Jews in 30s Germany=gays in the present day?

I've never heard this comparison made in the media or even with people who I've discussed this subject with....

but can anyone tell me if there is a difference in how Jewish people were treated in mid-30s Germany, and how are the conservative christians are treating people of alternative sexuality these days?

I know that people of alternative sexualities were just as much discriminated against by the Nazis back in the 30s, but I really wonder what a Bible-thumper might say if brought up this comparison. Frankly, I don't see much of a difference at all, and it makes me sick, frightened, and most importantly, angry.

It's not that hard to imagine that anyone who discriminates against gay people would also support some kind of a "Final Solution" to the "problem". I shudder and pray with all my might that we never find ourselves in a social situation where that could occur..

Doc

I guess a leader or maybe a polotician could use that as propaganda. In a city like San Fancisco a polotician might use that excuse if the population of Christians vs open gays were higher for the Christians. Personally though I'm not gay but I think gay pride is only to quit being made fun of and discriminated.

As far as using homosexuals for propoganda to change the state of the nation I can't see that working. They just don't instill enough fear.

In order to turn democracy/republic into a facist nation you have to use a known group of terrorists. In the day of Hitler the Jews were the biggest threat to the nation, all though not terrorists, he used them as terrorists.

In todays day of age if I were a secret dictator in a democracy I would use theocracy. Theocracy nations ARE the biggest threat to every nation IMO.
Now if they wernt actually a threat to the nation I would just make it look like they were... probably by staging some sort of catastrophic terrorist attack and frame it on a couple theocratical nations, then I would invade them and make everyone believe (by use of propaganda and the media) that terrorsit attacks were ineviatble and I would convince the people that they arn't safe.

Hmm this all sounds very familiar though. Oh well, it's gotta happen sometime.

Hmmm....In 30's Germany a Jew had to wear a star of David on his clothes to identify himself as Jewish. If Jew owned a business they had to have a star of david in the window to let everyone know it was a Jewish owned business.

I don't see that happening in the US today, or anywhere else for that matter. A gay person can stay in the closet and no one will question it. They can even be in the military if they won't ask or tell.

Don't take this wrong, I also agree that the gay population is by far the most discriminated against in the US today.

But not on the level of Nazi Germany against the Jews in the 30's.

wupy

As a lesbian, I can tell you that discrimination is alive and well agaist the LGBT community. However, I don't think it has risen to the level of violence that was committed against the Jews.

Gays and lesbians are at risk for some types of violent hate crimes and many have been beaten, killed, threatened, etc, and we still don't enjoy the same rights as the straight population, but I know that I would never want to trade places with those who were persecuted by the Nazis. I have it so much better than they did.

ABSOLUTLEY NOT. How many millions of gays do you see being mass murdered on a daily basis. This is a ridiculous claim, i believe those who are gay live in SIN. Yet i do not hate them or like them more then anyone else. I think what they do is disgusting, wrong, perverted, and a mental illness. Yet there sin is like anyother and can be FORGIVEN, I still have great love for these people and pray that they will turn from their wicked ways. Acceptance NEVER, it is for this reason that Nations fall.


I do however understand where this community is comming from as far as they way they are treated in public . I do not agree or even accept what they do, however I would never even want to associate with someone who would want to do violent things towards any humanbeings.

Just remeber YOU ARENT BORN THAT way and have a choice. Pray that God will take away your shameful lust and dwell within. Only then will you begin to fight through this.

PLEASE NO Ridicule of anyone and God bless.



[edit on 12-7-2006 by Scyman]

Originally posted by Scyman
I think what they do is disgusting, wrong, perverted, and a mental illness.

Mental illness? What kind of crackpot psychology degree did you buy over the Internet?

Originally posted by Scyman
Yet there sin is like anyother and can be FORGIVEN, I still have great love for these people and pray that they will turn from their wicked ways.

Wicked. Yes, the fact that two people love each other is wicked and evil. An awful, awful sin.

Originally posted by Scyman
I do however understand where this community is comming from as far as they way they are treated in public . I do not agree or even accept what they do, however I would never even want to associate with someone who would want to do violent things towards any humanbeings.

Yet you are more than willing to cast verbal rocks at homosexuals. It's ok to hurt people emotionally but not verbally. You know Hitler spoke out against the Jews for years before he actually started killing them...

Originally posted by Scyman
Just remeber YOU ARENT BORN THAT way and have a choice. Pray that God will take away your shameful lust and dwell within. Only then will you begin to fight through this.

And how on earth do you know that? Did you do intensive research and came to the undeniable conclusion that people are not born gay? People become gay because they are molested as a child or forced into living a live as an "outcast" of society, right? People willingly make the decision not to be accepted by society, right? My dear Sir... You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

Originally posted by Scyman
PLEASE NO Ridicule of anyone and God bless.

Oh, it's ok to point fingers, throw stones, make your own judgments and call people sinners (in all caps) that will burn in hell for all eternity, but it's a big no-no to ridicule? I don't know if you worship the same God that I worship, but my God likes the idea of loving a fellow human being and my God frowns upon those who judge. My God blessed me, even though I am gay. I wonder what you'll be saying to me when we walk side-by-side in the New Jerusalem?

Back to the topic... I'm with Wellwhatnow. Although there are the odd cases of violence against homosexuals, it's a long way from the genocide that occurred in Germany.

Hey, Doc - I agree that homosexuals are discriminated against and persecuted, but no, not to the extent, qualitatively or quantitatively, of that of the Jews in the 30s. Neither the government nor the church is rounding them up and killing them in a state sanctioned operation. However, I feel just as strongly about either form of persecution, so I can understand how you feel.

Originally posted by Scyman
i believe those who are gay live in SIN.

As does every person on the planet, right? So, they're really no different than anyone else, right?

Just remeber YOU ARENT BORN THAT way and have a choice.

Were you born that way (heterosexual, I'm assuming)? Do you have a choice?

Originally posted by Scyman
PLEASE NO Ridicule

At first, I thought you meant not to ridicule the gay people, but now I'm not so sure...

I think what they do is disgusting, wrong, perverted, and a mental illness. ... turn from their wicked ways. Acceptance NEVER, it is for this reason that Nations fall... take away your shameful lust

Do you mean don't ridicule you? After you TOTALLY ridiculed gay people like you did? That's too much!

[edit on 12-7-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

Ok, first of all you guys missed my entire point. I love these people as I do anyone else, I just believe they are living in sin. I am rebuking them in LOVE, sharing with them what the Bible has to say about their SIN. In the anticipation that they may reject their bodily lust and become holy in the blood of the Lamb.

As does every person on the planet, right? So, they're really no different than anyone else, right?

RIGHT. That however doesn't justify the act, they are still sinners in every sense, I am also. However my struggle with sin isn't in the Area of Homosexuality.

Oh, it's ok to point fingers, throw stones, make your own judgments and call people sinners (in all caps) that will burn in hell for all eternity, but it's a big no-no to ridicule? I don't know if you worship the same God that I worship, but my God likes the idea of loving a fellow human being and my God frowns upon those who judge. My God blessed me, even though I am gay. I wonder what you'll be saying to me when we walk side-by-side in the New Jerusalem?

Training someone in the way of Righteousness and giving them GODLY correction is NOT to throw stones. I do not make these judgements, that has already been done by the LORD. I am sharing with you his stance on your perverse act of disobedience. I am not condeming you to hell as you say I am, THIS IS NOT A SAVING POINT. IF you believe that the word of God is true, and that the Son of Man (Christ) came and died in place of you, then you are SAVED. I am however going to showing you the error of your ways, in the hope that you may turn from them. I understand God has blessed you in spite of the fact of your sin, all men are sinners and God blesses all men here on earth. Sinning is not to be condemend to the pit of fire, for that is why CHRIST came in our place. Yet, I am going to show you that you are LIVING in sin and NOT repenting from it as you should.

Genesis 1: "Be fruitfull and multiply" I understand not a direct order for all men, nonetheless this is the charge to humanity.

Genesis 19: This is the Story of Sodom & Gomorrah. The word "SODOMITE" used to mean a dweller of Sodom, it more recently was a legal term for criminial sexual acts. In this story angels vist Lots house, the people of the city want to lie with these beings. Not realizing they were angels, Lot in return offers his two young daughters. Asking if even this would satisfy the angry mob, it wouldnt. This played a major role in the destruction fo the two citys. "The Genesis passage is very clear, that the sin of Sodom that brought on the destruction of the city was indeed linked to homosexuality." R. Albert Mohler

Levitcus 18:22-23 "You shall not lie with a male as a woman. It is an abominaition. 'Nor shall you mate with any animal, to defile yourself with it. Nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it. It is a perversion."

In the same breath our LORD speaks of both beasteality and homosexuality condemning both. SO you can see it isn't I who has cast this judgement it is the LORD.

Now that was the Old testament, It loosk like im running close to the 4,000 character max, so lemme start the NT in my next post.

As you can see the Old Testament is very specific regarding the act of homosexuality. BUT that was under the rules of the old covenant some might argure so lets see what the New Testament has to say about it...

Romans 1 This is Paul writing to the Roamans, thus the name . Shortly after the the Asscention of our Lord to heaven

let start in verse...24 and finish at the end of the chapter.
" therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of GOD for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather then the Creator, who is blessed forever.AMEN. For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For EVEN THEIR WOMEN exchanged the natureal for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men commiting what IS SHAMEFUL, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a DEBASED MIND, to do those things which are not fitting: being filled with all unrighteousness, SEXUAL IMMORALITY, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of GOD, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disovedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who knowing the righteous judgement of GOD, THAT THOSE WHO PRACTICE SUCH THINGS are deserving of DEATH, not only do the same but also APPROVE of the THOSE WHO PRACTICE THEM."

As you can see make no mistake the bible is VERY VERY clear, on its stance towards homosexuality. There are other passages in the NT, but i dont feel like typing them all out. So GEMWOLF i will give them to you that you may open your own bible and read.

1 Corinthians 6:9
1 timothy 1: 9-10

MAtthew 19: 4-5 Speakes of why a man leaves his father and mother...and its not to live with another man.

How Gemwolf if you are truly saved can lead a life that you claim you do?
This isnt my quote the author is the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance.
I earlier stated that it wasn't a saving point, which its not. One can fall into this perverse act and turn from it. That is the hallmark of a Christian a turn from their sin, however gemwolf if you continue to live this way and profess Christianity....I doubt your original statement.

"The New Testament refers repeatedly and consistently to homosexuality as a forbidden, detestable practice deserving of punishment by God or mankind - one that leads directly to hell and eternal torture. These passages fully agree those of the Old Testament. A born-again Christian cannot be a non-celibate gay or lesbian. According to 1 Corinthians 6, if they were truly saved, then they would be cured of their homosexuality; they would be converted to heterosexuality."


So as you can see, I still Love these people. They are created in the Image of God, yet they need the Lord. And it is in LOVE that i rebuke them.

Originally posted by Scyman
I am going to show you that you are LIVING in sin and NOT repenting from it as you should.

NO, You are not. This thread is not about your religion or religious views, It is about the treatment of the Gay/Lesbian community today as compared to Nazi Germany in the 1930's.

Any further attempts to hijack this thread will be met with stronger actions.

Back on topic please.

mrwupy
ATS Moderator.

Now responses to all the great comments yall left me...

TO BH:

Were you born that way (heterosexual, I'm assuming)? Do you have a choice?

Yes, I was born this way as are all men. Do I have a choice, YES, I could give over to shamefull lusts and defile myself with another man. Do i choose not to, YES!

At first, I thought you meant not to ridicule the gay people, but now I'm not so sure...

Yes, of the Gay people. I dont care if you ridicule me I expect it. For if you see Christ in me in anyway you will hate me, for you hate Christ.

To GEMWOLF:

Yet you are more than willing to cast verbal rocks at homosexuals. It's ok to hurt people emotionally but not verbally. You know Hitler spoke out against the Jews for years before he actually started killing them...

As I have stated previously I am not casting rocks as to stone them for there acts. I speak of the double edged sword, the BIBLE only. I am not the one who judges eternity, I just tell of what was left here on earth for us to follow.



quote]
And how on earth do you know that? Did you do intensive research and came to the undeniable conclusion that people are not born gay? People become gay because they are molested as a child or forced into living a live as an "outcast" of society, right? People willingly make the decision not to be accepted by society, right? My dear Sir... You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?


For me to respond to this statement will just consume too much of my own time. So let me do it breifly...Look into non biased stats of those who are homosexual over 85% were abused as a child. This alone is enough to say you were not born homosexual. (I have spent hours upon hours of research in this topic) For now however this little bit is all i feel like typing on, maybe tomorrow ill post more. I mean its an on going debate today, each side has there own little facts. So I doubt if either one of us is going to persuade another in a different direction.

Oh, it's ok to point fingers, throw stones, make your own judgments and call people sinners (in all caps) that will burn in hell for all eternity, but it's a big no-no to ridicule? I don't know if you worship the same God that I worship, but my God likes the idea of loving a fellow human being and my God frowns upon those who judge. My God blessed me, even though I am gay. I wonder what you'll be saying to me when we walk side-by-side in the New Jerusalem?

I hope that you have the wisdom to see that i do not ridicule these people. I do however point my finger at them and then immediatly go to the WORD of OUR GOD for support in my claims. As one should do with any pointing of the finger. Like I said earlier im not judging you for eternity just letting you know what your book has to say on the subject.

You wanna know what i'll say if indeed we were to meet upon the new heaven or the new earth.
GLORY GLORY to the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY. For becuase of HIM and HIM ONLY we are both here together in paradise.

God Bless, and i hope that day comes

Originally posted by mrwupy

Originally posted by Scyman
I am going to show you that you are LIVING in sin and NOT repenting from it as you should.

NO, You are not. This thread is not about your religion or religious views, It is about the treatment of the Gay/Lesbian community today as compared to Nazi Germany in the 1930's.

Any further attempts to hijack this thread will be met with stronger actions.

Back on topic please.

mrwupy
ATS Moderator.

Sorry mr wupy I fail to see how i am "hijacking" this thread, I am only responding to the questions that were asked of me.
The Starter of this topic said " I really wonder what a Bible-thumper might say if brought up this comparison" And i am doing just that!

So, I defended my statements and agree this should get back on topic. However, do not delete ones post.... or as you put it " take stronger actions" for giving reference to back up there opinions. This is VERY ON TOPIC.
This is a topic concerning SOCIAL ISSUES, each of which one has his or hers own presubquistions. A topic of this nature needs at times for the debaters to state their ideologies. In order for the topic to carry on, do not allow someone to be violently attacked then allowed no rebutle.

with respect,
Scyman

[edit on 12-7-2006 by Scyman]

To really put the original question in perspective, lets look at some hard numbers.

I did a presentation on hate crimes in November of last year, and at that time about 1 gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgendered/queer person is killed per month (national wide in the US) according to a representative of Lambda Legal, a legal firm that often represents the GLBTQ community.

A website I found

number of dead

estimates that about 5,596,049 people were killed during the holocaust (of course not all of them were Jewish, but I couldn’t find what looked to be a reliable breakdown of the numbers of victims).

According to this site

holocaust chronology

the holocaust, at worst, lasted from about 1933 until 1945, or around 144 months.

This means that over 38,000 people would have died (on average) per month.

One gay person per month versus 38,000 people per month – there is no comparison.

There is simply no way that the amount of violence and discrimination presently being shown to the GLBTQ community could come anywhere near the violence that was enacted during the holocaust.

There is no doubt that there are those who might be happy to see every single gay person dead. There are probably many who would delight in the actual killing. However, the above numbers really tell the story of what has taken place.

The Holocaust, if by that you mean the Einsattzgruppen and the death camps, has no bearing on this thread topic, which specifically referred to the way Jews were treated in Nazi Germany in the 1930s. The mass-murder of Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, and others on the kill list did not begin until the 1940s, and occurred entirely in occupied territory to the east, not in Germany itself.

Before all that, though, Jews, while not slaughtered en masse, were subject to harsh, restrictive measures perhaps worse than the Jim Crow laws of the pre-Civil Rights South against black people, let alone the unofficial cultural discrimination that afflicts gay people today.

en.wikipedia.org...

Currently, no state, nor the United States, denies gay people citizenship. On that point alone, Nazi Germany was worse.

Originally posted by Scyman

Sorry mr wupy I fail to see how i am "hijacking" this thread, I am only responding to the questions that were asked of me.
The Starter of this topic said " I really wonder what a Bible-thumper might say if brought up this comparison" And i am doing just that!

You are absolutely right and I am sorry for having jumped to the wrong conclusion here. A total brain fart on my behalf and I hope you will forgive me.

wupy

With Gay Spirits

I would just like to add that all points of view are welcome here, as long as they are offered in the spirit of mutual respect for differing opinions.

Everybody has a reason for thinking the way they do, and by talking about the issues, maybe we can understand each other a little better -- and get along a little better.

Is what I'm sayin'.

Originally posted by mrwupy


You are absolutely right and I am sorry for having jumped to the wrong conclusion here. A total brain fart on my behalf and I hope you will forgive me.

wupy

Hey, no problem! Thanks for spending time moderating the boards, i know it can be tedious at times. Especially tough here at ATS i imagine.



Wellwhatnow thanks for the info, I was wonedering however...
The jews were murdered just for being jews. Is every homosexual who is killed, kiled just fore being gay? Either way I agree no comparisson.

Originally posted by Scyman
Is every homosexual who is killed, kiled just fore being gay?

Yes. The one per month average was based on hate crimes alone, although not every state has a hate crimes bill and therefore not every state records hate crime statistics.

I must stress that it was an estimate only, and not all the victims were intentionally murdered. Some die from injuries received when an attacker only meant to wound or beat them, so the average is not limited to intentional homicides either.

Also, as another poster pointed out, it may have nothing to do with the thread at all and is therefore off topic. None the less, I thought it a rather interesting comparison.

The second link I posted earlier has quite a detailed chronology of events that includes information on the less drastic measures taken against the Jews in the 30s. That information would probably make a better, on topic comparison.

Humm, I guess that also wouldn't include attempted murders interesting. You don't happen to know a website that lists the states with hate crime laws do you?
All murder is hate, but I wonder if you would need a witness to confirm if the person was actually killed just for being gay.



[edit on 14-7-2006 by Scyman]