Hello, ConspiracyNut23. It's good to talk with you again.

You say 'many advertisers seems to think [the effect of subliminal advertising is] real and have used it or are still using it.' Well, you'll note that the dates in the external source you quoted are all pretty ancient -- the FCC's attempt to discourage the use of subliminal advertising dates back to 1974. Probably people back then still thought subliminal advertising really worked. Nobody in the communications business thinks that any more. I don't doubt that part of the reason why we've changed our minds is that people tried it and found out for themselves that it did not work.

I read Subliminal Seduction in 1985, at which time I was a senior creative staffer at a major international ad agency (you would recognize its name). The book was being passed round the office as a joke. We figured Wilson Key must have a pathetically dirty mind if he could descry naked girls, private parts, the face of the Devil, Satanic ritual objects and so on in what -- we could so plainly see -- were perfectly ordinary artefacts of lighting, depth-of-field discrepancies, accidental printing effects and so forth.

This is the truth -- though I accept that the background I've just confessed to may render my testimony suspect in your eyes. Nevertheless, I solemnly affirm that, in the quarter-century I've spent working in advertising and related fields, I have never once been shown or taught, nor have I ever applied, a subliminal technique. Neither have I ever seen such a technique used by someone else, heard anyone tell me they'd used one, heard of one being used by a third party or, in fact, ever heard a single little smidgen of a scintilla of a hint of a confession that such techniques were used by anybody, anywhere in the world of advertising.

I've worked in many different countries, in partnership with colleagues from every inhabited continent. I've attended innumerable professional workshops, seminars, conferences and the like. I've had the pleasure and privilege of talking more hours of shop than I can count with senior admen from New York, Chicago and London -- the three world capitals of advertising, at least in the old days. I've done work for Coca-Cola, widely regarded as the world's biggest brand, and for dozens of other globe-straddling brands whose products you'll find in your own home and those of your friends. I've watched TV commercials for these brands, frame after frozen, tedious frame, editing them to adapt to some new market. Nary a sub-lim did I see. Never in all my days in the so-called second-oldest profession did I come across a single subliminal ad, message or image. Nowt. Nehi. Nix. Nada.

A final point: the images on the Subliminal Sex site you linked to are almost certainly screen-captures from the final frames of kosher TV commercials. Most of them are obvious closing frames, or 'pack shots' as we call them in the jargon. The site -- and the book it's hawking -- are very clearly untrustworthy; just read through the dodgy testimonials with which the site is peppered and you will see that at once.

There: that just about exhausts the ammunition in my locker. If anyone still wants to insist that I'm wrong, that I'm a forktongued agent of International Capital or simply deluded, that's their privilege. I'm not debating this any more; one thing a life in advertising teaches you is that changing people's minds, hard enough to do in conversation face to face, is almost impossible at a distance. That's the real dirty secret of advertising -- the fact that it doesn't actually work very well.

My salutations to all on this thread; I will continue to monitor it, but I don't think I've much to add to what I've posted already. Excelsior!

[edit on 25-8-2006 by Astyanax]

Look at almost any magazine liquor advert with a high-ball glass filled with ice cubes. The "lighting" on the ice cubes will reveal many images. I guess they are not really subliminal... they are pretty obvious. Something to pass the time when at the doctors office or dentists waiting room, though.

Originally posted by Astyanax
That's the real dirty secret of advertising -- the fact that it doesn't actually work very well.

This is going off topic a tad but...

[hysterics]

Why on EARTH do they keep advertising at us near constantly if it DOESNT WORK!?!? WHY WHY WHY!?

[/hysterics]

Becuase TPTB want to drive us insane? To mess with our heads? If ads dont work, or rarely work then there must be another reason for the huge amount we have to put up with in our daily lives.

Tell me Astyanax, are you responsible for that Lombard Direct advert?

Perhaps these ads ARE effective on a very small, yet incrementally valuable percentage of people, and most don't realize it (isn't that the whole point of subliminal adv?).

Originally posted by Dae
[hysterics]

Why on EARTH do they keep advertising at us near constantly if it DOESNT WORK!?!? WHY WHY WHY!?

[/hysterics]

I didn't say advertising doesn't work, Dae. I said it doesn't work very well.

Your outburst is actually evidence of this.

Here are two oft-repeated sayings of the advertising and marketing community.

"I don't know if last year's advertising worked for us, but I'm sure the last twenty years' advertising has worked."

That statement, or a paraphrase of it, is attributed to Lord Lever, the founder of what is now the Unilever Group. It has also been attributed to a lot of other people.

"Fifty percent of our advertising works, fifty percent doesn't. The trouble is, we can't tell which fifty percent is which."

That one gets attributed to just about everyone.

Advertising is mass communications -- the bluntest of blunt instruments. It is targeted at people the advertiser doesn't know, but has to make assumptions about in order to communicate with them at all. All too often, the advertiser gets his assumptions wrong. Then the ad fails in its intended effect and is perceived as boring, idiotic, hectoring, repetitive or dishonest instead.

Then there's the question of targeting. Since it is impossible to target consumers accurately through the mass media, most ads are seen or heard by legions of people who neither need nor want the product or service being advertised. These people are very likely to perceive the ad as distracting or annoying.

Next time you see a really irritating ad, console yourself with the thought that the person who paid for it has wasted rather a lot of money. You'll be amazed at how much better this will make you feel.

And no, I'm not responsible for Lombard Direct.

I always thought the "subliminal" was in reference to the fact that over time, with countless repitions of the same material, the message becomes part of the subconscious mind.

Slogans, music, imagery, etc...become encoded in the memory - and when you're out shopping for items, these constant repeated images/sounds come to the forefront of your mind - like the "comfort of an old friend".

Some people focus more on the background images (the beautiful room, the mountain stream, etc...) while others focus on the music or the spoken message.

Either way, whatever your preference is - some portion of the combined whole will take root in your mind - and influence thusly.

[edit on 27-8-2006 by GENERAL EYES]

Originally posted by Astyanax

Next time you see a really irritating ad, console yourself with the thought that the person who paid for it has wasted rather a lot of money. You'll be amazed at how much better this will make you feel.

Even a really irritating, annoying or stupid ad is effective, and maybe even more so since you're more likely to remember it. I wouldn't say its a waste of money by any means

Originally posted by warpboost
Even a really irritating, annoying or stupid ad is effective, and maybe even more so since you're more likely to remember it. I wouldn't say its a waste of money by any means

Case in point, "Head On, apply directly to your forehead, Head on, apply directly to your forehead, Head On..."

Originally posted by GENERAL EYES
I always thought the "subliminal" was in reference to the fact that over time, with countless repitions of the same material, the message becomes part of the subconscious mind.

Slogans, music, imagery, etc...become encoded in the memory - and when you're out shopping for items, these constant repeated images/sounds come to the forefront of your mind - like the "comfort of an old friend".

Some people focus more on the background images (the beautiful room, the mountain stream, etc...) while others focus on the music or the spoken message.

Either way, whatever your preference is - some portion of the combined whole will take root in your mind - and influence thusly.

[edit on 27-8-2006 by GENERAL EYES]

That is true to a certain extent. What you are referring to is branding. It's the look, sound and feel of an ad that in essence becomes a hallmark of what that brand is all about. A great example of this is the Marlborough Man. The wide open country. The trademark silhoutte. The John Waynesque every man's man. Then, of course, there's the logo. You add all of these together and you get a brand experience.

BTW, I attended a local ad federation meeting recently. Art directors, copywriters, creative geniuses... Anyway, after a few rounds everyone at the table was pretty happy. I posed a simple question to my colleuges: "Have any of you idiots ever placed any subliminal messages in your work?" After the laughter died down, the consensus was an undesputable "NO!" Everyone values their jobs and reputations. Besides subliminal ads are considered an industry joke. No one takes it seriously!

Originally posted by warpboost
Even a really irritating, annoying or stupid ad is effective, and maybe even more so since you're more likely to remember it.

Yes, but would it make you more likely to buy the product advertised?

The idea that "intrusive" advertising (which, incidentally, is the very opposite of subliminal) sells is a very old one. It goes back to the 1950s. It may have been true then, when most product categories were occupied by a handful of contenders. Nowadays, when the range of choice in any category is wide, you're more likely to avoid the product that annoyed you and pick up one of its competitors instead.

Whatever Iced tea commercial that had the folks falling back into the pool made me really thirsty. Liption or Nestea... Dunno. That advertising did not work.

Anyhow. This thread is really off topic.

The original post asked whether you thought the cigarette guy was holding a wanker... or any additional examples. I vote "wanker". looks pretty obvious to me. Even if lighting produced the effect, any competent graphics person would 86 the wanker, unless they were directed otherwise. These pictures do go through extreme scrutiny, do they not?

I have a good subliminal advertising story to share. I was in the movie theater with my boyfriend and we were watching the advertisements before the movie started. A particular ad appeared showing a woman in a bathing suit walking in the shallow water at the beach and advertised a local Plastic Surgery clinic. While this image was displayed, I happened to rest my head on my boyfriend's shoulder so I was viewing the advertisement sideways. Suddenly I could easily see in the background (the sky above the horizon) the word "BEAUTIFUL". I was amazed at what I saw and so the next time the advertisement cycled, my boyfriend tilted his head down to the right and saw it as well. This was sometime in 1998 or 99 in Tampa, Florida.