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A New Police Force for a New Country

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posted on Jul, 15 2006 @ 01:19 PM
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"The military have already told us that their disclosures will contain misinformation...."


REPLY: So you assume that ALL of it is misinformation?


From an Iraqi news outlet:


An Iraqi female police station tops the list of the 13 active construction and planned projects by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Gulf Region South District (GRS) in Najaf.

The female police facility will be used to train female cadets to properly search other females at the many checkpoints and security stops throughout Iraq, according to Art Maestas, police station project manager. The contract for the facility is expected to be awarded by the middle of July and carries a price tag of about $150,000. The women will train at the site.

Three other police station projects will be under construction by the middle of July and are in Waf’a and Najaf city. Two are police stations and one will be a headquarters building.


[link] www.portaliraq.com...

Is mis-information similar to not providing info at all?:

What the media have reported about the war:

# About 3.5 hours of coverage over a three week period of military misconduct.

# 52 minutes over five years of the 20 highest recognized and rewarded for bravery U.S. soldiers. (14 of them have gone unmentioned by ABC, CBS and NBC.) But they WERE covered by Fox........

Does the media or government withhold info, or give false info the the people and, if so, why would they do it:

As Jack Nicholson said in that movie: "..... because you can't handle the truth." (Or don't want to hear it).

[edit on 15-7-2006 by zappafan1]




posted on Jul, 15 2006 @ 02:19 PM
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Originally posted by zappafan1
Why is it an "unfortunate" thread?
[link] www.abovetopsecret.com...


[edit on 15-7-2006 by zappafan1]


No, no. The thread isn't unfortunate. It was unfortunate that it would have been improper to use this thread for the same purpose.


df1

posted on Jul, 15 2006 @ 02:33 PM
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Contrary to the "sugar & spice" being presented at the top of this thread, the following articles tell a different story which should raise grave concerns about the quality of people being trained to be iraqi police officers.


Brutality & Corruption Rampant In Iraq's Police Force
BAGHDAD, Iraq // Brutality and corruption are rampant in Iraq's police force, with abuses including the rape of female prisoners, the release of terrorism suspects in exchange for bribes, assassinations of police officers and participation in insurgent bombings, according to confidential Iraqi government documents detailing more than 400 police corruption investigations.

A recent assessment by State Department police training contractors underscores the investigative documents, concluding that strong paramilitary and insurgent influences within the force and endemic corruption have undermined public confidence in the government.



Kuwait News Agency
raq's Islamic Party accuses Iraqi police of murdering Muslim cleric

BAGHDAD, July 8 (KUNA) -- Iraq's Islamic Party claimed Saturday that the Iraqi police murdered a Muslim cleric on a security checkpoint in southern Iraq.

A statement by the party said the police killed the preacher of Mahmoudya Grand Mosque Saeed Al-Sammarai while was stopping at a security checkpoint.


The intent of the spin presented by the military source is not to provide disinformation to anyone in iraq as the people in iraq know first hand about the atrocities and corruption within their police, thus the misinformation must be targeting the american public at large.
.



posted on Jul, 15 2006 @ 03:35 PM
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All that needs to be said is once again, if you look for the bad, that is all you will see.

Ever hear of New Orleans? During the 1970's and early 80's? Corruption gone amok!!! Murders by the police, drug dealing etc. Did that make all of us bad cops? NO...

Yet you could be sitting over there picking out little snips of stories and make all of the police here in the U.S. out to be horrible monsters as well.

It's a no brainer and requires no effort on your part at all.

It is so easy to armchair quarterback those brave men and women that are volunteering to get in the Iraq Police uniform and risk their lives to help a spouting new country.

It is irrelevant, hurtful and absolutely applies the wrong picture of what is happening.

Semper


df1

posted on Jul, 15 2006 @ 05:08 PM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
Ever hear of New Orleans? During the 1970's and early 80's?

Comparing 70s & 80s police corruption in new orleans to present day iraq is a real stretch of the imagination.



picking out little snips of stories...

It's a no brainer and requires no effort on your part at all.

You are diminishing my efforts while embellishing your own. What did you do differently that required so much brain power and a herculean amount of effort on your part?



It is so easy to armchair quarterback those brave men and women that are volunteering to get in the Iraq Police uniform and risk their lives to help a spouting new country.

My commentary is an indictment of the misinformation used by our government in its attempt to deceive the american public into supporting the continued occupation of iraq. As for the brave men & women who risk their lives, the government propogating lies about the situation is of no service to those people. If the government is allowed to pretend that everything is just swell then none of the problems these brave men & women face daily will ever be corrected and this puts both americans and iraqis at greater risk.
.



posted on Jul, 15 2006 @ 10:20 PM
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Originally posted by df1

The intent of the spin presented by the military source is not to provide disinformation to anyone in iraq as the people in iraq know first hand about the atrocities and corruption within their police, thus the misinformation must be targeting the american public at large.


The intent of the reports are to countermine the under-reporting by mainstream news who desperately want the current adminstration to fail. They (the media) could give to rocks and a piece of moss for what happens to the Iraqi people. The worse for them, the better for the media.

And I don't think anyone here has claimed that there was no corruption there. Helloooo. They just left decades of rule from a despotic nut. Do you think our concepts of law and justice just spring naturally from the Baathists who I'm sure ended up with some of the jobs? It has been accurately reported that in some areas, people are joining the police to take part in the graft. But again, this is an organization starting from square one.

Like I said before, the religious turmoil is not of our making. The Sunni were repressing the majority Shia, and now there is some payback. The murder of the cleric is a religious issue. Moktada al-Sadr is a "cleric" and I don't personally feel that he deserves the safety that has been afforded him since he decided to be "good".



posted on Jul, 16 2006 @ 06:36 AM
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df1


Comparing 70s & 80s police corruption in new orleans to present day iraq is a real stretch of the imagination.


Why? Everything that you are saying is the "mainstay" of what is happening over there, has happened here in one form or another. (Referencing the police force)
So why is that any stretch at all?


You are diminishing my efforts while embellishing your own. What did you do differently that required so much brain power and a herculean amount of effort on your part?


Perhaps it is the sifting through all the regular news stories and refusing to swallow the diatribe that we are fed each and everyday. Perhaps it is having met a few of those very same Iraqi Police Officers and personally knowing a few of the civilian contractors that are over there teaching them. Perhaps it is just that I refuse to just click a link and say "WOW! Look how bad it is over there!"
Not trying to diminish anyone's efforts, but using the major news outlets when it suits your purpose, ie iraq police are evil, and then stating the news sources are being manipulated by the military in other posts, brings no credibility to an argument.
I prefer to read articles actually written by the soldiers, for the soldiers.

As for your last statement, are you aware that YOU can contact those soldiers yourself and ask them. THEY will give you the straight "skinny" I assure you.
Here are some initial Links to do that.

www.anysoldier.com...
anyservicemember.navy.mil...

messages@estripes.com

Be advised these are all going to be checked for content before they reach a soldier, so if you want them to reach their goal, I would not send anything inflammatory.

Semper


df1

posted on Jul, 16 2006 @ 02:02 PM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
So why is that any stretch at all?

Your not knowing the answer causes me to doubt your stated credentials.



Perhaps... Perhaps... Perhaps...

Whatever.



news sources are being manipulated by the military

Do you think that is false?



I prefer to read articles actually written by the soldiers, for the soldiers.

I prefer a diversity of opinion in what I read.

Now back to the topic hand. Do you agree that telling the truth about the cops in iraq is of greater benefit to the iraqi police force than spinning a false feel good story?

I posted this before. Tell me how I have it wrong.


Originally posted by df1
My commentary is an indictment of the misinformation used by our government in its attempt to deceive the american public into supporting the continued occupation of iraq. As for the brave men & women who risk their lives, the government propogating lies about the situation is of no service to those people. If the government is allowed to pretend that everything is just swell then none of the problems these brave men & women face daily will ever be corrected and this puts both americans and iraqis at greater risk.


The only people that benefit from misrepresenting the truth about the iraqi police to the american people are the politicans, not the iraqis and certainly not any american soldiers.



[edit on 16-7-2006 by df1]



posted on Jul, 16 2006 @ 04:33 PM
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And that is the rub...

You are spinning a false image of what is going on over there to fit into whatever agenda it is you are trying to espouse.

Reading your past contributions, I would "guess" it is politically motivated.

Your desire for a diversity of opinion combined with the refusal to believe those that have been and are there is proof that facts mean nothing to you.

You may continue to "troll" this thread and attempt the high jack of it all you wish. It is abundantly clear that you are not so interested in the subject matter as the derailing of the members that are actually contributing, so as my part, you will be ignored.

I truly wish that you could have contributed to this thread as I believe that you may at one time have had something to contribute. This however did not turn out to be the case.

Semper



posted on Jul, 16 2006 @ 04:46 PM
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And more from the front.



An Iraqi policeman pulls security from one of the guard towers built around the Joint
Communication Center’s perimeter in Hawija, Iraq, July 11. The facility, which was recently renovated, is a coordination center for the civil defense and medical personnel in the area.




What a place to police!!
Their hearts are definitely in their work.

Semper



posted on Jul, 17 2006 @ 05:27 PM
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Semperfortis thank you for creating this thread.

I happen to agree with every argument you've made so far. There is far too much bad news coming out of Iraq, and very little (if any) good news ever makes in onto the television set. This of course does not mean that good news is scarce, it just means that the media loves to focus 90% (in my opinion) of it's efforts on the bad.
Where do I get my 90%? Just from watching the news! Notice that about 90% of everything being reported on any news station is Crime, and maybe they'll fill time with one or two uplifting/neutral stories. If I were to try and learn about the life in America through the news, I'd think the place was filled with murderers, thieves, sex-offenders, liars, and crooked business practices!

Of course, since I live in the U.S. I know better! I know there are many wonderful things going on around me. There are people who volunteer to help the sick and homeless. There are people donating money to natural disaster victims. There are good cops who protect us from criminals. There are people who donate their time and effort to help build free housing for those who need it. There are people who donate their organs for others, and those who sacrifice their own lives for the well-being of others. There is so much good going on, yet rarely do we hear about it, unless (as someone else in this thread already mentioned) the rescue is done by a dog, or lord knows what. These are thousands, if not millions of acts gone unmentioned. Don't tell me there isn't enough time in the news-cast for something like that. If they have time to go report on things like 'a snake with two heads', there's time to report on a more worthy act of kindness. Don't get me wrong, sometimes they get me to watch the news by announcing something that unimportant, but I simply believe the 'news' should contain more important things.

There are people in this thread arguying that the paper Semperfortis presented is all propaganda, and I happen to disagree with them for the most part. All this newspaper does is focus on the 'good' things going on, instead of focusing on the 'bad' things. There are thousands of papers all over the world who love to do nothing except report bad news. It is refreshing that at least a few papers here and there try to present a different perspective. If focusing on the good is propaganda, then focusing on the bad is just as much propaganda. A balanced news source would focus equally on the good and bad. If a paper chooses to not report both sides, in my honest opinion they have an agenda. It does not mean they are reporting lies, it just means they choose to leave out information that may lead us to make up our own minds on any situation, including Iraq.

I don't think Semperfortis was trying to make the Iraq situation seem as if nothing were wrong, I think Semperfortis was attempting to give us a different perspective, and show us that the situation is not all 'bad'. It may serve as a reminder as to what it is many of those soldiers went there to do. When the Americans fought the English to gain their independence, many had to die to break free from their opressors. The American Civil war had many casualties on both sides, yet slaves were freed as a result. WW II. was a messy business, yet many Jews were rescued from certain death. It is a war. Of course there will be casualties, of course there will be soldiers from both sides who break the law, of course there will be explosions and misery,.... BUT...... good things come from it as well. We must not ignore that fact, and that's the fact that daily news broadcasts and newspapers ignore intentionally, because if there was no bloodshed, and nothing to worry about, why the hell would you buy their papers or watch their programs to decide whether you should be preparing yourself for doom? They love to scare you into watching and reading their news. That's their business.

The Iraq war has many purposes (those known, and not known to us). Good AND bad things will come from it. If you expected this to be a clean, short, bloodless fight, you may not entirely be familiar with the realities of war. The Iraqi people have a long way to go. Never has democracy and freedom taken a couple, or even a few years to perfect itself. It takes decades! I'll use my home country as an example; Czechoslovakia fortunately broke free of Communism without the need for bloodshed. It was the Velvet Revolution. That happened in 1989. In 1993 the Czechs and Slovaks separated into two different Republics (once again peacefully), yet both countries continue to struggle! They're getting better at it, but it has already been 13 years, and that was without a war, and without radicals to interfere in the process! If you ask most people, they will say that being free from Communism is wonderful. The few others may say they liked Communism better, because the transition from Communism to Democracy took a toll on their lifestyle and benefits. Once again, good and bad things stemmed from it. Just an example.
End of Rant.



posted on Jul, 17 2006 @ 09:31 PM
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2many,
You get the GOLD cupie doll!!!

GREAT Post...


Your comments are well received and I am thankful that you get it.

Semper



posted on Jul, 17 2006 @ 10:40 PM
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Originally posted by Arcane Demesne
How soon do you think this new police force will become corrupt and accept the bribings of future warlords? After all, that place is blown to hell. The US can't even control warlords (Gang development after Katrina).


You're right. Muslim nations are a lost cause. Kill them all.

Have you really been there to form your own opinion about it being blown to hell or are you just full of hot air?



posted on Jul, 18 2006 @ 12:57 AM
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Perhaps if we stopping looking at our actions in terms of their long term success, or short term failure we can really begin to note the true progress, or lack of progress that is being made.I served in Iraq during Operation Enduring Freedom and was exposed to many member of the soo called Iraqi defense force as well as many of the Police. I found a stark difference between the two.
The police were men who probably had been in those post's during the time before the U.S. invasion of Iraq and many while I would'nt label them overtly brave or macho by our standards, I must say that they were helpful and had a real concern for the safety of their families, citizens and the families they were protecting. It must also be noted that they were doing a job that they were mostly not equipped to do. For those men that i saw i must take my hat off to them.
This soo called Iraqi Army we are training on the other hand is a totally different animal. Most that I met were there simply to feed themselves and get medical attention. ( DON'T GET ME WRONG, I CAN UNDERSTAND) but that does not keep in line with the ideals and goals that a military orginization must uphold.I can recall at least two instances when we came under hostile fire and rather than dig in and fight they either turned and ran, or jumped ship and turned on us!!
And while i don't like that, i understand it as well. The fact is...we are expecting far more than is possible for these people to deliver. With the insurgency and lack of infistructure there is no way a competent police or military force can be put in place any time soon. According to what i've read in many manuals it may take up to 10 years of training to release a competent fighting force into the battle field, and that is assuming that there is not currently a war being fought in the midst of all this.
The American citizens do not have the patience and I fear, that the world does not have the luxury of that much time. And our administration is sending us a missleading message that it can/ will be ready sooner. As i see it, things are getting worse and not better soo unfortunatly unless we find and recruite some Iraqi DIRTY HARRY'S real soon.....This new police force and this new country is gonna be on the shelf for far too long.



posted on Jul, 18 2006 @ 05:13 AM
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After reading though all the good post in this thread, many of you have made the point, we only get bad news from iraq and the occasinonal feel good story.

As we all know in the world of the TV news the rating war take priority over everything, more ratings mean more advertisng revenue. So this is the reaso why we only get the bad news from iraq or anywhere else, and the feel good story is always and after though (" and now a lighter note, today in hicksville, USA, joe hillbilly dogs, rasied the alarm after joe shot his self in the leg whilst out hunting and now the sport") something to make you think ahh the world isnt so bad after all.

Now to the point at hand, can iraq have a proper police force, like the western world. to train a police force isnt the easiest task even in peace time. so i take my hat off to the few iraqis will the balls to stand in line to sign up and run the risk of being blown up or kidnapped for standing in line.

Of course the insurgence have infultraited the police force, why not, what better way to get intel as when the local warlord or terriost cell is about to be raided they can pass on word of what is about to happen and guess what the police either find nothing or walk into a ambush.

Look at what happen in Basra when 2 SAS troopers were arrested after refusing to idenifty themselves to a police check point. they were handed over to the local milta and the brits stormed the local jail to find them, they werent in the jail, but in a house next door.

Given time and training, iraq may have a reconised police force, but untill iraq is a stable country which looks a long way off the US and UK will need to be there supporting the iraq police force and helping them and trying to show them that there is a better way, you are always going to get corrupt police officers willing to turn a blind eye to things but there will come a time when they are the minority not the majority as the iraqi people will get fed up and demand more.



posted on Jul, 18 2006 @ 12:53 PM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
2many,
You get the GOLD cupie doll!!!

GREAT Post...


Your comments are well received and I am thankful that you get it.

Semper


Well thank you.
I have no idea what a 'GOLD cupie doll' is, but it sounds like a good thing!


Last night I happened to watch the local news more attentively just to prove to myself that I wasn't 'full of it'.

I counted a total of 26 reports on bad news (a bit less than half of those were somewhat informative/necessary, but still bad), 3 reports of neutral news (each had a good and bad side to it) 5 reports of good/uplifting news, 1 report on 'who the hell cares?!' news (i.e. some minor celebrity singer got a record contract or something to that effect) they repeated the weather 4 times within one hour (each time wasting about 2 minutes of the program), repeated one 'bad news' report for no good reason (wasted another 2 minutes on that), and spent five minutes on sports. So,...that's an example of local news for ya. If I were to study news programs on different channels every day, I'm sure I'd come up with numbers similar to these, though I'm not entirely sure what that proves.


df1

posted on Jul, 18 2006 @ 01:28 PM
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Originally posted by 2manyquestions
I counted a total of 26 reports on bad news...

Perhaps the reason that all of the news reports out of iraq are bad is that nothing good is happening in iraq that merits being reported. Its quite hard for a reasonable person to believe the fairy tale being being spun by the goernment when all other evidence points to the contrary.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease. It is imperative for the problems with the iraqi police force to be indentified otherwise those problems will not get fixxed. The misinformation from our government may make you feel good and proud to be an american, but it is doesnt do a damn thing for the citizens of iraq, honorable iraqi police personnel or for the american troops that must work with the iraqi police.
.



posted on Jul, 18 2006 @ 01:42 PM
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Originally posted by df1
It is imperative for the problems with the iraqi police force to be indentified otherwise those problems will not get fixxed.


I don't think anyone would disagree with you. That is a valid point. That applies to law enforcement in the US just as it makes good business sense. But the idea, I think, of this thread was to point out that problems are getting fixed, and progress is being made. You just flat out reject any evidence that this may be so.


df1

posted on Jul, 18 2006 @ 02:11 PM
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Originally posted by hogtie
But the idea, I think, of this thread was to point out that problems are getting fixed, and progress is being made.

Imho the links Ive provided in previous posts refute that the problems are getting fixxed.



You just flat out reject any evidence that this may be so.

The us military has stated that they would use misinformation. This should send up red flags with big yellow question marks to any reasonable evaluating evidence provided the military. Also I think that the poster starting this thread is being dishonest in representing the media as being the enemy of the occupation when in fact the access to information is being greatly restricted to embedded reporters.



Embedded Reporters
In an interesting interview published this week in Foreign Policy, Newsweek's Rod Nordland spoke about the difficulties of reporting from Iraq. He said that the Bush Administration has been largely successful in managing the news “to the extent that most Americans are not aware of just how dire it is and how little progress has been made” and revealed that some embedded reporters “have been blacklisted because the military wasn’t happy with [their] work.”



posted on Jul, 18 2006 @ 02:22 PM
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Originally posted by df1

The us military has stated that they would use misinformation. This should send up red flags with big yellow question marks to any reasonable evaluating evidence provided the military. Also I think that the poster starting this thread is being dishonest in representing the media as being the enemy of the occupation when in fact the access to information is being greatly restricted to embedded reporters.


Who do you trust more? Someone that says that they never lie, or someone who says that they do? And for a good reason, no less. Disinformation is a tool of war, and the hope is that the enemy can't tell the truth from fiction... ... ... ... ...

If you are concerned about the media's access, you'd have gone crazy in every war prior to this. No free press has ever been given such open access to military operations.




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