Extremists, all of you...I want you in this thread

oh, i didn't mean to insinuate that i'm a libertarian. i refuse to be pigeon-holed into any one school of political thought. i was just giving an example.

Originally posted by 25cents
oh, i didn't mean to insinuate that i'm a libertarian. i refuse to be pigeon-holed into any one school of political thought. i was just giving an example.

And, that my friend is a good thing. You think objectively and for yourself. Apparently most people just read a book for Dummies on how to follow a particular ideology.

Originally posted by zenlover28
Not so. Smith vs. Maryland ruled in 1979 that your phone numbers are not your personal property and are given to a third party and you should have no reasonable expectation of privacy with them. Society does not recognize it as a reasonable expectation of privacy because the numbers you dial are willfully given to the phone companies anyway. Not saying I agree with it, but that's how it is. Also you need to do your research on past presidents. You're blaming this solely on Bush.

Actually, Im not. Blaming it solely on Bush. Im a Libertarian, so I don't see the Democrats through rose colored glasses either. But Bush has by far been the worse offender.

Again, Im not disputing the legality of it. Its the moral rightness of it. As I said, its Orwellian. And I believe the law should be changed. Phone lines are just like private conversations. The government has no right spying on you without a warrant and probable cause. Its making citizens criminals.

And also, the 4th Amendment only says that you have the right to be secure in your persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures and refers to places to be searched. No mention of privacy there when it comes to your phone number or anything else for that matter.

Probably because they didn't have phone lines back in 1787!

Ummm okay. I suppose the rest of your post is referring to Guantanamo Bay exclusively. Now, first off I want to say that I in no shape, form or fashion agree with the torture that has gone on there. However, I do have to take a reality check every now and again and realize that place is Disney Land compared to Russia and their treatment of Chechnans and the Chinese and the Tibet, etc. And I have to think about the realities of what happens in war time. But, just so you know Guantanamo Bay is not on U.S. soil. It is in Cuba. Now, it doesn't make it right and i'm not attempting to argue your opinion of it, just the facts of it. The Constitution does say that being born gives us a right to due process which makes it a Liberty (a freedom) and not a U.S. right. And, I think we are being hypocritical by not allowing others those freedoms regardless of being on U.S. soil or not. But, the fact remains that it isn't on U.S. soil, and that is how they look at it. Nothing I can do about it. I think it's wrong. But, that's just my humble opinion.

Technically, Guantanamo bay is U.S. soil. Just like American embassies abroad are considered U.S. soil, as are military bases.

And I disagree that China or Russia are worse than Gitmo. Playing the Barney themse song for 48 hours on a loop? Torturing inmates with Christina Agulerra music? Thats just.........wrong..........

Id take bamboo shoots under the fingernails, electrocution, stretch racks, and boiling oil anyday!

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Actually, Im not. Blaming it solely on Bush. Im a Libertarian, so I don't see the Democrats through rose colored glasses either. But Bush has by far been the worse offender.

You know I think it's wonderful that you point at both sides. But, the thing is..you should consider the big picture. Not just the American side of things. We have to face reality. Our government has it's problems. They need to be fixed. We need to unite and attempt to fix them. Because without our government...this is the facing reality party.....you won't have those rights. We can live in a world of fantasy thinking that we can take down the U.S. government and have complete freedom with very limited government involvement. But, as our history has shown...that's not the reality of the situation. So, we need to all pull together and make needed changes while adapting to the reality of the situation in this World and get over ourselves and our complete selfishness. You know what my main problem is with Libertarians in this country? They want an egotistical society. Not that we aren't egotistical already...but I mean entirely. They don't care for the majority of people. They care for themselves and themselves only....which is what they say they are against.

And I believe the law should be changed. Phone lines are just like private conversations. The government has no right spying on you without a warrant and probable cause. Its making citizens criminals.

Again, like I said, I didn't say that's how it should be i'm just stating the reality of the situation.

Technically, Guantanamo bay is U.S. soil. Just like American embassies abroad are considered U.S. soil, as are military bases.

No, technically it isn't...it is not on U.S. soil. The U.S....I guess you could say is sort of leasing it until we decide to give it back to Cuba.

I'm going to give you an opinion here. It's only my opinion, just like you have your opinions. I realize the U.S. has done a lot of shady things in the past. I also realize that other places in this world are just as capable of doing shady things and have done so in the past. We're all human. I think the threat to the U.S. extends far beyond the Middle East. I think our government is playing a game. Such as denouncing the existence of WMD's in Iraq. I think they are playing this game because they realize that there is a threat of this country being taken over and that threat far extends the Middle East. And, that's just an opinion on the matter.

Have a nice day!

I have to disagree with you on one point zen.

I do not see any threat, even remote, of Muslim fundementalists taking over the U.S. We have more a danger of religous fundementalists in this country turning us into a Christian theocracy than we do of Muslims. They ain't fighting the Muslims because they fear they are a threat, like the Soviet Union once was. Hell, China is more a threat to our security, and we are doing biz with them.

We are in the middle east fighting for two reasons: oil and Israel. If you do not believe me when I say Israel has a disturbing power over U.S. policy and behavior, please read about the U.S.S. Liberty incident.

I do not think we should kiss any country's ass, certainly not some little hellhole like Israel. But we do. This bothers me.

You certainly are entitled to your own opinions and beliefs. Its your right as an American and an individual. Just as I am entitled to mine. But I do not share your fear of them taking over the U.S. If you were speaking about Europe, I might give it a second thought to the fear of takeover, mainly because of the higher ratio of Muslims in Europe, but beyond that, I wouldn't.

The Muslims and terrorists do not scare me anywhere near as much as the nosy big brother state that seems to be developing, and no security is worth the price of losing what we have. Otherwise, we become a totalitarian theocracy. Just like the Muslim states you fear.

skaadi.

wait. i'm going to make a whole new thread about this. probably some OTHER time when i'm drunk and can think clearly. but i'll go ahead and let you all know the gist of my intent -




YOUR THEORIES ARE FAILURES, AND YOUR ATTEMPTS AT CHANGING THE WORLD FOR THE BETTER FALL UPON DEAF, IGNORANT EARS


kk, i'm done.

Originally posted by 25cents
skaadi.

wait. i'm going to make a whole new thread about this. probably some OTHER time when i'm drunk and can think clearly. but i'll go ahead and let you all know the gist of my intent -




YOUR THEORIES ARE FAILURES, AND YOUR ATTEMPTS AT CHANGING THE WORLD FOR THE BETTER FALL UPON DEAF, IGNORANT EARS


kk, i'm done.

What attempts at changing the world? I dont want to change the world. I just want to clean up the big pile of dog poo that is fouling my territory: the corruption in this country. I could care less about the rest of the world. Other countries should be responsible for their own problems and be left to take care of their problems on their own without our help or interference.

And I know my rants fall on deaf ears. Hell, I learned 20 years ago the world was a deaf, apathetic place.

But as long as I still have lungs, Ill rant. The deaf ears Im not interested in, they made up their minds long ago. Im more interested in the crowd that decides to put a hearing aid on for a change.

I think of myself as extremely moderate, does that count? I know that some of the purists around here were extremist before it was cool and they'll say that I'm just making that up to cut in, but if they don't have any real objections I think the militant center needs to be represented.

Militant Centrism: Compromise or I'll kill you!

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Militant Centrism: Compromise or I'll kill you!

Vag, good tactic. Make it look scarier than it actually is...scare the heck out of them all. LOL I always leave Militant off when discussing my stance. I think it is an oxymoron to what we stand for.

you are SICK IN THE HEAD AND SHOULD BE DESTROYED......

if YOU think that it is OK to SACRIFICE even 1 persons life........

and i'll bet all of YOUR money the sacrifice WILL NOT BE YOU........ huh?!

we might as well be in aztec times

and cut the hearts out of YOUR VICTIMS.............SAME F'in THING!!!!!!!!!

no we just send them off to kill as many as they can before they get killed.........

coward!

they knew of pearl harbor, project northwoods, 9-11, and many others.... it just simply makes me sick. im sorry if i sound so condescending (sp?) but these types of things shouldnt go over so easily without our great citizens being able to do something about it.

you cant use pearl harbor as an example at all from the time they first thought it was possible that attack was coming (nobody knew for sure) it was only a few hours before it happened. In those times getting a message sent and a fleet ready in just a few hours was impossible.

Originally posted by yeah right
you are SICK IN THE HEAD AND SHOULD BE DESTROYED......

if YOU think that it is OK to SACRIFICE even 1 persons life........

and i'll bet all of YOUR money the sacrifice WILL NOT BE YOU........ huh?!

we might as well be in aztec times

and cut the hearts out of YOUR VICTIMS.............SAME F'in THING!!!!!!!!!

no we just send them off to kill as many as they can before they get killed.........

coward!

Eh? Who you speaking too? If you're speaking about what The Vagabond said...ummm I think he wasn't serious....just joking. You know, funny ha ha. Let me guess, you're a Liberal?

I don't think this is a debate. It is a tirade against anyone who doesn't like the turn this country is taking. IMO the law in 1979 that allowed phone numbers to be given isn't the same as allowing our phone conversations to be monitered. That is a play on words to make it sound like the same thing.

It doesn't feel good when you leave Denny's restuarant and see the triangle with an eye in it the says "Digital Angel is Watching you"

When the powers that be decide for the individual his personal choices and regulates them Life Liberty and Pursuit of Hapiness is definitely being challenged by those who deem we aren't responsible enough to choose for ourselves. To create a law is to create a crime. We are all criminals to some degree. If you don't see the writing on the wall where this country is going just wait.

I don't want to debate with you because you are coming off as mean spirited and arrogant. Defend all you want about what the US is or isn't involved in. The truth will be seen sooner than you think. I don't claim to read the future but it doesn't take a psychic to see the Fabian/Socialist style the government is imaging.

Originally posted by interestedalways
I don't think this is a debate. It is a tirade against anyone who doesn't like the turn this country is taking.

Yeah, well that's what you get for thinking. If you read me at all, then you'll know that I am one of the people always saying that I don't like the way this country is heading. However, I try to remain objective about it as much as possible instead of going to the extreme...because I don't live in la la land. I live in reality. I didn't buy and read the book, "Libertarianism for Dummies" or whatever the case.

When the powers that be decide for the individual his personal choices and regulates them Life Liberty and Pursuit of Hapiness is definitely being challenged by those who deem we aren't responsible enough to choose for ourselves.

Ummm, we're not responsible enough....how do you think our country got here in the first place? Do you think the government just took all this power or do you think we handed it over to them?

To create a law is to create a crime. We are all criminals to some degree. If you don't see the writing on the wall where this country is going just wait.

Yeah, yeah yeah. Blah, blah blah. Well, you know I don't want some arrogant selfish idiot running off with my purse and getting away with it....or not serving my African American or Hispanic friends or some child molester molesting children just because his selfish arse wants to do what he wants.

I don't want to debate with you because you are coming off as mean spirited and arrogant. Defend all you want about what the US is or isn't involved in. The truth will be seen sooner than you think. I don't claim to read the future but it doesn't take a psychic to see the Fabian/Socialist style the government is imaging.

Socialist eh? I thought the rhetoric around here was that the country was heading towards Fascism? I can't keep up with it all. But, yeah we have been heading towards Socialism mainly because the good hearted Liberals decided a few minorities needed to be treated as equals and deserved some rights just like you....you know...because they weren't equals and because society wasn't responsible like you claim.

And, mean spirited....lil' ol me? Honey, you don't even know what mean spirited is. I think mean spirited would be purposefully taking away all of the laws and our rights in this country just so egotistical selfish people can do as they darn well please. You don't have a clue what would happen in this country and you don't care. I may shoot it to you straight, but the last thing I am is mean spirited. In fact if you've actually read anything i've said, you'll see i'm quite easy to get along with.

And don't give me the Founding Father's BS about what they meant for this country to be. They only meant it to be that way for white men in case you haven't noticed.

Originally posted by interestedalways
IMO the law in 1979 that allowed phone numbers to be given isn't the same as allowing our phone conversations to be monitered. That is a play on words to make it sound like the same thing.

My apologies that I didn't see this when I posted my last post. But, I wanted to point out that Skadi and I weren't discussing the NSA warrantless spying on phone calls. Perhaps you could reread his post? Besides, the FISA laws cover what happened w/what you are referring to . Again, i'm not saying it's right...just how it is.

ZenLover, I am sure you have an important point to make; I just can't quite figure out what it is.

You seem to be angry with anyone who is an "extremist" -- as though being someone who is extreme about anything is some sort of bad thing. My particular extremism is baised toward individual liberty and responsibility; for that reason, I look upon "conservatives" and "liberals" as just different sides of the same corporate fascist, welfare-warfare statist coin.

I know others who are extremists toward government involvement in a person's life; interestingly enough, the left-wing statists same to save their blackest bile for the right-wing statists, as though there were much of a philosophical dfference btween the two of them! And of course, the feeling is roundly reciprocated by the right-wing statists.

But to each his own; as much as I think the statists are robbers of my liberty and property, at least I can understand that these people care about something to be extremist.

That's ever so much better than someone who, by calling himself a 'moderate', says that he has no strong beliefs at all and goes where the winds of opportunity blow him.

Originally posted by Off_The_Street

ZenLover, I am sure you have an important point to make; I just can't quite figure out what it is.

And the point of your post is what exactly?

You seem to be angry with anyone who is an "extremist" -- as though being someone who is extreme about anything is some sort of bad thing.

Yeah well duh it kind of is a "bad" thing.

I know others who are extremists toward government involvement in a person's life; interestingly enough, the left-wing statists same to save their blackest bile for the right-wing statists, as though there were much of a philosophical dfference btween the two of them! And of course, the feeling is roundly reciprocated by the right-wing statists.

Uh huh.

But to each his own; as much as I think the statists are robbers of my liberty and property, at least I can understand that these people care about something to be extremist.

Yeah, well I figured all you cared about was yourself anyhow.

That's ever so much better than someone who, by calling himself a 'moderate', says that he has no strong beliefs at all and goes where the winds of opportunity blow him.

Oh yes....by the way i'm a 'herself'. And, say about my beliefs what you wish...I have more passion in my little pinky than you probably have in your entire body....because of course all you care about is YOUR Liberty and YOUR property.

Come back anytime...i'm thick skinned. Your rhetorical BS doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Originally posted by zenlover28
But, just so you know Guantanamo Bay is not on U.S. soil. It is in Cuba.

Well, Macho Woman...er, uh, Ann Coulter..er, uh, oh yeah that's right, Zenlover.
First of all Gitmo most certainly IS considered to be on U.S. soil. yes, it's in Cuba, but it's a military base and like all military bases around the world, it is considered to be on U.S. soil.

Read this from the Times in the UK: driving.timesonline.co.uk...

"AMERICA’S Supreme Court opened a door to legal challenges from Guantanamo Bay detainees yesterday when it ruled that the military base on the southeastern tip of Cuba was, legally, US territory."

This article was written over 2 years ago. And unless you don't think the Supreme Court is a legitimate arm of the govt, you have to admit that you're wrong about it. I have found that the more arrogant a person is, the more often they are usually wrong, because they're too closed-minded to actually shut up and listen, so they might learn something.

Ya know, I think extremism is a subjective thing. Someone may consider me to be conservative compared to their thinking, while someone else may think I'm liberal by their standards. Used in the way that you are using it in this thread, it also comes off as judgmental. Our Founding Fathers were Extremists however you view that. Without the Extremists, we wouldn't have ever had a U.S.A.

I must admit I don't really like how you come off, which is: You judge people, you have a closed mind, and you're just aching for a fight, it would seem. Mean-spirited? I think so, too. I don't like macho, biased attitudes anywhere. My two cents.

Amendment XIV.

Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

HMMMMMMM

Semper

I DONT KNOW ABOUT YOU ALL, BUT ILL TAKE AN EXTREMIST OR ANYONE TO FIGHT THE BATTLE FOR GOOD. IT IS GOOD TO HAVE AN OPINION, OPINIONS IS HOW WE LEARN AND KNOWELEDGE IS THE KEY TO POWER COME TOGETHER PEOPLE AND PUT DOWN THE PETTY.