Israeli Soldiers Were Captured INSIDE Lebanon

Originally posted by subz
I want to know how Olmert has the audacity to claim that Hezbollah's actions were an "act of war" when the Israeli soldiers were captured INSIDE Lebanon at Aita al-Shaab.

Correct me if I am wrong my fellow ATS'ers but isnt sending troops into a sovereign nation itself and "act of war"? So wouldnt it be reasonable to assume that it was infact Israel that declared war on Lebanon before the Israeli troops were captured?

The sources said the Israeli soldiers had been seized at around 9 a.m. (0600 GMT) across the border from Aita al-Shaab, some 15 km (nine miles) from the Mediterranean coast.

news.yahoo.com

Kind of changes the whole situation dont you think? Israel declared war on Lebanon by sending troops across their border. Hezbollah capturing some and killing others is completely justified since Israel invaded them.

>Fixed link

[edit on 13/7/06 by subz]

.
hezbolalala captured (and murdered 3 soldiers too) on our own border,VERY close at our fence,thos soldiers ware at a simple petrol mission,6 (or 7) soldiers,2 hummers( or was it humvees? at any rate they set up trap after the last petrol before that one passed,broke into the fence,and shot a faw RPG's) the first hummer was a total mess,noone survived,They captured the soldiers,and ran away.


that area lacked security ,the operation was prepered for alot of time allready,and there was a definite failure to secure that area.

and no,we don't want to take over the world

Originally posted by Jewish_hammer

hezbolalala captured (and murdered 3 soldiers too) on our own border,VERY close at our fence,thos soldiers ware at a simple petrol mission,6 (or 7) soldiers,2 hummers( or was it humvees? at any rate they set up trap after the last petrol before that one passed,broke into the fence,and shot a faw RPG's) the first hummer was a total mess,noone survived,They captured the soldiers,and ran away.


that area lacked security ,the operation was prepered for alot of time allready,and there was a definite failure to secure that area.

and no,we don't want to take over the world

Although I personally condemn the abduction of the three soldiers, it is totally irrational to destroy an entire country, it's economy and infrastructure. Before you start arguing, let's take another example.

In Iraq numerous people have been abducted the last few years, the Jew Nick Berg for instance. Although this was a terrible act of terror, there would be no justification to bomb the hell out of Iraq, nor would the world accept it.
But hey, who can stop Israel, they are allowed to do everything they want. While Iran isn't allowed to produce nuclear weapons, Israel was.

Edit: and I am not an Arab.


[edit on 20-7-2006 by Mdv2]

Edit: and I am not an Arab.

Then you must be an anti-Semite...after all, you have criticised/questioned Israel...

Originally posted by centurion1211
Geez, I thought the hisbollah and hamas appeasers and apologists were quicker than this. After all, it's taken them over a week to come up with this attempted spin.

This article was written six days ago genius.

Originally posted by centurion1211
Maybe they spent too much time on the "Oh, the civilians!" spin.

So you think complaining about civilian deaths is nothing more than spin? Hang on a minute, isnt Israel destroying Lebanon because of Hezbollah's killing of Israeli civilians? Is that spin too?

You have voted subz for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Seems like someone else didn't do their research.

Or bothered to notice the timestamps

Originally posted by Beachcoma
You have voted subz for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Thanks!

Originally posted by Beachcoma
Seems like someone else didn't do their research.

Or bothered to notice the timestamps

Quite so, I tend to not pick at peoples reputations because its so easy to make mistakes yourself. Such a case in point as noted above could not of been better timed

This is an interesting collection of quotes from major news sources stating that the Israeli troops were captured inside Southern Lebanon.

THE TWO ISRAELI SOLDIERS WERE CAPTURED IN LEBANON

Nasrallah personally admitted to the cross border raid during a press conference in Beruit on July 12, 2006. He named the operation www.usatoday.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> “Truthful Promise”. .

The Forbes article is an AP article; however AP moves away from the initial report later the same day, their time line of events shows:

- 2006: On July 12, Hezbollah kidnaps two Israeli soldiers in cross-border raid. Israel responds by sending in tanks and by bombing bridges and roads in south Lebanon to try to prevent the hostages from being taken north.
AP Article

More than likely an error in early reporting.


mg

One more thing.

Guys I just went through Google Earth and compared it to the blue line establishment as recorded by the UN in resolution 1583, and the borders in Google Earth ARE NOT ACCURATE.

BTW. The reason for some of the early confusion is because the event took place in shebaa farms, which is DISPUTED by Hezbollah as Lebanon territory. Alaa Shahine, the Routers reporter who filed the Yahoo article used in this thread lives in Lebanon, so may have made the mistake of thinking this happened in Lebanon. I notice the article is corrected.

The reason shebaa farms is not recognized as Lebanese territory by the rest of the world is because Lebanon agreed to UN resolution 1558 and 1559, which established the border. The claim was later made by Lebanon that the Blue line was wrong, and shebaa farms was in Lebanon, but UN resolution 1583 which has this clause:

“Responding to the request of the Government of Lebanon to extend the mandate of UNIFIL for a new period of six months presented in the letter from its Permanent Representative to the United Nations of 11 January 2005 to the Secretary-General (S/2005/13), while reaffirming that the Council has recognized the Blue Line as valid for the purpose of confirming Israel’s withdrawal pursuant to resolution 425 and that the Blue Line must be respected in its entirety,

said indeed shebaa farms does still belong to Israel as far as the UN is concerned.

Read the entire resolution available in this Press Release to get everything in context.

Originally posted by darksided
One more thing.

Guys I just went through Google Earth and compared it to the blue line establishment as recorded by the UN in resolution 1583, and the borders in Google Earth ARE NOT ACCURATE.

BTW. The reason for some of the early confusion is because the event took place in shebaa farms, which is DISPUTED by Hezbollah as Lebanon territory. Alaa Shahine, the Routers reporter who filed the Yahoo article used in this thread lives in Lebanon, so may have made the mistake of thinking this happened in Lebanon. I notice the article is corrected.

The reason shebaa farms is not recognized as Lebanese territory by the rest of the world is because Lebanon agreed to UN resolution 1558 and 1559, which established the border. The claim was later made by Lebanon that the Blue line was wrong, and shebaa farms was in Lebanon, but UN resolution 1583 which has this clause:

“Responding to the request of the Government of Lebanon to extend the mandate of UNIFIL for a new period of six months presented in the letter from its Permanent Representative to the United Nations of 11 January 2005 to the Secretary-General (S/2005/13), while reaffirming that the Council has recognized the Blue Line as valid for the purpose of confirming Israel’s withdrawal pursuant to resolution 425 and that the Blue Line must be respected in its entirety,

said indeed shebaa farms does still belong to Israel as far as the UN is concerned.

Read the entire resolution available in this Press Release to get everything in context.

Not realy, the shebaa farms are disputed , and they were disputed numeros times,
shebaa farms are not part of israel teritory and in the present time it's seen by the UN as iligaly ocupied teritory.
It's disputed if it's sirian or lebanon teritory as the UN curently states, it's not under israely side of the border, it's iligaly ocupied land, while there was a resolution saying it's not lebanon's land recently it was rulled by the UN that the land is not israelian land because it's realy sirian land and that israel must give it back because it's presence there is iligal.
english.people.com.cn...

At the closing session of the summit, chaired by Lebanese Foreign Minister Mahmoud Hammoud, participants in the Beirut Declaration call on Israel to abide by relevant U.N. resolutions to achieve a just, durable and comprehensive peace in the Middle East.

The document urges Israel to review its policy, and to withdraw its troops from all occupied Arab lands, including Syria's Golan Heights, the Shebaa farms in southern Lebanon and alestinian lands.

The document calls on Israel to review its policy of aggression and occupation, and to withdraw its troops from all Arab lands it has been occupying since 1967, including Syria's Golan Heights, the Shebaa farms in southern Lebanon and Palestinian lands.

So the soldiers were captured out side of israely border, what were those soldiers doing there?

I dont know how people can back up israel when israel breakes resolutions after resolutions invading teritorys and commiting crimes.
How can some one back somebody like this up is not clear to me.




[edit on 27-7-2006 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by pepsi78
So the soldiers were captured out side of israely border, what were those soldiers doing there?

Depends who you are. The soldiers were captured in Shebaa farms, which the world and UN recognize as Israel based on Security Council Resolution, but Hezbollah considers Lebanon.

If Hezbollah was a sovereign state, maybe they could make a claim, but Lebanon signed the UN Resolution, so Hezbollah has no claim.

If the Israelis were, indeed, captured inside of Lebanon, then I have to ask a simple question. By what authority were these captured/kidnapped Israeli's being held? The Hezb'allah do not represent the Lebanese government. The Hezb'allah were banned and ordered to be disbanded and disarmed by a UN Resolution. The Hezb'allah do not have authority to do anything but pick up a telephone and call Lebanese military authorities.

If, as good Lebanese citizens, the members of Hezb'allah were to have captured Israeli soldiers within the borders of their country. I would imagine that they should have turned them over to the Lebanese military. Then, the Israeli and the Lebanese governments could have had talks between themselves --- two sovereign nations -- to discuss their release and to make certain that future incursions into Lebanese territory did not re-occur.

By their actions, Hezb'allah has, for all intents and purposes, shown that they are an illegal "government" within a the territory of a sovereign nation. It has shown that Hezb'allah carries out their actions and plans with total disregard for the laws of a legitimate government -- Lebanon. Furthermore, it clearly demonstrates that, through their actions, that the UN resolutions against the existence of a military arm of Hezb'allah were justified.

Regardless of whether the Israeli soldiers were kidnapped or taken prisoner because of a border incursion, the actions of Hezb'allah were clearly illegal and against international law, the resolutions of the UN, the sovereignty of Lebanon and against the state of Israel. Hezb'allah simply did not have any right, whatsoever, to "arrest" and hold the Israeli soldiers.

Originally posted by darksided

Originally posted by pepsi78
So the soldiers were captured out side of israely border, what were those soldiers doing there?

Depends who you are. The soldiers were captured in Shebaa farms, which the world and UN recognize as Israel based on Security Council Resolution, but Hezbollah considers Lebanon.

If Hezbollah was a sovereign state, maybe they could make a claim, but Lebanon signed the UN Resolution, so Hezbollah has no claim.

What are you on? Shebaa Farms is recognised by the UN as SYRIAN, not Israeli. The poster above explained that, but you willfully ignored. Also, when quoting the same article I am about to below, you seem to omit the very last piece....curious...

On May 22, 2000, Israel completed its withdrawal from the south of Lebanon in accordance with UN Security Council Resolution 425 [1]. The UN certified Israel's pullout [2]. The January 20, 2005 UN Secretary-General's report on Lebanon explicitly stated: "The continually asserted position of the Government of Lebanon that the Blue Line is not valid in the Shab'a farms area is not compatible with Security Council resolutions. The Council has recognized the Blue Line as valid for purposes of confirming Israel’s withdrawal pursuant to resolution 425 (1978). The Government of Lebanon should heed the Council’s repeated calls for the parties to respect the Blue Line in its entirety." [3] Timur Goksel, a spokesman for the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) told the BBC that "on all maps the UN has been able to find, the farms are seen on the Syrian side [of the border]." [BBC News (London), 25 May 2000.]

Source

Actually, the first kidnappings were done by Israelis as reported in The Guardian in June.
observer.guardian.co.uk...
www.jkcook.net...

Originally posted by darksided

Originally posted by pepsi78
So the soldiers were captured out side of israely border, what were those soldiers doing there?

Depends who you are. The soldiers were captured in Shebaa farms, which the world and UN recognize as Israel based on Security Council Resolution, but Hezbollah considers Lebanon.

If Hezbollah was a sovereign state, maybe they could make a claim, but Lebanon signed the UN Resolution, so Hezbollah has no claim.

Dude WTF ??,I just told you it's not lebanon's teritory, but sirian teritory, and not israel and not lebanon has rights over it, that security resolution is given for lebanon to respect that, but UN states that it's sirian at the curent time.

Pepsi, I bet he won't listen again, I bet he'll blindly claim that the Golan Heights, Gaza and the West Bank are all Israeli Territory as well...

That is right, this is not self defence, it's been demonstated that any way you put it israel is not right, in fact all the countrys acuse israel of it, that's why there was no agreement in rome, because all the countrys participating at the UN sumit do not agree with israel and the US, the only country puting oposition for the stop fire is united states, how is it when 1 country stands against a whole world helipng israel to igonre UN resolutions, and helping israel kill more people by their own weapons shiped in israel, I just dont see how some one with a healthy mind would see things diferent.

I can envision the Israelis conceeding the Shebaa Farms to Lebanon in some kind of cease fire agreement. The Shebaa Farms are of no strategic importance for Israel but in conceeding them to the Lebanese they would remove the last semblence of legitimacy Hezbollah has as a resistance militia.

Hezbollah hangs on to its weapons citing the fact that Israel occupies the Shebaa Farms which Lebanon claims as Lebanese with the tacit support of Syria. As mentioned above the UN does not recognize the Shebaa Farms as part of Israel, but a part of Syria.

You watch, the Israelis will relinquish their claim over the Shebaa Farms and use it to pull the rug out from under Hezbollah. They'll also use the withdrawal as some kind of proof that they are not imperial in their goals.

[edit on 28/7/06 by subz]

Subz I found this little article here that talks about the kidnapping and also about Shin Beit vetoing a secret negotiation plan with the Palestinians. Was interesting but not sure about the source.
Phone numbers and email are listed at the bottom

Just hours before the meeting was due to start, the Israeli Shin Bet internal Security Service arrested Abu Tir and Abu Arafa and warned them not to attend the meeting, under threats of detention. The meeting, which offered a major opportunity to obtain Shalit’s release and launch a new framework for peace, was thrown into disarray. The next day, the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) invaded Gaza, and the day after both Abu Tir and Abu Arafa were abducted by Israeli forces, along with a third of the Palestinian Cabinet, provoking a predictable escalation of violence.


Israel simultaneously began conducting covert incursions on to Lebanese territory, provoking Hizbollah’s capture of two IDF soldiers. Credible sources confirm that the soldiers were not abducted on Israeli territory, but inside Lebanon. Like the scuppered peace negotiations, Western officials have ignored this, and misinformed the media. However, some reports corroborate the sources. Israeli officials, for instance, informed Forbes (12.7.06) that “Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon, prompting a swift reaction from Israel.”

Never heard of that site before
Guerrilla News network??? Source

Thanks ThePieMan (That sounds like Earl Hickey )

Im sure this issue of where the soldiers were captured and who did what will be common knowledge in 50 years. It'll be in those war documentaries you see now a days where all the spin and people involved are dead so the truth of what really happend comes streaming out.

Much like the real reasons why Israel invaded Egypt in 1958. It was not that Egypt had threatend Israeli security, it was that Israel had agreed to a French/British request to invade Egypt as a pretext for those two powers to intervene and secure the Suez Canal once more.

But back in the 50s and 60s we were told that Israel had invaded Egypt because Egypt was massing its forces in the Sinai and intended to attack Israel. No one questioned this version of events because it is what Israel, Britain and France said happend. Countries never lie do they?

It wasnt until British ex-PM Eden died that the signed protocol asking Israel to invade Egypt, at the behest of Britain and France as a pretext for their own invasion, was publically released by Israeli PM Ben Gurion.

Countries lie ALL THE TIME and in this day and age I find it soul destroying that the majority of people still dont believe it possible.

[edit on 30/7/06 by subz]