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Political Insensitivity

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posted on Jul, 15 2006 @ 04:29 PM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
As for the coffins from 9/11, if you read the news then you are aware that the families of the victims, gave President Bush their COMPLETE authorization to run those pictures.

Thanks for the clarification. Your stance is that what matters is not disrespect for the dead or using them for a political agenda, your stance is simply that what matters is authorization. So if it comes out that the democrats had permission, will it be okay with you? If the republicans didn't have permission for their waving the bloody 9/11 shirt, would you be making a similar rant thread against them right now and standing up for what's right? Or is it that only soldiers are deserving of respect, and everybody else is "just a civvie".


Maybe you do not understand the difference, but these people do.

www.soldiers-goodtogo.com...


Maybe you don't understand that there is no difference when it comes to using the dead for a bogus political agenda, authorized or not, but these people do:


dir.salon.com...
Enraged members of the 9/11 Widows' and Victims' Families Association vented against Bush's ads, calling them "disgraceful" and "hypocritical." While he used the flag-draped coffin, he refused to allow the press to photograph coffins of U.S. soldiers returned from Iraq.



weblog.theviewfromthecore.com...
But throughout the day his aides were scrambling to counter criticism that his first television commercials crassly politicized the tragedy of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

The criticism — from a firefighters union, relatives of victims and allies of Senator John Kerry — put the Bush campaign in an uncomfortable position at a time when it had hoped to begin defining the incumbent in contrast to his challenger.





Originally posted by semperfortis
The people that died on 9/11 are victims, the soldiers are not.

This is completely irrelevant. Using the dead for a bogus political agenda is wrong. Period.


Originally posted by semperfortis
If you don't get it, it is beyond me to help.

What an interesting attitude for an ATSer. Nobody asked for, or indeed, needs your help, because disagreeing with you is not "not getting it", it is simply disagreeing with you. I could say that you don't "get it" because you don't see it my way, but I wouldn't be so presumptuous. That's what's so great about ATS, I'm sure you get that.


I respect the service that you have done for your country, and I understand from your posts that your stance stems largely from emotional sentiments, whether you admit it or not, but your role as a former soldier does not give you moral superiority, nor the ability or the right to determine absolute right and wrong. This 'war' is bigger than the marine corps. And as it stands, many of the families of the 9/11 victims seem to disagree with your appraisal.




posted on Jul, 15 2006 @ 05:04 PM
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but your role as a former soldier does not give you moral superiority, nor the ability or the right to determine absolute right and wrong.


So voicing my OPINION is espousing a moral superiority????

When and where did that come from??

My Military service was mentioned as a effect as to my OPINION (You know, an opinion) as to what I PERCEIVED. You get that don't you?
You know, using a base analogy to establish a concurrent thought pattern in an expected audience.

Standard posting to an unknown audience of expected intellect.

Yea, I get it.
far too clearly..


Semper



posted on Jul, 15 2006 @ 05:13 PM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
I believe that my greatest friends are the ones that disagree with me.
They are the ones that are without a doubt the most interesting to talk too.
Semper


Well, with that in my mind, allow me to introduce myself as one of your "greatest friends"!!


I have to say, Semper, you do have the courage of your convictions and I truly respect that.
My view is that BOTH parties have changed so much and politicians are trying to stay in the middle so much, that it's hard to tell one party from another. I believe that the powers-that-be WANT us to be polarized, divided and hence, less forceful. Yes, I've been a lifelong Democrat, but my entire family were ultra-conservative, loyal Republicans. Yeah, Christmas Dinner is a real humdinger event


I remember when Barry Goldwater ran for president. Though I didn't agree with all his ideas, I did agree with most of them and would give my left arm for him to be president now because I think he was a fine person and fully believed in true freedom. OTOH, Clinton was never one of my favorite politicians. Put simpy, I will vote for the one who I think is the best person for the job, I try not to let party loyalty rule my voting decisions. In my view, I have yet to find an honest politician or anyone for that matter, who is a good candidate for President that I could get really excited about. In the end, both parties are gulty of not supporting our Constitution or protecting the People's interests. And that's why I don't see too much difference between the 2 parties, I don't even see any Democrat ideology in the Democrat party.

So, Semper, if you can help your party find a truly great candidate, I would vote for him or her.

Back to the topic, I can see why you are thinking the way you do about the coffins and I respect that, since you have direct experience with such. And while I respect your party loyalty, I don't think EITHER party deserves it.
It's nice to see someone who has reasoned, well-thought-out ideas, based on their life experiences so I respect you for that. You're the kind of person who can help me understand the other side, so I thank you.



posted on Jul, 15 2006 @ 05:29 PM
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Thank You my friend.

Posts like that make being here feel like being with family..

Semper



posted on Jul, 15 2006 @ 05:38 PM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
We have put up with the likes of Michael Moore and Moveon.org for long enough. They continue to use shock value, disrespect and the manipulation of the truth to further their goals and we continue to support them.

Shame on us!!

Semper



S. Does the disrespect and manipulation of the truth to further their goals also extend to the like of Rush, Coulter, ORilly, Savage, Hannity, and a myriad of local clones. If it is the conservative talkshow hosts purpose to divide the country it is succeeding. If it is to convince the fence sitters like me of their ideology; the hate and vitriol they mostly seem to extol has driven this once proud Republican away.
There is no big tent; and dissent and other ideas are not tolerated.



posted on Jul, 15 2006 @ 05:48 PM
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Whaaa

It is not exclusive to either side in my opinion.

Not a big Rush or Hannity fan either.

Savage, now I love him, he is just so ridiculous he is actually entertaining.


Semper



posted on Jul, 15 2006 @ 05:48 PM
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It is important to remmeber however that during the last Liberal take over that was bordering on Authoritarian under FDR was intollerant of idea that did not agree with thiers.

Whenever either side gains total control bad things can happen.

Its just important to remmember htat while the Right may be doing some things very wrong...the left has done almost the exact same in the past....its par to the course in a two party system

Semper have you tried Glenn beck hes pretty decent and not TOO far right

[edit on 15-7-2006 by Elsenorpompom]



posted on Jul, 15 2006 @ 06:03 PM
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Oh Yea!!!

Glen is on TV here each weeknight.

Excellent stuff and GREAT interviews.

Semper



posted on Jul, 16 2006 @ 12:10 AM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
Why not just go out and picket a funeral or two?


Wow, that was as low as they come. I'm real disappointed in you.

If you're gonna equate the anti-war portion with the despicable activites of Fred Phelps and his gang, then... well, I expected more from a Marine.



posted on Jul, 16 2006 @ 06:12 AM
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SMID,

You are 100% correct.

I apologize for that statement and please consider this a retraction.

Semper



posted on Jul, 16 2006 @ 06:27 AM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
So voicing my OPINION is espousing a moral superiority????

When and where did that come from??


From here:


Originally posted by semperfortis
...go a. and insult their sacrifice, throw whatever mud you want to at their memories.
[...]
Why not just go out and picket a funeral or two?
[...]
Sorry, but if you don't know the difference, you either were never in combat and lost a friend, never lost a loved one, ...or you just don't get it.
[...]
If you don't get it, it is beyond me to help.
[...]
President Bush their COMPLETE authorization to run those pictures.


Voicing your opinion is one thing. Stating that you are right because of your situation and that everyone who disagrees with you just "doesn't get it" is assuming moral superiority, as is making allusions that those who disagree with you would go out and picket funerals, as is assuming that no one else has ever lost a family member in combat. How dare you? You don't know anything about the lives and families of other people posting here.

And I notice you didn't answer any of my questions in regard to the actual topic, your stance, nor in regards to the families of the 9/11 victims who were outraged at the Republican 2004 campaign ads, you simply latched onto one side comment.

So are you big enough to give a little nod and admit that cheaply using the dead for any bogus political agenda is wrong, no matter who does it, and no matter the dead are, military or civilian? Or again, is it that civilian dead don't deserve respect, only soldiers?

[edit on 2006-7-16 by wecomeinpeace]



posted on Jul, 16 2006 @ 06:55 AM
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Wecome,

I have never been a civilian.

Not as of turning 20 and graduating college, realizing my path was a different road.

And no moral high ground. Just knowledge that coming off of that transport after Lebanon,. watching the coffins off loaded at Dover AFB, I know I would not want the service to my country to be so downplayed as to only show what happened to me. Show what I did, celebrate my service, those soldiers are not just civilian body's, they are heros. Knights in shining armor that went to a foriegn land and fought for this country. Whether the war is right or wrong, that is what and who they are, not dead bodies draped with flags. Not civilians in office buildings killed while typing a letter, they FOUGHT, stood up under fire, faced the enemy and died bravely.
So to me, there is a HUGE difference.

The civilians that died on 9/11 are victims. They never had the chance to choose their fate. Those Soldiers made the choice, the choice to fight so that so many others would not have too. They can never be victims, only heros.
Tremendous difference to me.

Semper



posted on Jul, 16 2006 @ 06:57 AM
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Semperfortis,

Hillary Clinton is the only one who can rescue us. Now that i have everyones attention
, i need to remind you that both parties work for the same devil. There is no difference, they all have the same agenda. If we are sitting around waiting for things to get better come the next election, i have sad news for all of us and youse.


The only ones who can try to fix this demon is US, as in you and me. That's why i have been ranting for a couple of days now. What are *WE* going to do about this nation?
How do *WE* handle the corruption, lies and evil?
That is the question. Is it too late? I dont think so. If Bush werent ushering us into the NWO or whatever they have up their sleeves, SOMEBODY else would be.
Unfortunately for him, he's the one in power at this moment (will it ever end) and he is the one all hatred is directed to.
What's next??? More of the same, UNLESS we take the bull by the horns- like maybe we should not vote in the next election. What a message that would send!
Hell, put whomever you want into power- you are going to, anyway.

I plan to NOT vote and i hope everyone i know doesnt and sends a clear message that we're onto them and no need for more charades.


Beat us, whip us, make us write bad checks.....whatever.....

At the same time, i call for peaceful protests all over the nation...steady...that should send a clear message too.
There are things we could do that we are not doing - Not just to protest "Bush", we need to take it a step further and protest the "system" which will continue once this puppet is long gone.



posted on Jul, 16 2006 @ 07:17 AM
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dg,
HILLARY!!!!!!!


Say it aint so!!!!

Seriously though, I fully appreciate your stance, but I am not ready to give up quite yet. I still believe that change comes from the inside and I plan on working for that change as hard as I can between now and 2008.

I will admit that if my choice is Hillary or McCain, I might write in Mickey.

Semper



posted on Jul, 16 2006 @ 07:26 AM
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Think about it, brother, you're saying that parading corpses around to win an election is fine and dandy as long as the dead were victims and not willing combatants. You're saying that victims don't deserve any respect in death. I understand your stance in regards to showing the coffins of soldiers, but what is fatally crippling your argument is your glaring, unabashed double standard.

Furthermore, many that died on 9/11 were police officers and firefighters who fought bravely in their duty protecting others and died as a result, who went into WTC1 knowing full well that WTC2 had just collapsed. Don't you know that? Were they victims, or heroes? What about the "letter typers" who chose to stay behind to help the unfit, the slow, and the weak to evacuate the buildings and died in the collapses? Were they victims or heroes? What's your stance on them?

Personally I think highlighting soldiers' deaths to remind people that this war was based on lies from day one is justifiable. It should, however, be done more tastefully and in other ways than showing coffins. But this does not mean that I think the soldiers were victims, nor does it mean I don't admire their sacrifice. The soldiers believe the cause is true, and that makes their sacrifice noble. My belief that the cause is a false one does not change that one bit.

I appreciate the clarification and I understand where you're coming from to an extent. I don't agree with it, but I understand it. Agree to disagree.



posted on Jul, 16 2006 @ 08:18 AM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
SMID,

You are 100% correct.

I apologize for that statement and please consider this a retraction.

Semper


Roger that.

Looks like once a Marine, always a Marine.



posted on Jul, 16 2006 @ 08:28 AM
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Semper,

Did i ever tell you i live with a lifetime Marine? Yup. Does everything but salute the flag everyday. He (thinks) he's boss, sargeant of the house....


I respect what he did and i respect you too. Somedays i'd like to courtmarshall him.

Off topic, just a little bit of info.



posted on Jul, 16 2006 @ 09:30 AM
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DJ, by not voting you'll be playing right into their hands--making it so much easier, and that's why he appreciates you.

In my view Insenitivities lead to intolerance. Or should I say requires Intolerance? And that is hardly what Liberty is about. Sure, you may be free to be intolerant. But those who chose to be so also chose a downward spiral that won't lead to any good, believe you that.

If they're looking for enlightment, it's the long way around.



posted on Jul, 16 2006 @ 09:52 AM
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Psyops, i know what you mean, but at the same time it lets "them" know that "We" know its not a democracy anymore. Instead of voting, everyone should go out and demonstrate- and let them know we want our country back. Legal legit elections and all.
Heck, it would send a message- yes. Sure, its not the best thing to do and its not conventional, but SOMEBODY has to let these idiots know that we know they will CHOSE WHOMEVER THEY WANT ANYWAY.
I still think on election day, demonstrations showing that we've had it, along with extremely low turnout at the polls, might send a tiny message.

Democrats- 550 votes nationwide
Republicans- 551 votes nationwide

How pathetic! They stick it to us, time to reciprocate. It doesnt matter who wins, anyway.



posted on Jul, 16 2006 @ 11:05 AM
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Originally posted by psyopswatcher
DJ, by not voting you'll be playing right into their hands--making it so much easier, and that's why he appreciates you.

In my view Insenitivities lead to intolerance. Or should I say requires Intolerance? And that is hardly what Liberty is about. Sure, you may be free to be intolerant. But those who chose to be so also chose a downward spiral that won't lead to any good, believe you that.

If they're looking for enlightment, it's the long way around.


How is it that you know why I appreciate DG???

Man!! It's difficult to not lose those points sometimes.

I appreciate DG because of her mind and ability to clearly see an issue.

Semper




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