This is How Modern Man Treats the Ancients

Originally posted by mojo4sale

Originally posted by Harte

snip.... The (former) Colonial powers are governments. You can throw an individual into prison. What can you do to Parliament?

Harte

What i would like to do, sorry cant say without breaking the T&C. How many private collections do you think would contain illegally removed artifacts, are these private collectors ever bought to justice, i cant think of too many, probably because most of these would have significant contacts/influence within govt and academic circles? Sorry for wandering off topic.

Well, the international accord is fairly new. I bet Hawass might have an idea of previous and pending case counts. Here's his website:
guardians.net...

Even the briefest glance at that site reveals the extent to which Hawass is involved in recovering stolen artifacts.

Harte

It's a significant find. It should be protected. That's pretty much what needs to be said about it.

Troy

This thread started about some indigenous people painting on some of their own land, and has turned into a discussion about the west's pilfering of other culture's treasures.

Funny, just like the west thought that they had the right to go in and steal what they wanted (and still choose to keep) people in the west still feel it is their right to tell others what they should be doing with their own land.

Like I said, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

[edit on 16-7-2006 by phoenixhasrisin]

I see it as just another page for the the temples history book. In the end, it won't matter.

Originally posted by mojo4sale probably because most of these would have significant contacts/influence within govt and academic circles?

Most likely because these private collectors also fund museums and such, and fund expeditions in the hopes of adding to there collections.

Its a two edged sword really... where to draw the line between "grave robbing" and a genuine search for our past... Personally displaying a bunch of mummies in a museum does nothing for me.. I know how and why they were buried that way... let them RIP... but thats just my opinion...

On the defacing aspect... tourists have a nasty habit of not caring... leaving litter, marking walls... trying to brak off a piece of something.. anything as a souvenir... [our natural caves are a good example... we had to make it a federal offence to break off a piece of rock] I would love to see the inside of the Great Pyramid, but its closed to the public due to vandalism [and people just breathing moisture]


Private collectors are bad news, but they do fund expedition as I said, so I guess the justification is "well let them have a piece or two.. at least we get the rest... without their money we wouldn't have anything"] Doesn't ,ake it right... but thats life..

Amateur Collectors are a little different, because they don't hoard what they find. Yet because of abuse by non serious collector who want to exploit something for money, we here in the US pass laws that effect eveyone..

Case in point Fossil Hunting... it is now against the law in most states to dig up dinosaur bones [the court case over that big T-rex they found a few years ago] yet Museums claim that amateurs have found some of the best specimens ever, and the Museums don't need to spend the money for the serach, as amateurs do it lovingly...

Then I see a documentary on a field of dinosaur bones and skulls in the Gobi desert... the palentologist is holding a skull of a common herd dino... showing them scatterd behind him... at the end he just tosses the skull to the sand...

How do they expect the public to respect things when the pros do this on live TV?

Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
This thread started about some indigenous people painting on some of their own land, and has turned into a discussion about the west's pilfering of other culture's treasures.

I think I knew that was inevitable and it does really fit under the same banner.. defacing, looting same disrespect. I just think its more a global thing not just the west at fault. But I will admit the west glorifies the practise. Indian Jones and other such films show that... same theme if the gotta stop the "bad guys" from getting the treasure. So send in the "good guys" to get it first.. Fun to watch... great adventure and everyone dreams of finding treasure... but it does breed acceptance in the public...

Zorgon,

What you show is not how modern man treats the "Ancients" but how their direct descendants still use and honor traditional community (public) gathering sights.

In your first 3 images you picked ones that have modern day shaman practicing thier "freedom of religion". If you get the chance to go to Peru, which I highly recommend, the "graffiti" is all part of the experience. Like a billboard used and reused for centuries.

The last image shown is just that, their version of a billboard! I don't know what or if the "zoning" laws in Peru allow for "western" style billboards (Peru is western after all), but if the locals want to make a change in style.... Take that anger and open a billboard company in Peru. Get rid if the "graffiti" and make a bill or two on some nice wood and steel advertising signs!


Now on a more constuctive note: I recommend to you a very good book to fuel your fire! "Stealing History: Tomb Raiders, Smugglers, and the Looting of the Ancient World" by Roger Atwood


Really worth a special order if you can't find it at your local book store! (Yes they still have real live places to buy books!)



[edit on 18-7-2006 by CasualOne]

[edit on 18-7-2006 by CasualOne]

[edit on 18-7-2006 by CasualOne]

Originally posted by CasualOne
Really worth a special order if you can't find it at your local book store! (Yes they still have real live places to buy books!)

HEY I resent that!! I buy lots of old books from book stores

you mean THIS ONE?

hehehehe Yes, that's the book. I love the feel of a book in my hands, the turning of the pages, smelling the paper, the changing textures as they are handled and age!

These forums are just as impersonal as buying a book online

Oh, how I long for the smell of a pipe, the low roar of exited talk, underscored by the frantic flipping of pages, all washed down with an Aged Tawny!


Take Care!

Originally posted by CasualOne
Oh, how I long for the smell of a pipe, the low roar of exited talk, underscored by the frantic flipping of pages, all washed down with an Aged Tawny!

Ah but there is such a place, just down the street from me. Albion books... but and sell old stuff. Not dark and dusty like most old book stores... No liquor, but great coffee

This is why they close places to public viewing...


The new "hieroglyphics"

ZORGON...IF WE CONTEMPLATE THE AMOUNT OF GRAFITTI ON SOME ANCIENT SITES AROUND THE WORLD HAVEN'T WE FORGOT ABOUT WHOLE CIVILIZATIONS/CULTURES THAT HAVE BEEN WIPED OUT COMPLETELY...WE CAN CLEAN THE SITE TO, BUT CAN WE BRING BACK THOSE LOST CIVILIZATIONS ? SOMETHING TO PONDER !!!!!!!

Oh I ponder that a lot...

But that sadly seems to be the way of Man... out with the old and in with the new

And it may in light of that be a trivial thing to worry about grafiti and other damage like looting for private collections and profit...

But what happens is that sites are closed, barring serious researches from studying the past in a hope to learn from previous mistakes to help the future...

Pipe dream? Maybe... but I still have a little faith in Human Kind

There is some good news....

Wednesday, July 26, 2006 · Last updated 3:32 p.m. PT

Ancient statue looted in Iraq is returned

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

BAGHDAD, Iraq -- A prized statue of an ancient king that was stolen during widespread looting in Iraq following the U.S. invasion three years ago has been returned to the country's government, U.S. and Iraqi officials said.

U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad and Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki held a ceremony Tuesday in Washington, D.C., to repatriate the 4,000-year-old statue.

Made of rare black stone, the headless statue of Entemena is the oldest known representation of the king of ancient Iraq. It was excavated in the early 20th century near a temple in southern Iraq by University of Pennsylvania and British Museum researchers.

Along with hundreds of other valuable cultural holdings, the statue was taken from the Iraq National Museum when looters ransacked the country's cultural sites in April 2003.

Officials say confidential informants earlier this year notified the U.S. Department of Homeland Security with the statue's whereabouts. It was found in May and authenticated in June, officials said.

The ceremony coincided with al-Maliki's visit to Washington to meet with U.S. leaders about the deteriorating security situation in Baghdad, where sectarian violence has left hundreds dead in recent weeks.

SOURCE



Even during the middle of a terrible war we can still be concerned about the heritage of our past. [this one is less current but I think it illustartes the point]

Last Updated: Friday, 1 August, 2003, 09:00 GMT 10:00 UK

Iraqi treasures to tour US

The Warca vase was returned to the Baghdad museum
The Baghdad museum is lending some of its greatest treasures to the US, just months after fearing much of it had been looted.

The museum in the Iraqi capital was hit by a wave of looting in the days following the fall of Baghdad.

But after recovering much of what was thought to have been stolen, the Iraq museum is keen to show off its items of cultural importance.

SOURCE



Looted Iraqi artefacts 'found in London'


So if this kind of cooperation is possible even during years of warfare, surely we can control a little graffiti?

Here is a long article about the current problem with looting and destruction especially in the Middle East where War is increasing the problem...

Antiquities Lost