun Matrix:
  
  The most massive genocide the world has ever known was inflicted upon the indigenous peoples of North America--in the name of 'christianizing the heathen.'
  
  Do your homework.

The Truest form of Christianity is Spiritual Bliss, Joy, and Contentment. It is nonviolent and nonwarlike in all its aspects. No war or violence has been perpetrated by any True Christian.

Then there have been very few true Christians in the entire history of Christianity. When Christianity caught on as a religion most people were pagan, which by the way disqualifies it as a short-term religion but I'll get to that later. As the religion advanced there were numerous crusades and conquests in the name of Christ or Christianity or some variation thereof. The basic purpose of most of these quests was the "conversion" of the "heathens" to Christianity, and if they refused to convert they were usually slaughtered. Not killed, slaughtered.

Not to mention the fact that a lot of, if not all, the Christian customs and holidays are complete copies or closely related copies of the early Pagan customs and holidays. Easter? Try Ostara. Christmas? Try Yule. A Christian wedding? Try a Handfasting. Even the dancing around the Maypole was taken from a Pagan custom celebrating the union of the Goddess and the God. Anyway, I digress.

For those who have a "past" there is the Sacrament of Penance.

As was stated by queenannie, everyone has a past. If you have no past, you have no present, and thus no future. Point being, if you don't have a past you simply don't exist.

There are other peaceful religions in the world but they lack the True Submissiveness, Humility, and Glory of True Christianity. Deny oneself and realize that you are part of the Holy Trinity's Creation. It is my belief that paganism is a short-term religion for rebellious types and has no eternal longevity. God will let you know sooner or later that He exists.

Personally I think that any requirement to be submissive should be questioned. If it were a person of the opposite sex telling you that you had to be completely submissive to them in all things if you wanted to be with them, would you do it unquestioningly? Most people simply would not. A requirement of submissiveness leads me to think there is a reason that whoever is in charge does not want to be questioned and that reason is probably not a very good one. As for humility...

Dictionary.com
hu·mil·i·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hy-ml-t)
n.
The quality or condition of being humble.

Well, that doesn't give us much to go on.. So... Here's the definition of humble...

Dictionary.com
hum·ble ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hmbl)
adj. hum·bler, hum·blest
Marked by meekness or modesty in behavior, attitude, or spirit; not arrogant or prideful.
Showing deferential or submissive respect: a humble apology.
Low in rank, quality, or station; unpretentious or lowly: a humble cottage.

tr.v. hum·bled, hum·bling, hum·bles
To curtail or destroy the pride of; humiliate.
To cause to be meek or modest in spirit.
To give a lower condition or station to; abase. See Synonyms at degrade.

I've bolded the parts I find particularly interesting and to the point. If someone wants you humble, they want you to be meek, submissive, to feel you are low in quality, and they are trying to destroy your pride, humiliate you, give you a lower condition, and degrade you...

How on earth can anyone honestly think that anyone or anything demanding you, or even just asking you for that matter, to be humble is a good thing? It is beyond me why anyone would think it's necessary to allow their god to degrade them! That is the basic meaning of being humbled, yet thousands of people unquestioningly follow Christianity.

Now I'm not trying to convert anyone here, I'm merely asking that you ask questions of your self and your religion. If you never question, you will never learn. Isn't that why we are all here? To learn and deny ignorance?

Chris·ti·an·i·ty (krĭs'chē-ăn'ĭ-tē, krĭs'tē-)
n.
The Christian religion, founded on the life and teachings of Jesus.
Christians as a group; Christendom.
The state or fact of being a Christian.
pl. -ties. A particular form or sect of the Christian religion: the Christianities of antiquity.

A brief discription of how war came about over religion's.

For 250 years it was a martyrs' church; the persecutions were fueled by the refusal of Christians to worship the state and the Roman emperor. There were persecutions under Nero, Domitian, Trajan and the other Antonines, Maximin, Decius, Valerian, and Diocletian and Galerius; Decius ordered the first official persecution in 250. In 313, Constantine I and Licinius announced toleration of Christianity in the Edict of Milan. In the East the church passed from persecution directly to imperial control (caesaropapism), inaugurated by Constantine, enshrined later in Justinian's laws, and always a problem for the Orthodox churches. In the West the church remained independent because of the weakness of the emperor and the well-established authority of the bishop of Rome.

And for the "Neo Nazi" statememt's, (And I am German BTW)

German invasions slowed the conversion of Western Europe (e.g., that of England was recommenced in the 6th cent.). Most of the first invaders were converted to Arian Christianity, but the pagan Franks (with Clovis) adopted orthodox Christianity, a fact that probably helped to consolidate their rule. Out of this kingdom came Pepin and Charlemagne, who, by alliance with the papacy and proclamation of an empire (800), charted an ideal of the Middle Ages.

And then of course you have the full over view of what being a "Christian" was supposed to be.

Christianity

The religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, sent by God. They believe that Jesus, by dying and rising from the dead, made up for the sin of Adam and thus redeemed the world, allowing all who believe in him to enter heaven. Christians rely on the Bible as the inspired word of God. (See also gospel, Nativity, Resurrection, salvation, and Sermon on the Mount.)

There is a lot of information on how "Cruel" the earky christians were in the past, the Vatican won't even disclose written text of the original bible because of teh atrocities that were commited by some christians. War , I think, is man's huge life sized game of chess, "Now there is a game created on proper concept's of rivalry!!"

The 'truest' form of christianity would be the form approved first by Constantine and later authorized as the only legal religion by Theodosius I

This may be your most outrageous twisting of the truth yet. You telling me the hight priest and Pontiff of sun worship had the truest form of Christianity. I would laugh but the sickness of the comment won't allow it.

As far as the Indian comment, and I thought it was all about the land.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
You telling me the hight priest and Pontiff of sun worship had the truest form of Christianity.

Over your head, obviously.

There is no 'true' form of christianity--in the pure definition of 'following Christ.' If there were, the question of christianity related to wars would be a mute point. It is a man-made religion--as are all religions. Man serves his own ego with religion--to serve God is to serve others, in love and in truth. The latter being something you demonstrate blatant inability to recognize; leading you to a propensity to scorn same. Your attitude betrays you more than you realize.

As for the Indians, once again: do your homework.

Jenna:

You make excellent points regarding humility. The way I understand it, true humility is a product of being honest with self and accepting one's imperfections and facing
the consequences of one's erroneous/ill-advised decisions without reservation - leading one to abstain from judging others in the same fashion. This leads to true philanthropy and humanitarism.

The desire to humiliate someone else is a totally abhorrent and beastly thing to do--and it seems to me that the popular christian concept of humility is more accurately defined as seeking to humiliate others for the sake of self-piety. Which is, of course, thinly disguised hypocrisy.

There is a tremendous difference between forced/coerced submission and voluntary and willing surrender. Men seek the former and God desires the latter. (from my observations and experiences, that is)

even before the british/dutch /protestant invasion of the eastern seaboard , you
had frog jesuits to the north and spanish dominicans to the south.

In the south it was ok to enslave the natives to work the mines. They wern't christians.
although if they converted it was still ok if you paid the proper fee to the church.

Originally posted by queenannie38
There is a tremendous difference between forced/coerced submission and voluntary and willing surrender. Men seek the former and God desires the latter. (from my observations and experiences, that is)

I have to agree with you there, there is a difference between the two. But, while the motives may be different and the way you get to the point where you are humble is different I still have a problem with it. My problem with it is the entire concept of being humble.

I am not a humble person. I'm not arrogant by any means, I don't boast about myself or things I've done. But I don't feel that anyone has the right to make anyone else feel that they are not as good or are on a lower level. No one has a right to ask me to unquestioningly do as they ask. I ask a lot of questions. It's my nature. I never follow anything blindly and I'm anything but meek. Whether it's man or a particular god, I will question anything I don't agree with or don't understand. If my questions are answered to my satisfaction, then I may or may not do as asked.

Really, I suppose my main problem with being humble is the part of it that says "submissive respect" and "lower in station". While I admit that I do not know everything, that does not make anyone higher in "station" than me simply because they do. As for the submissive respect, I'm not the submissive type. If someone or something wants my respect, I have to have a reason for it. This is part of the reason why the Christian God and I had a falling out years back. I began questioning and could not find answers that made any sense, and in some cases found no answers at all.

The desire to humiliate someone else is a totally abhorrent and beastly thing to do--and it seems to me that the popular christian concept of humility is more accurately defined as seeking to humiliate others for the sake of self-piety. Which is, of course, thinly disguised hypocrisy.

I think that is a very good definition of it, and I totally agree. Reason number two I began questioning. There is more hypocrisy in the Christian religion than I care to be around or deal with.

even before the british/dutch /protestant invasion of the eastern seaboard ,you had frog jesuits to the north and spanish dominicans to the south.

You seem to be confused by those that act in the name of Christianity and Christians. Did you fail to see who Constantine was?


Let me simplifity things by adding confusion.
What if I explained to you that Indians were attacked in America because they threw all the tea in the Boston harbor?

Would you not say they looked like Indians but they were not?
When will you understand a wolf in sheeps clothes?

queenannie38, what did Chirst come to Earth for? Spirituality, teaching, parables, laws, principles of conduct, professorship, or pedagogy? If any of these apply, then us lower beings would be essentially forced to develop some kind of religion.

"Turn the other cheek." No true Christian exacts violence.

queenannie38, did you lose your Christian Faith? You do make excellent contributions in certain respects, especially regarding historical analysis. I am praying for you.

Originally posted by GreatTech
queenannie38, did you lose your Christian Faith? You do make excellent contributions in certain respects, especially regarding historical analysis. I am praying for you.

Thanks, GT ...
as to your inquiry--I am not a christian--never have been.

I am not the author of my faith, either, so unless God takes it away from me, it will remain intact.

Originally posted by queenannie38
I am not the author of my faith, either, so unless God takes it away from me, it will remain intact.

beautifully and eligently stated by a true person, with a fetish for words.


As for the rest of the reasoning and basis for this entire thread, i see too many assumptions made as to the will of GOD.


I highly doubt any contribution from any soul on this thread has the wisdom, the purity of spirit, the knowledge, and the empathy to tell me the intentionality of GOD. Humanity as a whole seemingly lacks the pre-requisites, apparently stemming from individual choice, and the burden and blessing of Free Will.

No correlation or parrellels between Christianity and Paganism?

Keep feeling free to exercise your GOD given right to pass judgement upon entire faiths and entire belief systems. Division is a tool of the anti-uniter.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Division is a tool of the anti-uniter.

Good words from my good friend!!

Christianity is an excellent religion for beginning world unity (Peace to the Infinite Power!!!). After all, Christianity is the most adhered to religion in the world.

Does anybody think they can outdo Christ? Personally, I do not think I or anyone can. Divinity is such a pure form of God's Infiniteness that I feel guilty and completely fail at any attempt to outdo Christ. I humbly resign to be a worshiper of Christ and the Trinity, and never a leader.