Courtesy Is Mandatory

Originally posted by seeingevil

Originally posted by Majic
Our staff consists of volunteer ATSers who have agreed to support the membership by impartially and faithfully enforcing the AboveTopSecret.com Terms And Conditions Of Use.

That isn't happening though and that is precisely the point of my previous post.
............

We are being honest here, and i am presenting this in an attempt at making constructive criticism.

Seeingevil is making a very good point, although not every mod does this, but the proof that there is not as much "unbiased modding" as there should be, started more strongly when a while ago a member claimed "conservatives are taking over the forums" , when that has never been true imo, and a certain mod stated "we are working to solve that", (in similar terms) and that was not one of the regular mods making such a statement....

Since that time there has been a more biased turn in modding than there should be.

Some of you already know me. I treat people, members and staff alike as they treat me. If people are not condescending, and or insulting, but rather discuss a topic in a civl manner, i do the same.

When some member insults me, or tries to be a "smarta##" with me, i show that i can be a bigger "smarta##", yet more often who is being warned when I, or some other member from a certain political opinion responds to insults?...

If this bias is brought up in the forums, most often those threads are immediately removed, or when some other member or i send a conplaint we are told "it is being handled behind the scenes of the forums", yet more often than not the members that get warned, and even at times get banned from posting, are those who have a different view from many of the members and staff.

Many times the problems result because action is not taken when certain members start the insults, or the unwanted remarks, but when certain other members respond, they are the ones being given the warning flags.

What happens when members derail topics and try to continuously bash and blame at the United States for every evil happening in the world? nothing happens. But when other members respond to those "out of topic claims" the member trying to set things straight gets warned to stay on topic, and many times gets a warning flag.

The truth is that ATS has become a far left website, and this is demonstrated constantly by the lineancy towards those members who are left leaning. It has gone so far left, that there is no more room to the left to go to.

Of course all of this is immediately dismissed as not being the truth, or members are being told to go ahead and leave if they don't feel they are being treated without bias. Well the thing is, ATS is supposed to be an open forum where "everyone from every political standpoint should be able to state their opinion, or make statements without any getting any repercussion because of their political standpoint."

Again, this is an attempt at constructive criticism. ATS is supposed to be a place where everyone from every political standpoint can make his/her point.

There should be a more "unbiased approach" when dealing with such issues, and although it is being claimed there is is an "unbiased approach" it hasn't been demonstrated by actions.

They say that actions speak louder than words, and that is true.

Don't try to tell me that "things are many times resolved behind the closed curtains and out of the public forums" when the member who makes such offenses does not get any form of warning, or banning from posting, yet someone like myself gets immediate warnings, and at some cases "banning from posting" and as a response i am told "it is for your own good".... that is just insulting my intelligence.

[edit on 20-8-2007 by Muaddib]

reply to post by Muaddib


I truly get where you're coming from.
It seems the influx of new members at the start of the holidays(Not all) brought with it a disregard for the T&C. If it was even skimmed over at all.

Respected members reply in a knee jerk fashion to what appeared to be deliberate attempts to flame/troll/whatever you want to call it.
They then receive warnings for doing so.

It's a fact of life that people do sometimes lose their composure in such cases,unfortunately the evidence remains in print for all to see even when the mood has passed and tempers settle.
In 'Real Life' arguments a simple 'sorry, I lost it' would suffice but on forums such as this it can come back to haunt you.

I'm pretty sure no-one would want to see ATS degenerate into tacky adolescent name calling.
If you check out the likes of google video(why don't they just get rid of the comment section )you'll see what it can lead too.
I'm suprised some of them even have the IQ to find the keys to type such complete turdfest.

The best way to handle deliberate recurring trolling goes against what we learn in school and life

Go snitch on them. U2U a mod. Grass them up!!

But don't feel bad about it because you're actually doing everyone a favour.
Hopefully they will get bored/go back to school/get banned before too long and business can return to normal

[edit on 20/08/07 by AGENT_T]

Originally posted by AGENT_T
...............
Go snitch on them. U2U a mod. Grass them up!!

But don't feel bad about it because you're actually doing everyone a favour.
Hopefully they will get bored/go back to school/get banned before too long and business can return to normal

I have done that, many times in the past. I don't bother anymore because everytime i have gotten the same response "It is being handled behind closed curtains, and out of the public forums"....yet at the end nothing is done, and there are also times when i have made in the past, and I mean months ago, complaints, and i have recieved no awnsers.

So the best way to bring something like this up is to actually bring it to the forums, which i have also tried on occasion, and most often those threads get thrown in the trash bin without a second thought.

[edit on 20-8-2007 by Muaddib]

But... But... What About Courtesy?

I am very much aware that some (heck, maybe even most) members have concerns about moderator bias and staff misconduct, but...

That's not what this thread is about. :shk:

In this thread, I'm just trying to point out that the terms & conditions we all agree to honor by posting here require us to be courteous to one another.

That's basically it.

If you truly believe you're being mistreated as a member and want the world to know, feel free to start a new thread, because this really isn't the right thread for that.

On the other hand, if you have strong feelings about the issue of courtesy in our forums, you're in the right place.



Edit: P.S. Muaddib, if a thread is a "he said/she said" issue, it usually gets moved to complaints so we can resolve it via U2U. However, if it's a matter of more general concern to the membership, it usually stays in BB&Q. If you want to start a new thread on the general issue of moderator bias (i.e., without naming names or other drama bombs), go for it. If you are having any trouble with any of this, please send me a U2U.

I promise: We aren't trying to antagonize anyone or suppress their opinions. When you get to the bottom of all this, it usually turns out to be a misunderstanding between friends.

Just sayin'.

[edit on 8/21/2007 by Majic]

I wanted to add to Majic's comment that if you're feeling someone isn't being courteous, just hit that "ALERT" link at the bottom of the offending post. The person who posted will never know you did so, and even if you don't get a response or a public execution, know that we are addressing it.

Courtesy is Mandatory on ATS, unless...

You happen to be a "no plane" theorist in the 9/11 forum, in which case you can freely tell people who ask serious questions and point out the flaws in your logic that they are delusional, suggest people are crazy, tell them they have no idea what they are talking about, question their sanity and post smears about other 9/11 researchers from other websites in quotes.

Theres a whole host of double standards going on in some of those threads. Yes, its done politely, but its there.

Suggesting someone is "crazy" is not a debate tactic, its a smear.

i totally agree, some people need to count to ten before they reply to a post and remind themselves to "be nice"

Also, I think it's highly discourteous to post wild assertions as fact with no supporting evidence other than your own word. Kind of like taking a dump in public. Also discourteous-posting stuff that you know bombs Occam's Razor and not caring.

We all know who I'm talking about.

reply to post by Jim_Kraken


It is not discourteous for members to believe things that you may not, or to entertain possibilities that cannot be conclusively proven. ATS is agnostic. Until there is incontrovertible evidence, ATS does not officially believe or disbelieve any theory, no matter how fringe or how likely.

I think it takes a certain degree of credulity to believe in certain things that have been discussed here, but I do not find the discussions offensive. All ideas can be avenues to truth.

We know clean in contrast to dirty. We know small in contrast to large. We know falsehood in contrast to truth. If I tell you that the secret capital of the United States is beneath Denver International Airport, and that a Reptilian Shapeshifter Shadow Government from Atlantis under the leadership of Zionists from Atlantis rules from there, you might go to the trouble of showing me where the power REALLY is in order to prove that it is not with the cabal I have conjured in my mind.

Everything I ever learned started with me either being wrong or not knowing at all. Had I never had a foolish idea I never would have learned anything. Imagine how discourteous I would be then.

reply to post by The Vagabond


But that's what you don't get. With hoaxers there will almost NEVER be incontrovertible evidence...it's better to use a common sense test whereby we judge whether that person should've known better or not.

ATS members make minced meat out of hoaxers on a regular basis.

But the incredible is not necessarily a hoax.

What if 2000 years ago, I pointed down into the lion's pit in a Roman colloseum and said, "see that guy there? He's a member of a secret society called Christianity, and they are going to dominate European politics for over a millenium- all they've got to do is convert one emperor"?

What if in 1862 I told you that the new Chancellor of Germany was going to pick 3 wars in 8 years and completely change the face of Europe forever, culminating in two world wars that would bring back countries that hadn't been seen on a map in centuries?

What if in 1940 I told you that the government was working on a piece of technology that could destroy or power an entire city with only an amount of fuel that you could load up in the back of your pickup truck?

What if you and I were at Eisenhower's farewell address together, and when he said the words "military industrial complex" I told you that over the next 13 years we would lose 3 presidents- one killed, one forced to refuse a nomination, and forced to resign, so that by 1973 the POTUS would be a man who had never been elected to any office higher than congressman, all in the midst of the longest war in American history?

What if in 1991, when George H W Bush uttered the words "New World Order" I told you that a former CIA assett was going to attack America in 10 years, allowing Bush's son to launch a much more extensive war in the middle east than even the Gulf War? What if I said it again after the PNAC released its infamous paper on the need for a new pearl harbor?

Life is OUT THERE. Every now and then these conspiracy theories, however out there, however unlikely, however lacking for evidence, end up to be accurate, and you'd never see it coming unless you were one to entertain unlikely but possible scenarios without hard evidence in either direction.

And just imagine, 10 years from now I'll be making this same post all over again for somebody else- I'll copy and paste the whole thing, with one change:

"What if I told you back in 2007 that..."

[edit on 6-12-2007 by The Vagabond]

reply to post by The Vagabond


On the flip side of the coin, what if Hubbard, Adamski, "John Titor" so on and so forth were right? Of course, we all know now that they are irrefutably wrong. I say, bring proof and pass Occam's Razor, or get off our board.

[edit on 6-12-2007 by Jim_Kraken]

This is what the multitude of forums are for. Discussion about topics that may or may not follow the main. If they don't agree with your conceptions of truth, tell us why or why not, it's what you're here for isn't it? To discuss ideas, theories, etc..., that's why I'm here any way.

reply to post by Jim_Kraken


But how did we arrive at the conclusion that they were wrong? We discussed it ad naseum and discovered inconsistencies. We wouldn't know for certain if we had chased those discussions away as "impolite" simply because the ideas were improbable.

If we decided it was impolite to bring up something that couldn't be conclusively proven and that had simpler explanations, we would still have no idea why Hubbard was not to be believed. Nor, as I mentioned earlier, would we be able to anticipate sometimes very real events based on loose evidence.

The way I see it, a truly great ATS thread begins with the kind of hunch most people would laugh at. It leads to more research, which finds the hunch to be possible but highly unlikely. Then it culminates with the hunch proving correct. If the evidence were irrefutable, or the conclusion the simplest one possible, there would be nothing impressive about it. We have a mainstream media to spoon-feed us the most likely answers (when it is not more profitable to lie to us instead). I for one come here because I am impressed with how we are collectively able to sometimes intuit the unfolding of more complex and unlikely events.


Also, allow me to add Sherlock Holmes' collary to Ockham's Razor.
"When all other possibilities have been eliminated, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." Afterall, the razor stipulates, "all things being equal" which makes it a strictly theoretical tool with only rough application in the real world- even before getting into what quantum physics might do to the idea of things "being equal" in a world where quantifying anything is just shy of impossible.

Contact was a great flick. I don't care what other people say or how iffy the religious and scientific implications were. I just wouldn't use it as a lense through which to view all questions.

Just Another Friendly Reminder

Moderators are members too. Lately I'm seeing more and more rudeness directed toward staff members.

If you disagree with a staff action, you are welcome discuss the matter with the mod in question via U2U or submit a complaint.

Public tantrums and abusive behavior toward moderators, on the other hand, indicate a desire to disrupt our forums and will not be tolerated.

I don't recommend testing our patience on this issue.

Got to agree with you there. There does seem to be an increasing amount of rudeness towards the mods. Personally I think that they do a great job in difficult circumstances. This site is constantly changing and these people give up their spare time to keep things running smoothly. I don't think I could do it. I really don't think that some people appreciate the effort that the mods put in. We may not always agree with them but hey, that's life. If every was simply courteous, it would make their jobs a lot lot easier, as well as making ATS an even nicer place to be.

[edit on 17-12-2007 by more_serotonin_pls]

reply to post by more_serotonin_pls


Agreed More of the Good Stuff and Majic...

The way Vag put to sleep that fool earlier in the thread made me think that as a community, we should show our Mods and Amigos some much deserved love and respect in the days counting down to New Year...

I'm not subjecting sleeping with a Mod or Amigo, tho many of them would luv it hahahahaha

But folks, leading into a New Year on this board, lets make Mods life a lil easier....Lets not report silly lil borderline violations of T&C (one liners, blah blah)

Lets back Mods to the max by posting when they deal with legit people who massively offend the T&C...God knows there is tons of 'em here at the mo...

But most of all, whenever you have a contact with a Mod, be nice, give em the blessings of the season....BUT...

Most of all, whether you got a slap on the wrist, or a warn where you lost a WHOLE 500 pts (*gasp !!!*), or whether it was for a one line or whether you had a post snipped in some way...

Walk away from the computer for 15 mins, take a breath/smoke/some kind of personal activity...

And the come back to your computer and remember one thing...

We would not have the greatest alternative news portal and discussion board on the WWW without these men and women who work to make sure we uphold a high standard on this board...

If anyone thinks this is good cause to chew a Mod or Amigo out, the door is thataway..

Thanks for listening to my rant, but its more than that...Its why I truly love this place and the people within it...

Peace

Tony


[edit on 17-12-2007 by Rilence]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
It is not discourteous for members to believe things that you may not, or to entertain possibilities that cannot be conclusively proven. ATS is agnostic. Until there is incontrovertible evidence, ATS does not officially believe or disbelieve any theory, no matter how fringe or how likely.

And herein lies a problem. Consider what happens if that "incontrovertible evidence", either in favor or against a certain claim, is based on mundane science. Example: tidal waves that have been studied for centuries. IMHO it smacks of dis-courtesy if somebody says "well all that mainstream science is crap, there is no tidal bulge, no tidal lock and Kepler's laws don't work either". You see, it's not a matter of claiming to have seen an alien in one's back yard (I respect that). There is a pretty hard fact such as precisely measured movement of the Moon and other bodies, readily observable by whoever cares to look. And yet we have continued claims, without any further substantiation, that we need to toss basic science out. Period. End of story. That, somehow, I find as lacking courtesy.


[edit on 9-1-2008 by buddhasystem]

Okay, so I've been a good girl and done my penance by reading this fluffy thread. However, I am not sorry for what I said. Frankly it wasn't that bad and it was the truth. I thought we are supposed to be Denying Ignorance but I guess that doesn't apply to a certain member with gross over-generalizations, wild claims and absurd posts.

I'm done having a tantrum now and I will play nice.

Two Wrongs ...

Originally posted by Springer

Occasionally, a "good" member will have a bad day, a bit of "drunk" on, or simply go stark raving mad and act the fool (the D-Ego gone haywire). When this happens we certainly DO take into account the history of the member in question and act accordingly. Usually this sort of situation is resolved with a stern "talking to" and a warning.

Staff do try and be as understanding as possible in all situations ... (here it comes) but here are the T&C's:

Terms and Conditions of Use

If any member sees something they consider violates those T&C's then they can contact staff and inform us of any concerns. This is a very useful feature the correct use of which is seen by staff as an effort by the member to help ATS for which staff are appreciative.

This is always preferable to members taking any action themselves which may inadvertently add to the problem in the long run or cause the thread to deviate from the desired topic that everyone else participating wishes to discuss. No matter how bad you feel the provocation it is prudent to remember that we are all responsible for our own contributions.

Originally posted by Springer

The point of all this is...

The TAC (Terms and Conditions of use) specifically FORBID the insulting/name calling of a fellow member period. It does NOT say "it's Okay to insult a member who insults you first".

Jak

[edit on 19/5/08 by JAK]