The FED is a serious scam. When is something going to be done about it?

Dae's theory proposes that these patterns, boom-recession-depression-recovery, is nothing but the ouput of a well oiled system of robbery and fraud. The data produced over the years have told us nothing of cycles, only the behaviour of the Central Banks. Men have noticed the pattern in the sand but not the snake that makes it.

Dae...I just want to say that I think you've made some great additions to this thread and am going to give you a WATS as a result. I agree whole-heartedly with you that boom-recession-depression-recovery is nothing but BS! If the banks make the money out of thin air...then there should always be a BOOM...no? Purposely causing recessions and depressions does one thing for the FED and that is HELP IT MAKE MORE MONEY!!

You are right again that it is all ROBBERY AND FRAUD!! And sadly, it is robbery and fraud that MOST Americans have accepted as a fact of life...or they choose to be in denial of it.....

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Dae...I just want to say that I think you've made some great additions to this thread and am going to give you a WATS as a result.

thanks EB

And sadly, it is robbery and fraud that MOST Americans have accepted as a fact of life...or they choose to be in denial of it.....

The world EB, the world! This is global babeh!

Originally posted by derdy
I don't agree with the argument that inflation is caused through wage increases... let's say minimum wage is raised... then all those employers... either absorb that rise in cost for labor or pass that on to the consumer. In the event it is passed on... that doesn't reflect a decrease in the buying power of the dollar but rather, an increase in the value of the service or the goods provided.

This was discussed before, but let's look at it again, in your terms. The increase in the price of goods or services is passed on to the consumer as a rise in price. It is not an increase in the value of the good or service, because the value to the consumer is exactly the same as before; he's just forced to pay a higher price for it, so that value is stated in a higher number of smaller units (pounds, dollars or whatever). This is a pretty good description of inflation -- an increase in the price of a good based on a diminution in the value of money.

I also don't agree that an increase in gold... which... would create more money to represent that gold causes inflation. Suppose your country comes across another $100,000 in gold and that paper money is evenly distributed. That new gold does not decrease the buying power of your paper money, because something that was $1 before is now $2. The price of an item or service would remain in proportion to the amount of money in an economy, given that it based upon something of value.

Same misunderstanding as above. Twice as much gold, so twice as much money. Twice as much money means everything costs twice as much to produce and, with a proportionate profit margin slapped on top, becomes twice as expensive in terms of its numerical currency value. And what does that mean? It means your $1 buys you half as much as it did before. That's inflation.

In real life, the situation is much more complicated than this. If the amount of available gold (or anything else in the market) increases, then, given no increase in demand, the price of gold will fall. When this happens, the value of the currency (which is pegged to the gold) falls with it. Inflation again.

Also, your scenario assumes that the extra money will be distributed evenly through the economy. It will not. Capitalism doesn't work like that. The availability of extra money doesn't automatically mean everybody gets more -- unless, of course, wages rise in proportion. Until they do, workers will find their wages buy half as much as they did before -- inflation again. And when they win wage increases from their bosses, why, that'll send the price of goods up again, and cause the currency to fall even further in value. Leading to... guess what.

Further, suggesting that it's best to put the job of printing money in the hands of a private entity is a good idea, because a gov't with that responsibility would cause hyperinflation, is silly. Let's face it, inflation IS rising... Citing an African nation (i forgot who you mentioned Astyanax) as an example is ludicrous...

Three things to say in response:

1/ I didn't say it should be in the hands of a private entity, merely one that is free from interference by governments. Many if not most currency boards (ie central banks) in rich democracies are entities of this kind. But if a private company, suitably restricted and regulated, can be persuaded to do it, why ever not?

2/ If you think inflation is a problem now, you are evidently too young to remember the Seventies, when inflation in most parts of the world (including Europe, the USA and the UK) was far higher than it is today and frequently reached double figures. That episode, which lasted a decade or so in most countries, was triggered by the 1973 oil shock. Since that time, central bankers have got much better at controlling inflation, which is why the current, exorbitant price of oil has caused so much less inflation. Current levels of inflation in the rich world are quite low and not really a problem... yet. Besides, a certain level of inflation is good for economies, since it helps to keep down unemployment.

3/ I'm sorry you think Zimbabwe (the country I mentioned) is a ludicrous example. Perhaps you've forgotten that Zimbabwe was a British colony from 1890 to 1965, after which it was the white-run 'rebel state' of Rhodesia until 1979. It had -- until very, very recently -- a fully developed and elaborated modern economy, legislative process, legal system and so forth. It was never a 'third world' country, and never a poor country, till Robert Mugabe went ga-ga in his old age and started sowing ruin left and right. It even had proper economists an' all.

Originally posted by Dae
OK, Economic Cycles, lets go there...

I Google this phrase and Im not surprised at what I find. Theories upon theories are raining down on me! This page has about 10 different theories to describe 'economic cycles', and within some of these theories they tell us that the economic cycle may not exsist...

Bravo! If you haven't studied economics before, you're certainly doing so now. The links you're posting tell me you've been reading up on the real thing. That should do more than I ever could to convince you that the workings of modern economies are not merely the outcome of a conspiracy and that things are not as bad as you think they are (and not nearly as bad as Excitable Boy believes!)

That's not to say that everything in the garden is lovely. Long ago, Adam Smith, widely regarded as the father of capitalism, warned that 'people of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices...' This is still as true as it ever was. The two hundred years that have passed since Smith wrote those words have seen the rapacities of unfettered capitalism brought under some degree of control through legislation and regulation, but that doesn't mean smart businessmen (and bankers) can't play the system to their own advantage. And why shouldn't they? Everyone has a right to use his own skills and talents to his own profit -- at least, that's what liberal democrats believe, and I'm one.

Anyway, back to business cycles:

It would seem economic cycles may not exist, and for you to talk about them with such certainty is alarming. You then go onto describe how if these economic cycles are left to their own devices it will be mayhem and disaster for all... Where are your sources for making claims like these?

Sources for what? The statement that economic cycles exist? That is hardly in doubt -- you can establish their existence with a cursory glance at history. The fact that economists disagree on what they are, how they are caused and how long they last doesn't affect the bald facts of boom and bust, recession and recovery. You say these cycles are caused by clever, manipulative men. I reply that if so, these men must be very clever indeed, since, by your own account, economists (who are also very clever -- some of them win Nobel Prizes an' all) can't seem to get a solid grip on the causes and dynamics of economic cycles. This doesn't surprise me (economies are unbelievably complex, open-ended systems that no-one truly understands) but it should give you pause for thought. If these Rockerfellers and Rothschilds or whoever they may be are actually capable of creating and manipulating economic cycles with such a fine degree of control, they're godlike beings -- perhaps we ought to worship them. But we don't, because they're just people like us, with similar limitations.

I'll ignore the meows at the end of your post and remind you that you still haven't answered several of my earlier questions. The ones I'm most interested in are:

1/ What exactly is the scam being perpetrated here?

2/ Who is perpetrating it?

and, most interesting and pertinent of all,

3/ Why is it worse to buy and sell money than it is to sell books or chickens?

Eagerly awaiting your next etc...

[edit on 27-7-2006 by Astyanax]

Originally posted by Astyanax
That should do more than I ever could to convince you that the workings of modern economies are not merely the outcome of a conspiracy and that things are not as bad as you think they are (and not nearly as bad as Excitable Boy believes!)

'Fraid not, I have to remind Excitable Boy that this is a world wide problem and not just an American one. These legitimate sources are backing up what the conspiracy sites are saying.

Sources for what? The statement that economic cycles exist? That is hardly in doubt

Im a tad perturbed that Im having to repeat myself Nax, perhaps you should read my posts carefully as I made it clear my thoughts and questions to you.

My first point was Economic cycles may not exist, in fact they only exist because Economists want them too. I had that quoted very clearly.

I wanted sources for your claims! The claim that without central banks working their number magik... here Ill quote it again:

If left to its own devices, however, the market is cruel; the cycles can be rapid, short-lived and brutal.

Im asking if you can provide sources for you claims of that statement.

You say these cycles are caused by clever, manipulative men. I reply that if so, these men must be very clever indeed, since, by your own account, economists (who are also very clever -- some of them win Nobel Prizes an' all) can't seem to get a solid grip on the causes and dynamics of economic cycles.

Please read my post, in my theory of the cycles I have including a typical economist, Irving Fisher, and he ends up proclaiming its just an illusion, amung other things.

This doesn't surprise me (economies are unbelievably complex, open-ended systems that no-one truly understands) but it should give you pause for thought.

Its called obscuration and disinformation with a smattering of rewriting history. Want proof? Just study Economy as a subject while holding it clear in your mind that it is a scam, its there in black & white... the emperor has no clothes!

If these Rockerfellers and Rothschilds or whoever they may be are actually capable of creating and manipulating economic cycles with such a fine degree of control, they're godlike beings

Noooo... The cycles do not exist! Its is but a stream of data that clever men have been fooled into believing in some cycle, there is no cycle! Please read Dae's Economic Cycle Theory again

I shall answer you questions briefly:

1/ What exactly is the scam being perpetrated here?
Creating money out of thin air and chargeing interest upon it. Everything I have written so far explains parts of the scam, please re-read my inflation and tax comment. Shall we count the many ways we as people are getting shafted left, right and center? Just so we can exist and trade?

2/ Who is perpetrating it?
Dont know and I dont care. I care not for who runs the banks, only that we escape their clutches once and for all.

and, most interesting and pertinent of all,
3/ Why is it worse to buy and sell money than it is to sell books or chickens?
Ill answer that one later.

I have to say I wasnt being catty, I was trying to inject some humor on an otherwise dry subject. I also have to admit Im kinda dissapointed that Ive had to repeat myself or ask ya to re-read my posts. I have taken considerable time and much thought to post what I think... and Ill say no more.

Still looking forward to your posts Astyanax

1/ What exactly is the scam being perpetrated here?

2/ Who is perpetrating it?

and, most interesting and pertinent of all,

3/ Why is it worse to buy and sell money than it is to sell books or chickens?

Maybe I can help.

1. If you can't see the scam (and plenty of information has been given in regards to what it is and how it is being accomplished and by who), then you do not want to see it.

2. The who has also already been answered on this thread many times. If you choose to ignore that information, that is up to you. I'm not sure why you feel the need to ask questions that have already been answered. Maybe ask some questions that haven't been answered? Maybe read through the thread and you won't have to ask questions that have already been answered?

3. There is nothing wrong with buying and selling money. There is something wrong with loaning money that doesn't exist and then charging interest on it. "Buying and selling" is also called bartering. "Credit" is a completely different animal. The FED loans out money all over the world, money that doesn't exist. The FED clears $1 trillion per year TAX FREE on the interest from the money it creates out of thin air! That money goes into the greedy hands of about 300 share-holders in the FED.

This thread is not about buying and selling money.

You seem to understand economics (or at least seem to try to). I'm surprised you don't understand the difference between "barter" and "credit."

Here's a few interesting tid-bits!!

1890 — Standard Oil of Ohio is refining 90% of America's oil, thanks to Rothschild financing.

source: www.serendipity.li...

There's that name again...Rothschild. You see Astyanax....there is a serious conflict of interest here. Let's change the year to anytime after 1913 when the FED began. If Rothschild decides his business is hurting and wants to ask the government for help, he can then make money on both ends. He gets the federal funding money from the government and he makes money off the loaned money. Basically, he can create and borrow as much money as his little (and I do mean little) heart desires!...and make money doing it!!

1895 — Rothschilds begin to finance American business.They do so primarily through the Warburgs of Germany who were partners of Kuhn, Loeb and Company of New York. Both Warburgs and Kuhn/Loeb would be principals of Federal Reserve Board. Rothschilds would finance Rockefeller's Standard Oil, Carnegie Steel, and the Harriman Railroad system.

Still see no conflict of interest? How did these banks, that were already doing business together, manage to all get a piece of the FED pie? Was it just a coincidence?

1896 — McKinley elected president. Marcus Alonzo Hannah from Standard Oil of Ohio raised 16 Million dollars for campaign, otherwise unheard of until 1960's.

Standard Oil raised $16 million for McKinley? Why is that? Looks like the banks that were working on getting the FED in action had McKinley in their pocket. No conflict of interest??

1911 — Standard Oil of New Jersey found in violation of Sherman Anti-Trust Act. Forced to diversify, though all companies they split into, John D. Rockefeller had at least 25% of stock. Therefore, spirit of Sherman Anti-Trust violated.

1913 — Formation of Federal Reserve Board, a private organization, which began the practice of dictating monetary policy to government (in direct violation of U.S. Constitution). Federal Reserve Act was also called the Aldrich bill, after its prime sponsor Nelson Aldrich, the maternal grandfather of Nelson and David Rockefeller. One of the provisions for passage of the act was the identities of the class A stockholders of the Fed not be revealed. According to R.E. McMaster, publisher of a financial newsletter "The Reaper," the top eight stock-holders are the Rothschild banks of London and Berlin, Lazard Brothers banks of Paris, Israel Moses Seif Banks of Italy, Warburg Bank of Hamburg and Amsterdam, Lehman Brothers Bank of New York, Kuhn Loeb Bank of New York, Chase Manhattan of New York, and Goldman, Sachs Bank of New York. These banks own the Fed through about 300 stock-holders, with a lot of interlocking directorships and intermarriages. Aldrich Act voted down, but the same bill, with some slight modifications, was reintroduced just before Christmas, when many congressmen would have already left Washington. The Owens-Glass Bill passed into law on December 23rd. Act is unconstitutional Acceptance of Income Tax act by government (never legally voted into law). National Association of Manufacturers was exposed, through a series of articles in the New York World, as being involved in bribery of congressmen, other corruptions including union busting and violence against workers. Known to be Fascist. Mellon bank buys out Gulf Oil, opens first drive up gas station in Pittsburgh.

1913: Quite a busy year for the money-mongers!!

1918 — Formation of Thule Society, the beginning of the Nazi party. Alcohol prohibition starts. It's likely that certain interests like duPont, Standard Oil, and others created alcohol bans to prevent production of non-petroleum fuels for the burgeoning automobile industry. duPont begins production of rayon, continues research into synthetics.

Standard oil AGAIN! Those DuPont synthetics will soon lead to the illegalization of marijuana....

1918 — Formation of Thule Society, the beginning of the Nazi party. Alcohol prohibition starts. It's likely that certain interests like duPont, Standard Oil, and others created alcohol bans to prevent production of non-petroleum fuels for the burgeoning automobile industry. duPont begins production of rayon, continues research into synthetics.

1919 — Tea Pot Dome Oil Scandal, involving banker and soon-to-be Secretary of the Treasury, Andrew Mellon, Who knew of illegal oil lease sales. Henry Ford makes anti-Semitic views known. American Legion formed in Paris to discourage WWI veterans from demanding their rights.

Alcohol prohibition begins, just as Ethanol is about to compete with petroleum. Hemp is most efficient of the biomass fuels. Mellon has a hand in it.

Mellon is another scum bag money-monger.....and he becomes Secretary of the Treasury?

There's much, much more....be back later!!



[edit on 27-7-2006 by Excitable_Boy]

The poster should have asked the Federal Reserve what a "Joint Stock Trust" is.
The only one in existence in America that was Grandfathered by congress. No one person, place, or thing, natural or artificial person, or corporation may have one for all time except the Federal Reserve.
The only other kind of trust that supercedes this is a "Royal Trust" and that is what every country belonging to the IMF has become. All indebted nations operate their Gov'ts via "Royal Trust". The Gov't holds all the land, resources, military, gold & silver & anything else of "value"; including your childrens future labor via the Birth Certificate (an actual Bank note of the Elite). All property belongs to the "State" unless it was purchased by lawful gold &/or silver in "Fee Simple" with Alloidal claim. Anything purchased with debt notes isn't really yours, you are just renting like Fuedal Europe of the Dark Ages. Everybody has become fuedal serfs again without realizing. Remember slaves & serfs will only produce at a 25% rate but Slaves who believe they are free because of Gov't induced propaganda through public school will work at full capacity making the Fuedal Lords (shareholders of the "Crown") wealthy beyond all comprehension.
Do you know where these Trust are incorporated?
The city of London via the Judiciary & Temple Bar (Bar Association).
A simple glance at a Black's Law dictionary will slowly open your eyes to what words truly mean in law versus what public school & hollywood brainwash everyone.
The Mother of All Conspiracies that can tie every other conspiracy together can actually be found by studying Acts of Congress/Senate/Parliement. You have to look for yourself cause the Gov't lies as does your elective "History of the Western Civilization".
We have never been free! Don't pay your property taxes and find out who really owns your house.
Register comes from the root word regent which means to give to the King.
King is a high "office". Not divine like we are taught.
Who controls the "office"? Everything you thought you owned has been registered.
You registered your farmland, your car, your investments, your house, and worst of all you registered your children.
The world is governed by contracts. Every Gov't benefit you have ever received constitutes a tacit acceptance of a contract that binds your more than you could ever know or even begin to understand.
All contracts are binding, all must be honored.

Ask yourself this " who is the father of contracts?"
Now you know the rest of the story. Sleep well.

Originally posted by Dae
I wanted sources for your claims! The claim that without central banks working their number magik... here Ill quote it again:

If left to its own devices, however, the market is cruel; the cycles can be rapid, short-lived and brutal.

Im asking if you can provide sources for you claims of that statement.

It doesn't need a source. Commonsense observation, coupled with a knowledge of history, is all you need. What happens when a harvest fails? The price of grain rises. If it rises far enough, poor people starve. That's the market being cruel. That's one particular business cycle (derived from a seasonal cycle) being rapid, short-lived and brutal.

If, on the other hand, the authorities stockpile grain and release it onto the market during times of shortage (preferably using the normal distribution channels), then the shortage will be mitigated, the price of grain won't rise too far, and nobody will starve.

This is a precise analogue of what central banks do with the money supply. Why do you need to be referred to a source before you can see that?

Modern economies are highly complex and not based on agricultural production alone (except for monoculture economies, but that's another story). They offer a lot more potential for gluts and shortages of both commodities and money. Have you heard of the bullwhip effect? It's a term used by supply-chain managers. Look it up; it's one reason why complex systems can sometimes respond to stimuli much more drastically than simple ones. But I digress. The point is that modern economies are complex, hard to manage and potentially very nasty in their effects on the losers.

That's about all I have to say on that.

As to not reading your previous posts: actually, I've read them all, and I've dealt with what I thought needed dealing with. Still waiting to hear some answers. Okay, the scam is 'creating money out of thin air' (which no-one has yet proved happens), but who's doing it? Saying you don't care is just avoiding the question; I care, that's why I'm asking, and there is a point to my asking. And I'm still waiting for your word on the biggie -- why is selling money wrong?

You want sources? Read Frozen Desire by John Buchan. I think you will find it highly informative and illuminating. It is also full of references to other useful sources and the writer is sympathetic to your point of view, though he knows about money and he isn't swallowing any conspiracy stories.

That's the best I can do, I'm afraid. I'm rather busy these days (making money!) and I really haven't the time to trawl the web looking for sources. If you feel that means I should abandon the discussion, I shall accept that and do so.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
The who has also already been answered on this thread many times. If you choose to ignore that information, that is up to you. I'm not sure why you feel the need to ask questions that have already been answered.

Well, EB, the answers supplied so far are just assertions based on dubious sources. In my book, they aren't answers at all. I cleave to a higher standard of proof than the simple reproduction of what somebody said on a web site somewhere. We're talking about business, aren't we? So most of the information you need to support your case should be in the public domain. How about directing us to some annual reports, balance sheets, lists of shareholders, filings with the NYSE, auditors' reports, things like that? Verifiable evidence, not just a slew of claims. When I see answers to my questions based on properly verifiable sources, I'll be convinced.

Remember, I'm not the one making assertions here. I'm not the one carrying the burden of proof.

Originally posted by Astyanax
Commonsense observation, coupled with a knowledge of history, is all you need.

The Economics of Innocent Fraud: Truth For Our Time

John Kenneth Galbraith first warned us about 'the affluent society' and the dangers of being too addicted to ' the conventional wisdom'

This is a precise analogue of what central banks do with the money supply. Why do you need to be referred to a source before you can see that?

Because you have offered a few statements that you believed to be true, however, when I go and research your claims I find information that tells me otherwise.

Modern economies are highly complex and not based on agricultural production alone [snip] They offer a lot more potential for gluts and shortages of both commodities and money. [snip] The point is that modern economies are complex, hard to manage and potentially very nasty in their effects on the losers.

Yes yes, its very difficult and highly complex... What if its not? What if its dead simple? What if I told you that many people believe that modern economies are a scam?

Okay, the scam is 'creating money out of thin air' (which no-one has yet proved happens),

I can prove it easily enough, we live in it and its called Fractional-reserve banking (source is Wiki) and re-read my original article I want the Earth plus 5%.

but who's doing it? Saying you don't care is just avoiding the question; I care, that's why I'm asking, and there is a point to my asking.

The Bank of England has been going on for 300 years, as far as I know there are no 300 year old men walking around, there is no 'who' it is 'what'. The banking system is our perpetrator and we are its accomplice until such time as we end this madness. Tell me your point to asking who?

And I'm still waiting for your word on the biggie -- why is selling money wrong?

Why is that a biggie? My belief is that money should represent work done over time, it is a token of reward. Unfortunatly this thread is about the banking system, not capitalism, which is where my ranting would travel to if I tried to answer your question.

If you feel that means I should abandon the discussion, I shall accept that and do so.

Not at all! I dont mind doing the donkey work, you have a point too, you are arguing the side of 'conventional wisdom' so I guess its up to me.

Last point. I have spelled out the scam in one neat sentence, I have also picked at specifics to elaborate, for instance inflation/taxation, I havnt ignored the question of 'what is the scam' I have answered it, fractional reserve banking is one scam right at the top to another subscam such cheque clearence times.

And I'm still waiting for your word on the biggie -- why is selling money wrong?

This question has also been answered Astyanax....by me. This thread isn't about buying and selling money. That is not what the FED does. It creates money out of thin air, loans it, and makes money off the interest. That is not bartering...or buying and selling. That is credit...false credit I might add because they are loaning out something that doesn't exist.

I have to again add that for someone who comes across like he knows everything, I am amazed that you do not know the differece between BARTER and CREDIT!

Again....for the third time: This thread is not about buying and selling money!!

First off 'hi' everyone...

This thread is amazing. It's another reason why I love/hate this website. It has opened my eyes to so many new subjects I wouldn't normally have an interest in but there's so much info out there that it can litereally consume you.

I'm an average guy. And the simple fact is that I hate this subject. I hate to even think about money. All I know about it is that I work my azz off and never seem to have enough, growing evermore in debt. The subject of economics is very difficult for my mind to absorb... it's too abstract... to many variables, causes and effects... terminology is difficult.

However, I have to say I'm very impressed by the posts. In particular, EB, DAE, and Astyanax and have given each of you one of my WATS votes. You have all done a great job!

Anyway, I'm getting my feet wet now thanks to you guys. It's an intersting and important topic and one that I feel I need to understand. So...

DAE - Thanks for the I Want The Earth Plus 5% link. It made things very easy to understand. A great place for people like me to get started (honestly, sometimes I feel I need this stuff written in comic book form for me to get it)

I also just bought a copy of The Miracle on Main Street. I'm excited to read it.

Unfortunately I don't know enough to contribute to this thread... yet. Perhaps in the near future I will. However, I have a couple questions that perhaps you guys could help with:

1. I understand we can't do away with all loans, but are we blaming someone else here, the Fed, for our own problems? Why do we have to charge everything? Instead of charging the 60" plasma TV perhaps we should be saving and paying cash for the 27" tube. If we cut up the credit cards and paid cash would that solve this problem?
2. I keep reading that income taxes are paid to the Fed. I thought they go to pay for my public services (garbage, fire, police, etc).
3. What, besides going back to barter, can be done to fix the problem? Do we need to get back to the gold standard?
4. As things stand, it sure looks to me like we're heading for a crash. I read somewhere (sorry if I'm wrong, I'm trying to write this over my lunch break) that by 2010 our income will not be able to pay the intrest on the debt... or something like that (again sorry). What, if anything, can we do to protect ourselves? Buy gold?

Thanks everyone. Awesome job. I'll be keeping a close eye on this thread and I'll try to give myself a crash course on the subject so that perhaps I can speak with you intelligently.

edit: 5. Does anyone know if/how this fits in?27 Trillion Dollars owed to USA people

[edit on 28-7-2006 by mecheng]

Originally posted by mecheng
DAE - Thanks for the I Want The Earth Plus 5% link. It made things very easy to understand.

You know, thats the first piece of writing I read after doing a google search about 4 years ago. My son came home from school one day, telling me about kids mugging other kids for their mobile phones (didnt happen to him, he just heard about it). Feeling exasperated, I did a stupid google search, cant remember exactly but is was something along the lines of 'why is money evil'

Somehow I found that site rather quickly. I read it and was gobsmacked. The reason I searched wasnt clear to me that day but looking back I realised I knew something was wrong in how we operate (it wasnt just evil capitalism) and it had to do with money. Sounds simple and obvious but I got a hit, and it felt a rather large one at that.

So, after digesting what that article told me I recapped it all to my fella, told him how it appears that our money system is based on fraud via the route of loaning non-existent money and charging interest upon it. The article encouraged me to research the goldsmiths, their beginnings and the legacy we have today.

King William did to the UK with the The Tonnage Act of 1694, as did Woodrow Wilson in the US with The Federal Reserve Act of 1913. These acts were the seal of approval, the moment it all became standard and normalised.

WARNING: IF people decide to research the goldsmiths and bankers, prepare for The Jewish Conspiracy. You can either skip that and stay focused on today and the banking system or delve into lala land and prepare for rabbit holes!

Unfortunately I don't know enough to contribute to this thread... yet.

Yeah ya do, asking questions like you have is sweet.

1. I understand we can't do away with all loans, but are we blaming someone else here, the Fed, for our own problems?

I reckon the same, we will still need loans, however if the loan is coming from thin air, as it is now, then charging interest upon it is wicked wrong.

Why do we have to charge everything? Instead of charging the 60" plasma TV perhaps we should be saving and paying cash for the 27" tube. If we cut up the credit cards and paid cash would that solve this problem?

What you propose is very true, it is something we can do individually, however... Its like asking individuals to recycle while the corporations continue to pollute. Yes, I encourage everyone to get out of debt, save up etc. But this is no way to live, its not necessary. And truly, capitalism has helped keep back technology enough for the masses - that better mobile phone isnt just better it is improved technology, our heritage!

2. I keep reading that income taxes are paid to the Fed. I thought they go to pay for my public services (garbage, fire, police, etc).

A % of your tax pays for these things. Think about it, all that tax we pay, shouldnt our schools and hospitals be inlaid with gold by now? All those taxes and still we have to lay off nurses (UK). The loans our governments take out, the interest upon them, thats whats eating up our wealth.

3. What, besides going back to barter, can be done to fix the problem? Do we need to get back to the gold standard?

Good questions! I propose a Free Market. Within that market we have money based upon gold standard, bartering, and any method in which you need to trade in. There are so many workable ideas out there! I want to borrow an interesting book, Natural Capitalism, from my friend, there are some awsome ideas around.

However, for a start, we need to stop the private banking industry making money, it needs to be public and non profit. We need a Jubilee - the whole world has its debt cancelled.

4. As things stand, it sure looks to me like we're heading for a crash. I read somewhere (sorry if I'm wrong, I'm trying to write this over my lunch break) that by 2010 our income will not be able to pay the intrest on the debt... or something like that (again sorry). What, if anything, can we do to protect ourselves? Buy gold?

I hear buying gold and silver is a good thing, but anything that has real value must be safer, but I dont know. My fella reckons there is going to be a crash but I dont think so, the last hundred years, specifically in the last 30 or so, much tweaking has been done to keep us away from any serious crashes, crashes are not natural and to have a crash today will certianly make people question the system that facilitated the crash - it will draw too much attention to them.

So what to do? Join or create a pressure group that insists on our banking industry to be public and non-profit making? Ive been thinking about this alot but we need to do something and soon!

Originally posted by Astyanax
If, on the other hand, the authorities stockpile grain and release it onto the market during times of shortage (preferably using the normal distribution channels), then the shortage will be mitigated, the price of grain won't rise too far, and nobody will starve.

This is a precise analogue of what central banks do with the money supply. Why do you need to be referred to a source before you can see that?

Precisely. The one who has the grain can set any price he/she wants to. What's to keep them from creating a false shortage, i.e. telling the public that there is a shortage, so they can increase prices?

And that's the whole problem and explains quite nicely how the market is rigged. The ones holding the grain can affix any price they want. What's to keep them honest?

To summarize: We have the Federal Reserve, a group that is privately held with no one from the public able to buy stock from them, the company that holds U.S. money, ya know, the People's money? This group is highly secretive, and why is that I wonder? With that much money they can control the world and have done so for quite awhile it seems.

Nax, did you read the link at the beginning of the thread that told how the first Rothschild made his money? He basically created the banking system as we know it today. When you read about his ruthlessness and his ambition, why would you believe that he created an honest system? He found a way to create money by doing nothing but lending money he didn't have. That is creating money out of thin air. Further, if our money was backed by a gold standard, then we would have actual wealth. But we don't, our dollar is backed by nothing but thin air. I guess somebody figured at some time that since we're a superpower, we don't need no stinkin' gold, our word is good enough.

But here's the kicker: our monetary system is a house of cards. And now, with many other countries considering going off the dollar as the standard payment for oil, well that will greatly devalue our dollar, making it more worthless. Many, many economists are predicting a great crash soon in the U.S.

Nax, the Economist sounds like it is run by FEderal REserve econimists; of course, they want you to believe their myths. The truth is, econimics is not a science, it's a bunch of theories, based on the assumption that the market isn't fixed. They make it seem very complicated so the average person will figure, screw it, I'm not gonna read something I can't understand. They give up and just accept the status quo and standard myths propagated by those that run the nuthouse, er, uh, government. THe truth is that the market is at least partially fixed (I'm being conservative here with my estimate) and with all that money and power that the top dogs have, the bigger question is: Why wouldn't they? It's way too tempting, and humans tend to be greedy. Nax, I'd be interested to hear what you say about that.

There is an excellent book called "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" by John Perkins. It was written by an economist who worked for the U.S. govt - he talks about the government's scam with the IMF to make poor countries even poorer by loaning them money at exorbitant interest rates that they could never repay, ever. And he knew what he was doing. It's a fascinating book. He really uncovers a big part of the economics scam.

Terrific thread Nax, Dae and EB, thanks so much for your contributions, they're all very informative. Kudos to all of you and you especially EB for starting a great thread and doing all the research you've done. I really enjoyed the Rothschild's history link. One last thing, of note: In that article, it says that Rothschild created the Illuminati and then had Adam Weishaupt running it. It is well known that before William Huntington Russell founded Skull and Bones at Yale, he heard about Adam W.'s ideas and went to Germany to talk with him. He was an advocate of his ideas. It has been surmised that S & B may well be part of the Illuminati, the group that Rothschild founded. Interesting connection, no?

One last thing, of note: In that article, it says that Rothschild created the Illuminati and then had Adam Weishaupt running it. It is well known that before William Huntington Russell founded Skull and Bones at Yale, he heard about Adam W.'s ideas and went to Germany to talk with him. He was an advocate of his ideas. It has been surmised that S & B may well be part of the Illuminati, the group that Rothschild founded. Interesting connection, no?

That whole piece was a great read. S & B may be connected or they just might be wannabees?? Germany is obviousyl massively involved in this and always has been. All the major banks involved in the FED have their roots in Germany.

I hate this crap and am also fascinated with it. Fascinated with the level of the greed of these men. Greed, power, control...etc. Truly disgusting. I don't think people truly realize the amount of people that have been killed as a direct result of the greed of these people. The amount of money these people make off of wars for instance....i.e. VIETNAM. These blood sucking scum bags made trillions of dollars off of the blood of how many of our young men? 60,000 or so?? These scumbags did business with the Nazis during WW2...talk about playing both sides. And....they run the FED? And....they STILL run the FED? Why weren't they ever tried for war crimes or for treason?? WHY? BECAUSE THEY OWN EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING!!

The title of this thread says: "when is something going to be done about it?".....what can truly be done? What was JFK able to do? If JFK couldn't get it done, what could I possibly do about it?

But I ramble....

One group that had the power, the means and the greed to be behind 9/11....was this group. They could very well have been behind Pearl Harbor as well. I'm sure they have made lots of money off of both attrocities and many, many others.....

I finished off with some info on Kuhn Loeb last time...not going to bother posting their website...it will say the same as all the others, since they are all connected anyway. They are all "Illuminated Ones." The Illuminati. They have the power and means to do anything. They control more money than any other indivual or organization.

Who is this Israel Moses Seif? Working on that one...

NEW WORLD ORDER
thirteen families effectively control the central banks of all the hard-currency countries. These "control banks" all practice FRACTIONAL RESERVE BANKING, which is perfectly legal in the US. Fractional reserve banking means that the bank is only required to hold on hand the small fraction of money (5%) that is needed to cover the fraction of deposits likely to be drawn upon and cashed. Moneys deposited in accounts go into a reserve upon which credit can be issued. In the US credit can be issued to seven times the reserve, in international banks (off shore establishments) twenty times the reserve can be issued as credit. It is imp[ortant to understand this concept in order to understand the larger picture.

In the mid 1970s, the final phase of System 2000, a "global creditors' unilateral totalitarian plan" was put into effect. A Pentagon official and three other US officials went to the Prime Minister of Nigeria and offered him fifty million dollars in cash to double the price of light crude oil. Nigeria is one of only two countries in the world that produce light crude, which is an extremely pure form of oil whose price sets the standard for all other forms of crude oil.

source: www.indybay.org...

System 2000...a plan by global bankers to control all money being borrowed. This was a real plan in the mid 1970s!

Nigeria is bought off with $50 million to double the price of light crude oil?? Why would the FED involve itself in what appears to be a con game? The FED is wrought with con-artists? Now that is hard to believe!

We had a serious gas shortage in the U.S. in the mid 1970s didn't we? I guess I don't believe in coincidences.

Nigeria doubled the price of light crude, the price of oil from the Mid-east went up and the price of a gallon of gasoline in the United States jumped to $1.20. (My note: In Italy, where I was living at the time, it was costing $1 a LITRE after the oil price was sent through the roof.) Unwittingly, Americans began to finance System 2000 with every tank of gas they bought.

As the money began to pour into the Arabian countries, the sheiks fulfilled their promise to invest in the U.S. and began buying stocks, bonds, and real estate. More importantly, they put their money into thirty-year timed certificates (drawn up by the international bankers). Remember that Arabs went from camel-riding nomads to wealthy international investors in a very short period of time and they had no grasp of how the banking system worked; in particular, they did not know about the concept of fractional reserve banking.

We help our lovely "friends?" in the middle east to invest in the U.S? So they start buying stocks, bonds and real estate and make good money while the FED holds all the paper and REALLY cashes in.

It's not hard to figure out that the FED, right now, is making absurd amounts of money off of the war in Iraq and the new war in Israel and Lebanon...and pretty much any other conflict going on at this time. They have made money off of every war and conflict since WWI........A CRAPLOAD OF MONEY!! An amount of money that no longer has meaning. Actually it does have meaning. That money could all be used properly to help mankind, not help destroy it!!

These "Illuminati" are all disgusting and each one should be behind bars for the rest of their lives and some or maybe all should get the death penalty for giving the death penalty to millions of young men since WWI!!

The Phillipines is one example of what happened to Third World countries in the next stage of the plan. The international bankers went to President Marcos and presented him with a way out of the enormous debt his country faced. They said, "We will forgive your loans - you'll have to pay none of the principal, none of the interest - if you will just sign this agreement: 1) do away with its national currency, 2) go to a debit-card system where each person is assigned a number and his purchases are debited from his account on a computerised system and 3) sign over perpetual rights to all natural resources in the country.

The offer was tempting since it would put much of the labor force back to work and solve many of the country's economic problems. But Marcos realised that becasue of the word "perpetual", he was virtually giving away the sovereignty of his country. He refused to sign the agreement. Weeks later he wass deposed and his country was torn apart by riots which Jonathon May says were incited by the international bankers.

Other countries decided to accept the agreement when it was offered to them. Recently Brasil, Argentina and other nations have announced that they do not plan to pay back their loans. They failed to mention that the loans had been excused in exchange for the rights to their natural resources.

At this point all the dominoes are in place and the international bankers are ready and waiting for their opportunity to topple them.

This is enough of this article for me to post...it is a definite must read. The FED likes to "buy" third world countries by loaning them more than they can afford to pay back and then covering the loss by taking over ownership of ALL the country's natural resources. Do you realize how much money we are talking here? ALL THE NATURAL RESOURCES of one country after another. This has been going on for 93 years people.

These are some horrible people. They give new meaning to the word GREED. I can't at the moment find any good info on Israel Moses Seif....so I will have to get back to that. I will leave you with this:

4.12 - Is the Federal Reserve Bank (FRB) a Privately Held Corporation?
4.12.1 - Yes.

4.13 - Does the FRB have a majority of foreign ownership?
4.13.1 - Yes.
Foreign owners (76%):
52% by Rothschild Bank of London and Berlin
08% by Lazard Freres Bank of Paris
08% by Israel Moses Seif Bank of Italy
08% by Warburg Bank of Hamburg and Amsterdam

U.S. owners (24%):
06% by Lehman Brothers Bank of New York
06% by Kuhn Loeb of New York
06% by Chase Manhattan/Rockefeller Bank of New York
06% by Goldman-Sachs (Treas. Sec. Rubin's Alma Mater)

4.15 - Is it true that the steady decline of our purchasing power and standard of living are a direct result of changing our money, from a wealth-base to debt-base, by the Federal Reserve Act and related laws?
4.15.1 - Yes.

4.16 - Why has the Fed never been audited?
4.16.1 - The FED has so much power (Money) that those Congressional Bills, introduced to require an audit, have been defeated by those Congressmen, who receive campaign contributions--bribes--from the Banks.

source: www.cal-neva.com...

All the same banks/scum bags. Some numbers on what percent is owned/controlled by who. 76% of the FED is controlled by people in foreign countries? Does this make sense?? That means, foreigners are making $760,000,000,000...yes $760 Billion off of the United States every year. And the United States makes nothing off the United States every year?? Every year it goes deeper into debt. We've actually been bankrupt since 1933.

Read on my friends....it's provocative!


[edit on 1-8-2006 by Excitable_Boy]

New member here that loves this thread. I appreciate all of the effort that both Excitable and Dae have put into informing the members of the scam that has been illegally perpetrated upon all of us. Us "little" guys desperately need to band together and inform all the people we can about what is really happening; doing so would be a slap in the face of all the banking elites who are banking (pun intended)on us to just shrug our shoulders and do nothing. Knowledge is everything and all of us who have it regarding this topic are responsible not only to ourselves, but our family, friends, and communities to expose this tragedy and hold those responsible culpible for their atrocities. I look forward to reading more and hope to contribute to this and other threads here.

Here is a link to who owns the IMF, the U.N.
These are actual court cases:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 2-8-2006 by BattleofBatoche]

What about that charming fellow.....Prescott Bush.....

Investigative journalist John Loftus has advanced the view that history will view Prescott Bush, (grandfather of current President GW Bush, father of former President Herbert Walker Bush) as harshly as Thyssen an industrialist who made the Nazi industrial war machine possible. In Loftus' words, "It is bad enough that the Bush family helped raise the money for Thyssen to give Hitler his start in the 1920s, but giving aid and comfort to the enemy in time of war is treason. The Bush bank helped the Thyssens make the Nazi steel that killed Allied solders. As bad as financing the Nazi war machine may seem, aiding and abetting the Holocaust was worse. Thyssen's coal mines used Jewish slaves as if they were disposable chemicals. There are six million skeletons in the Thyssen family closet, and a myriad of criminal and historical questions to be answered about the Bush family's complicity."

source: en.wikipedia.org...

Prescott Bush...War Criminal. Guilty of treason against the United States. No charges ever brought against him as have never been charged against any of these Illuminati and Illuminati-Wannabees!!

This is the best part of that post: "It is bad enough that the Bush family helped raise the money for Thyssen to give Hitler his start in the 1920s, but giving aid and comfort to the enemy in time of war is treason. The Bush bank helped the Thyssens make the Nazi steel that killed Allied solders. As bad as financing the Nazi war machine may seem, aiding and abetting the Holocaust was worse. Thyssen's coal mines used Jewish slaves as if they were disposable chemicals. There are six million skeletons in the Thyssen family closet, and a myriad of criminal and historical questions to be answered about the Bush family's complicity."

Prescott Bush helped the Nazi war machine! Prescott Bush was directly responsbile for the lives of thousands of Americans and people from other nations.

How did this man end up with 2 sons running the United States? You'll find your answers within the FED. Why didn't he face treason charges??

We have a war and OUR freaking "Central Bank" is helping finance our enemies!! Now tell me HOW THAT MAKES SENSE?? And Astayanax...tell me what that has to do with buying and selling money....


All American interests in the FED are connected to the Rothschild family. ALL AMERICAN INTERESTS!

Each of the American interests is in some way connected to the Rothschild family. Included among these are the Rockefellers who are by far the most powerful American stockholders of Federal Reserve System member banks. The Rockefeller holdings in the Federal Reserve are primarily through the Chase Manhattan Bank, which in recent decades has taken in very significant funding from Saudi royal family investors.

Through their U.S. and European agents, the Rothschilds financed the Rockefeller Standard Oil dynasty, the Carnegie Steel empire, and the Harriman railroad system. The Rockefeller clan, which later became intermarried with the Carnegies, financed many of American's leading capitalists through Chase Manhattan and Citibank.

Many of these families intermarried with the Rockefellers so that by 1937 one could trace "an almost unbroken line of biological relationships from the Rockefeller through one-half of the wealthiest sixty families in the nation."

Owing much of their wealth to the Rockefeller, these families have become loyal allies of the "family". The Rockefellers, on the other hand, owing their enormous fortune to the Rothschild banking empire, have for the most part remained true and loyal to them and to their European interest.

As a direct result of this chain of banking and corporate ownership, much of America's corporate wealth is ultimately traceable to the old money of Europe and the ONE-WORLD INTERESTS of its members, who are New World Order advocates and exercise policy influence through institutions such as the Bilderberg Group and the Council on Foreign Relations over the governments of the word as well as through psyops campaigns exercised via their ownership of the corporate mass media in order to exercise influence over the populations of those nations.

These financial interests fund covert black operations exercised through unaccountable freelance military and civilian intelligence agency groups that are utilized for psyops operations involving terrorism and assassination both within the United States as well as worldwide. Many top researchers believe that the assassinaton of US President John F Kennedy, as well as in more recent years the 9/11/01 attacks in the US as well as the 7/7/2005 train bombing in London are examples of these ongoing covert black operations paid for by internationalist banking interests.

The intent of these operations is to move the populations politically in one or another direction, primarily to the political "right" and to impose a mindset of support for legislation such as the US Patriot Act I and II which has laid the foundation for martial law within the United States.

The "Illuminated Ones" are some of the worst psycopaths to ever exist on this planet. If Hitler were alive, he would be one of their cronies! They'd be discussing the deaths of thousands/millions over a round of golf at the club.

[edit on 2-8-2006 by Excitable_Boy]