Will we ever understand?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by semperfortis
And BH, Yes to me and most everyone I know, there is a BIG difference.

And that's what I'm asking... What is the difference? It's a real question, but the only answer I'm getting is "There's a big difference". Well, what is it?

I know you think there's a difference. All I'm asking is to explain that difference to me.

For me it is this.

This is my country, these are my people, my family, my friends...my people. No matter how much some may want it, there is no one world and we are decades if ever away from any such thing, so where do we place our loyalties? In a global community? Or with our own country men and women?

If I strap a bomb on and go out and kill the enemy, then I have done a good thing, because it is the goal of any war to kill the enemy until they stop killing you. Like it? Not like it? Doesn't matter or change the facts as they exist today. I am a soldier, it is my duty to kill the enemy.

Now if I strap a bomb on and go out and kill my own people to state a political objective, then I am either a fool, an idiot or a child.

So here is what we have. Grown men that are strapping bombs on children why? Because they are too cowardly to go out and fight like men? That would be my guess. Now they apparently have no regard for their own people, because they are killing them far more than they are killing us. Again, cowards.

If you were embroiled in a war, any war, not just this one. There comes a time where you have to make a choice, take a stand, pick a side. War exists, I know that some are so vehemently opposed to the war that they would never fight. That is fine, that is why there are men and women like me. That will fight so that others never have to.
So you pick a side. Do you kill your own people with bombs strapped to your childrens's backs? To what purpose? To strike terror and cause the American people back home to be shocked and say "Hey look at that, that is horrible, we have to get out," thus playing right into their hands.

So that is the difference to me. At present they are the enemy, we kill the enemy, they should be trying to kill us, not sending their children out to kill their own country men and women. Again, like it, not like it, doesn't really matter, it is what it is.

So there is a difference to me.

Semper

Continued..

Pak kids imbibe lessons on jihad

NEW DELHI: It is not just in seminaries, jihad and shahadat (martyrdom) are keywords in the curriculum of primary schools in Pakistan and the Education Ministry endorses the importance of these words, a media report said.

"The official Curriculum Document, Primary Education, Class I-V specifically prescribes 'simple stories to urge jihad '. Under Activity 4, the specific prescription for three and eight-year-old Pakistanis is: said in an article.

The article, entitled 'An Endangered Species: Who is going to save the moderate Pakistanis', says the National Curriculum of the Ministry for social studies for Classes I-V "formally endorses the following 'learning outcome': Recognise the importance of jihad in every sphere of life."

Under the heading 'Evaluation', "the officially certified direction to teachers and textbook writers is: 'to judge their spirits while making speeches on jihad, Muslim history and culture," while the 'affective objective' is 'Concepts of Ideology of Pakistan, Muslim Ummah and Jihad'.

Quoting Pakistan's Economic Survey 2003-04, the weekly said there were 17.4 million children who were attending primary schools, while about three million study in the 20,000 madrassas which churn out 40,000 graduates each year.

timesofindia.indiatimes.com...

In the following link you will find a couple of videos, watch them and see what is being taught to Muslim children by radical Muslims.

www.littlegreenfootballs.com...

A year back i presented other videos where little kids were taugh to be martyrs, this has been ongoing for decades, and this is the reason why there are new terrorists around the world.

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
................
You must quake in your boots each time a muslim school kid walks by you.
"IN THE BELIEF"...wow.
People like you are taking the words FREE and The BRAVE out of the meaning of America.

No...in fact I have Iranian and Iraqi friends who work for the same company i work for.... I am not talking about "regular Muslim kids"...or "moderate Muslims"... i am talking about radical/extremist Muslims.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

And that's what I'm asking... What is the difference? It's a real question, but the only answer I'm getting is "There's a big difference". Well, what is it?

I know you think there's a difference. All I'm asking is to explain that difference to me.

I already explained what I meant... read my responses again because you appear either not to have read them, or you do not want to accept my explanation.... and again you have not provided proof to back your own argument that you apparently believe that kids in the 6th grade in normal U.S. schools are being taught that it is good to die for one's country....

Teaching children to respect the military is not the same as "indoctrinating them to be suicide bombers"......


If i follow your line of logic then "teaching children to respect their elders" is the same as "teaching children to respect martyrs, and that the greatest deed is to become a martyr killing as many infidels as possible".....

[edit on 16-7-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
..........
People like you are taking the words FREE and The BRAVE out of the meaning of America.

No, it is people like you who are replacing the words "FREE and BRAVE" with "POLITICAL CORREDNESS"....and even replace them with "ANARCHY and STUPIDITY"....

[edit on 16-7-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by semperfortis
So that is the difference to me. At present they are the enemy, we kill the enemy, they should be trying to kill us, not sending their children out to kill their own country men and women. Again, like it, not like it, doesn't really matter, it is what it is.

So there is a difference to me.

Semper

I tell you what Mr semper. Tell the Israelis to allow the Palestinians to arm EQUALLY and lets see if your ridicoulous belief holds water and if they would continue to do suicide bombings or involve their kids. They'd be dropping bombs from 20,000 feet just like any other heroic Israeli IAF does to them. Give them some tanks, some real guided missles. Hey I bet they can even have gas masks and Bomb shelters like every good Israeli citizen can have. Lets see what happens to a Palestinian if he even thinks about trying to dig a bomb shelter under his house. I would REALLY love to see you in the shoes of a Palestinian...you'd probably crap your pants.

Originally posted by Muaddib
you have not provided proof to back your own argument that you apparently believe that kids in the 6th grade in normal U.S. schools are being taught that it is good to die for one's country....

Mauddib, have you honestly missed the whole discussion about recruiters in schools?

Concerns raised over school privacy notice

Sybil Arum's eighth-grade granddaughter came home this week worried that she was on the verge of being drafted by the military and sent off to war.

The reason for her fear was the Department of Education's annual privacy notice, which says contact information for secondary students as young as sixth-graders may be released to military recruiters unless the student, parent or legal guardian requests otherwise.

Army Pitch in Pre-Teen Magazine

What began as an attempt to educate middle-school students about the military has set off a string of complaints from parents and teachers that new learning materials designed by a New Hampshire publisher for 9- to 14-year-olds amount to little more than an early recruiting pitch for the Army.

Inner City Struggle in LA

Even students in the sixth grade are being trained to join the military, to be little soldiers. In high school you see it more; JROTC has its own buildings and its own facilities in our school district. At Roosevelt High School it has an underground shooting range.

At the beginning of every year, since our schools are so over-crowded, there’s not enough room to have everyone enroll in P.E. So the JROTC recruiters go into the P.E. classrooms and they outreach to everyone, saying, “Instead of doing P.E. you could join JROTC and it’ll be honorable, it’ll be considered as an extra activity, and it looks good on college applications.” They do this massive recruitment. Students don’t see other clubs going around, saying, “join this club to prepare for college.” All they see is JROTC.

Thank you, Semper for explaining the difference you see. To me, people are people. Killing an Iraqi citizen is the exact same thing to me as killing you or my neighbor or my brother. Killing is killing. As long as we use the excuse and believe the dogma of "it's 'us' against 'them'", I believe we've sunk to their level.

So tell us Benevolent...where does it say in those links you gave that 6th graders are being taught to die for the country?....

You know, i would guess you would also think that the "boyscouts' and "girlscouts" are also "paramilitary units teaching children to die for their country".....

[edit on 16-7-2006 by Muaddib]

And you would not be wrong BH.

Yet it is the world that we live in, You nor I made it this way, yet as I said earlier; it is what it is.

Killing is wrong, admittedly, yet what course has a man to take when confronted with wrongs done by those that perpetrate violence as their only tool?

Only when all are committed to laying down weapons and committed to peaceful means to violent actions, can we rest.
As the world stands today, this very moment, there must be those ready, even willing to commit violence in the name of peace. An oxymoron? Perhaps, still valid no less.

Your stance, your passion for peace is to be admired. There are however only small pockets in this world where that sentiment may be lived out. Unfortunately ours is not such a place.

Perhaps it is that I have lived a life of violence for so long that I know of nothing else. Yet I pray for peace, maybe more than most. A time when there will be no need for men like me, when we are all of one mind and harmony rules the day.

Sadly I do not see that in my lifetime.

There are far too many that do not care about your peaceful world, they have no regard for you at all. These people will do violence against you unless there are consequences to their actions. Those consequences come from men willing to do violence.

Yes, BH I would like one day to see a world devoid of violence and war.

Semper

There is no arguing with Muaddib BH...he is an either/or kinda guy....such logic is seriously flawed but of course you can't tell him that.

I will say it again for clarity's sake... Muaddib assumes that all the worst extremes in Islam are universal within it and that is so far from the truth it simply isn't funny, but them he is also seriously prejudiced against Muslims as any casual examination of his posts and threads would show, and it is a real pity.

The world is so very rich and complex and varied it is like a many faceted gem of great price, flaws and all.

"It is just breathtaking just to be here" Ranier Marie Rilke

Perhaps it is true Grover,

That we could not possibly completely appreciate the wonders, without the contrasting evils.

Semper

that is a wise statement semper.

I know what I feel and believe to be wrong and I would like to think it is universal but I also know better...I have heard funnymentalist rail against attitudes such as mine and calling it relativistic but in all reality it isn't...it is an acceptance that the complexness of the human mind and conciousness.

In all reality all that we do and call culture, civilization or even morality and religion...is a form of masque or pavane....in light of the cosmic winds that blow between our very atoms and cells it all really doesn't matter that much. The Japanese had a notion of this...instead of saying father is dead, they would say father is playing at death....

But then after a couple of beers I am prone to wander off into metaphysics so I had best shut up.

Originally posted by semperfortis
Your stance, your passion for peace is to be admired. There are however only small pockets in this world where that sentiment may be lived out. Unfortunately ours is not such a place.

Thanks for understanding, Semper. Just to be absolutely clear, I am not a pacifist, nor a peacenik. I believe, as you have pointed out, that in the imperfect world in which we live, war is a necessary evil. I just don't happen to think this particular war was or is at all necessary.

Originally posted by grover
There is no arguing with Muaddib BH...

I know this, and you'd think I'd learn my lesson... but alas...

Hey BH just do what I did...offend his so much he changed his settings to ignore me. Life on here has become so much simpler

Come on BH!!!!

I only say "Peacenik" when I am emotional. I don't mean any harm.

Semper

Originally posted by The PieMaN
Ok so a people not even indigenous to the Mideast you can relate to? Good luck in your endeavour to understand the Middle Eastern mindset from the minds of Europeans.
I don't think I could have made it any plainer

Man walks into crowd with bomb strapped to body

Man walks into plane and straps plane to body with 100x the explosives and flies over crowd.

Difference?

Yes
Man in crowd:
Typically young easily influenced by others. Works solitary. Bare minimum of training necessary for the job. Expendable. Targets place to cause maximum civilian loss. Goes into said target knowing full well he will die.

Pilot:
Veteran of armed forces, probably near best of his peers. Extensive training, with airgroup in preparation for mission. Targets objective, not looking to maximize civilian casualties. Professional, knows full well the risk of mission, accepts risk, completes mission. Still alive because is wasn't a suicide mission, otherwise he would have just crashed his plane into the reactor.

Originally posted by Grover
One last thing....democracy cannot be imposed by force of arms, nor can cultural change.

Not to want to say that it is the first or best way, but didn't the U.S. basically do that with Japan after WWII? Just mentioning that because absolutes, never are.

Originally posted by semperfortis
Come on BH!!!!

I only say "Peacenik" when I am emotional. I don't mean any harm.

Semper

Oh, I know. I wasn't at all upset or offended, I was just being as clear as I could. Peacenik was my word totally (because I've used it a time or two!)

You are right about Japan but also thanks to their culture and deep respect for authority we were able to do it...it also helped that they unconditionally surrendered and I am sure the shock of having two cities reduced to radioactive dust helped alot. I actually was thinking of japan when I wrote that and was trying to account for our success there. We also took control in a way we never did in Iraq thanks to boneheaded planning.

Originally posted by iqonx

Originally posted by Techsnow

Well there we have it. A million + people in the world that pray to a meteorite and try to destroy every religion that isn't theirs. Do you really want this religion to take over the world? I sure would like to see them deal with some ET infidels.

Once again Muslims do not pray to a meteorite or to mecca.

But pray towards Mecca which is the main mosque in the world.

Please stop spreading lies.

Well, you must be delusional because every Muslim every day prays to Mecca every day. yes Mecca is the main mosque in the MUSLIM WORLD... but Mecca also holds the black stone which is the Muslim center of worship. I don't understand how you can dare claim I am spreadking lies because this is fact. If you are Muslim wake up and realise you worship a meteorite every day. Please tell me what is wrong with you!? Not only are you indenial your also ignorant of your own beliefs.. typical religious extermist fool IMO.