Will we ever understand?

Originally posted by semperfortis
YES I would die for my country!!!!
A thousand times over. If I would not, I would not still be getting in my uniform each and everyday. (Well not today)

This is what one of the higher ups thinks of those that die for their country:

“Military men are just dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy.” -

Henry Kissinger

en.wikiquote.org...

Originally posted by Techsnow
Well, you must be delusional because every Muslim every day prays to Mecca every day.

They don't pray TO Mecca, they face towards Mecca to pray to Allah.

If you are Muslim wake up and realise you worship a meteorite every day.

This is not true. The stone is a symbol, much as the statues in the Catholic religion represent something.

If you are going to make an extrordinary claim such that Muslims worship a stone, that calls for extrordinary evidence. Do you have any evidence to back up your assertion?

Many Muslims regard the Stone as 'just a stone'. When Umar ibn al-Khattab, the second Caliph, came to kiss the stone, he said, in front of all assembled: "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither harm anyone nor benefit anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Messenger kissing you, I would not have kissed you."[1] Many Muslims follow Umar: they pay their respects to the Black Stone in a spirit of trust in Muhammad, not with any belief in the Black Stone itself.

Black Stone

Perhaps Bandit, that is what I am.

Only time will tell.

Yet I can not run from who I am, I have pride and a conscious that keeps me going every day to do my dumb, stupid animal like duty.

Thanks for your opinion, it is nice to know where people stand.

Semper

Muslims pray toward Mecca and the revere the Kibala, they do not worship either, they worship Allah, which in Arabic means God...Islam, like Judaism is a strict monotheism, and both religions by the way are highly critical of Christianity because it divides God into the Father, Son and Holy Ghost and (Catholicism and Greek orthodox anyway) revere relics of saints and icons which strikes them as idoltry.

You are not a dumb animal Semper or i would not talk to you. Proof of that is that you try and reason your way around an issue....your conservatism is not carved in stone like some.

Just kind of pensive tonight Grover.

Thanks for the boost though.

Semper

Originally posted by semperfortis
Perhaps Bandit, that is what I am.

Only time will tell.

Yet I can not run from who I am, I have pride and a conscious that keeps me going every day to do my dumb, stupid animal like duty.

Thanks for your opinion, it is nice to know where people stand.

Don't misunderstand me. I am not calling you that. But that's what Kissinger is calling any military person. To him, and the rest of the scum (I mean people) he is involved in, the average person is dirt and should be stepped on and used as they wish.

I'll say it now. And I'll also say that I can't prove it either.

IMO it's the Rothschilds, Rockefellers, those from the Bilderberg meetings (including my queen!) and the others like them that are designing this war and the outcome. I can't prove it, but I'm 99% sure of this.

[edit on 16-7-2006 by TheBandit795]

Thanks Bandit

I can not argue or fault your logic either. It does appear at times as if much of what is going on is orchestrated.

I am not familiar enough with the subject though to formulate a coherent response.

It was on Coast 2 Coast the other night and I have it Pocasted, so I will listen and learn.

Semper

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
................
If you are going to make an extrordinary claim such that Muslims worship a stone, that calls for extrordinary evidence. Do you have any evidence to back up your assertion?
..............

Yes, and perhaps you should start by presenting evidence that in the United States children in the 6th grade are being taugh to die for their country... you also have to present extraordinary evidence to corroborate your claim that there is no difference between indoctrinating children into becoming suicide bombers, and teaching children to respect the military....

Perhaps people should also stop teaching children to respect their elders...since it is the same as teaching children to idolize martyrs, suicide bombers, and teaching them to become a suicide bomber....

[edit on 17-7-2006 by Muaddib]

Ignorance and Intorlerance created the situation. Stupidity is what is fueling it!!!!

History of the Black Stone

Fact is the Black Stone is the most venerated object for Muslims... they pray in the direction of the Black Stone every day, which is also Mecca.. they pray towards Mecca and Mecca holds the Black Stone.. is anyone denying this?

Because if you do deny that Muslims worship the Black Stone then remember that the Black Stone is set on the outside of one corner of the structure and is solemnly kissed by all pilgrims who can gain access to it. So people travel miles so they can kiss the Black Stone... is this not worship?

Now, we all know the Muslims worship the Black Stone but what is this stone???

Supposedly the Black Stone was given to Ishmael by the angel Gabriel.
The only other option is the Black Stone was some meteorite that fell from the sky.

Unless the angel Gabriel comes down to Earth and tells everyone that he gave the stone to Ishmael I will believe the latter...

THE BLACK STONE IS A METEORITE THAT ALL THE MUSLIMS WORSHIP! WAKE UP!

[edit on 17-7-2006 by Techsnow]

You're not worth arguing with techsnow...calling others ignorant fools when it is you who obviously does not know what you're talking about. Save the religious commentary for those who have some understanding of the matter and stop spouting foolishness. If you do not me or anyone else who has reputed your assertions try www.pantheon.org or www.religionfacts.com, do some research on the matters and deny your own bloody ignorance.

Originally posted by grover
You're not worth arguing with techsnow...calling others ignorant fools when it is you who obviously does not know what you're talking about. Save the religious commentary for those who have some understanding of the matter and stop spouting foolishness. If you do not me or anyone else who has reputed your assertions try www.pantheon.org or www.religionfacts.com, do some research on the matters and deny your own bloody ignorance.

Groover your twisting my words, I never called anyone an ignorant fool although you have now called me ignorant for holding to my own belief.

Yes, I have stated that I believe the Muslims worship the black stone which I believe is a meteorite.. that is my belief and there is no need for your hostility.

If you don't agree with my beleif then proove me wrong.. proove me an infidel..

Originally posted by Techsnow

Originally posted by iqonx

Originally posted by Techsnow

Not only are you indenial your also ignorant of your own beliefs.. typical religious extermist fool IMO.

That is what I am talking about. I am not Muslim and I find such an attitude extremely rude and offensive. I may disagree with someone politically BUT I never question or ridicule their approach to God even if I personally find it distasteful or absurd....Who am I to judge anothers path to the spiritual?

This is from Wikipedia:

According to Islamic tradition, God ordained a place of worship on Earth to reflect the house in heaven called al-Baytu l-Maˤmur (Arabic: البيت المعمور ). Muslims believe that Adam was the first to build such a place of worship.

According to the Qur'an, the Kaaba was built by Ibrahim (Abraham) and his son Ismail (Ishmael. This is not accepted by non-Muslims, but Western academics do believe that Mecca may have had a long history as a center of worship.

At the time of Muhammad, his tribe, the Quraysh, was in charge of the Kaaba, which was at that time a shrine to numerous Arabian tribal gods. Desert tribesmen, the Bedouin, and inhabitants of other cities would join the annual pilgrimage, to worship and to trade. Caravan-raiding, common during the rest of the year, was suspended during the pilgrimage; this was a good time, then, for travel and trade.

Muhammad, preaching the doctrine of monotheism and the promise of the Day of Judgment, faced mounting opposition in the city of Mecca. The Quraysh persecuted and harassed him continuously, and he and his followers eventually migrated to Medina in 622 CE. After this pivotal migration, or Hijra, the Muslim community became a political and military force. In 630 CE, Muhammad and his followers returned to Mecca as conquerors and the Kaaba was re-dedicated as an Islamic house of worship. Henceforth, the annual pilgrimage was to be a Muslim rite, the Hajj.

The Qibla, for any point of reference on the Earth, is the direction to the Kaaba. In Muslim religious practice, supplicants must face this direction at prayer. Some non-Muslims believe that Muslims worship the Kaaba; Muslims themselves say that the Kaaba is simply a focal point for prayer.

There are various opinions as to the status and meaning of the Black Stone.

Many Muslims regard the Stone as 'just a stone'. When Umar ibn al-Khattab, the second Caliph, came to kiss the stone, he said, in front of all assembled: "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither harm anyone nor benefit anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Messenger kissing you, I would not have kissed you."[1] Many Muslims follow Umar: they pay their respects to the Black Stone in a spirit of trust in Muhammad, not with any belief in the Black Stone itself.

Some say that the stone is best considered as a 'marker', useful in keeping count of the ritual circumambulations one has performed (tawaf).

Other Muslims are more willing to believe that the Stone itself has some supernatural powers. They believe that it fell from the sky during the time of Adam and Eve, and that it has the power to cleanse worshippers of their sins by absorbing them into itself. They say that the Black Stone was once a pure and dazzling white; it has turned black because of the sins it has absorbed over the years.

Still others believe that the stone can only erase the believer's minor sins. On the Day of Judgement, the Stone will testify before God (Allah) in favor of those who kissed it.

These last could perhaps be regarded as folk beliefs, not necessarily shared by all Muslims.

Originally posted by Muaddib
you also have to present extraordinary evidence to corroborate your claim that there is no difference between indoctrinating children into becoming suicide bombers, and teaching children to respect the military....

That's one of the problems with discussing things with you, Mauddib. You make things up. I never said there wasn't a difference. I asked you what the difference was. I have asked you several times to explain specifically what the difference was. I have said there are similarities and you refuse to acknowledge that, but I haven't said there is no difference, and therefore have nothing to prove.

Semper explained what the difference is to him. That's why he's such a good debater. That's why, even though we disagree, I have a huge amount of respect for Semper and I enjoy having discussions with him. That's why he's worth arguing with. He doesn't twist people's words or put words into people's mouths in some kind of juvenile attempt to make others wrong.

Your best defense is to twist my words in an effort to make it look like I said something I didn't so you can come out feeling that you're right and I'm wrong. I cannot and will not defend something I didn't say. It's a waste of my time.

I am going to jump back to the original topic of this thread.

Here is where I see a difference between sending a son/daughter off in the US military compared to sending a child with a grenade or a bomb strapped to them into a group of enemy soldiers.

First off, there SHOULD be rules of engagement set forth for war, even though in this case there is not. I understand that many people firmly believe in total war, but I am one that does not. Strapping a bomb to your chest, not even taking into account age nor "life experience" is much more cowardly than engaging in battle. And when discussing WWII, with the japanese "strapping planes to themselves" and suicide diving, well, in my eyes, they are no different.

There are reasons why you must be 18 years old to join the army. It is understood that at 18 years of age, you are conscious enough to make your own decisions. You are not forced to go into the military, you choose to. Whereas, if you are a child, you pretty much have decisions made for you by your parents. If my parents asked me to strap a bomb to myself and run into a crowd of people when I am 24, I laugh nervously in their faces. Yet, at the ages of 6, 7, and 8, I prolly would have carried it out. And you know what, if they think it is for the greater good to suicide bomb a bunch of soldiers, then why the hell don't they do it themselves and spare the lives of their children???!?!?! It is almost as if they have absolutely no value for life. I just cannot sympathize with that kind of thinking, nor do I wish to try to understand it.

I fail to see the direct correlation between volunteering for the military, where it is not suicide, and strapping bombs to yourself which obviously is suicide.

Originally posted by semperfortis
Perhaps it is true Grover,

That we could not possibly completely appreciate the wonders, without the contrasting evils.

Semper

Great quote Semper.

I just read this, and I would love to refer you to a book by Neale Donald Walsch, a very inspiring writing that bases much theology on that exact principle. I am not trying to spread any religious propaganda, but if you truly believe in that sentence, I would definitely recommend Conversations with God, Books I and II (haven't read the 3rd one yet.)

Originally posted by Mouth
I am going to jump back to the original topic of this thread.

There are reasons why you must be 18 years old to join the army. It is understood that at 18 years of age, you are conscious enough to make your own decisions. You are not forced to go into the military, you choose to.

I don't know how old you are Mouth but I am old enough to have worried about whether I was going to be drafted or not. those of us who graduated high school in 74 were really backed up against the wall. We saw kids the year or two before us getting drafted and going off to war, to kill, be maimed and to die, and we already knew we would be the last to go if it came down to it, but that the kids behind us a year were safe. I was in one of the very last drafts and when my number came up, I enlisted in the Coast Guard. I had no problem serving my country, but not as cannon fodder in Vietnam, though I probably wouldn't go. If I was going to serve I wanted to be something that had a positive mission besides prepping to kill, preparing to die. You can call that cowardly if you like, I really don't give a damned, I was following my principles which adhores violence and prefers to serve in a positive life affirming capacity. I still follow those principles.

The people who suicide bomb and encourage others to do so, profoundly misunderstand the nature of their own faith.

Religion is what happens when people realize how difficult it is to follow in the teacher's footsteps.

Originally posted by grover

I don't know how old you are Mouth but I am old enough to have worried about whether I was going to be drafted or not.

I stated in my last post that I am 24.

those of us who graduated high school in 74 were really backed up against the wall. We saw kids the year or two before us getting drafted and going off to war, to kill, be maimed and to die, and we already knew we would be the last to go if it came down to it, but that the kids behind us a year were safe.

It was trying times for young men then. I know this, my father tells me stories from that time. He was a navigator for a C-130 in vietnam.

I was in one of the very last drafts and when my number came up, I enlisted in the Coast Guard. I had no problem serving my country, but not as cannon fodder in Vietnam, though I probably wouldn't go. If I was going to serve I wanted to be something that had a positive mission besides prepping to kill, preparing to die. You can call that cowardly if you like, I really don't give a damned, I was following my principles which adhores violence and prefers to serve in a positive life affirming capacity. I still follow those principles.

I don't call that cowardly, I call that intelligence. I was calling suicide bombing cowardly.

The people who suicide bomb and encourage others to do so, profoundly misunderstand the nature of their own faith.

Agreed.

Religion is what happens when people realize how difficult it is to follow in the teacher's footsteps.

Can you elaborate on this?

[edit on 17/7/06 by Mouth]