Weapons Meet WMD Criteria

Good read Ceci,

Let me read all that you posted and I'll get back to you shortly, OK?

Gotta go make the donuts...

Semper

Thanks, Semper!

Don't burn them!

500 rusty decaying shells huh?

How did they present a "clear and present threat to the United States of America"?

Are these the shells that Rumsfeld referred to when he told us he knew where they were?

Are these what Blair sold the British as being available to be depolyed in 45 minutes against the UK?

If they were available, and active to use, why didn't they get used? Saddam Hussein was no angel. I'd have thought he'd have thrown everything at the incoming US forces. According to all the profiles I've seen, he obviously didn't give a damn about his own people, so there wouldn't have been a problem firing them off.

And on that subject, why didn't Israel cop a few as well? The precendent had already been set in 1991 hadn't it?.

Or is it just that these are remnants of the Iran/Iraq war bought forward in attempted "justification"?

I see no bio labs. I see no nuclear weapons. I see no ICBM's. I see no "clear and present danger" to anything/anyone apart from the oil fields.

Originally posted by semperfortis
Good read Ceci,

Let me read all that you posted and I'll get back to you shortly, OK?

Gotta go make the donuts...

Semper

I like lemon filled and raspberry krispy cremes...thanks semper.

Originally posted by ceci2006
..........................
The sky is green. You should feel proud of yourself.

You better keep running Forrest, the Death Star is right on top of you... is that why you ran all the way to Canada?...

all your scarasm doesn't contribute one bit to this thread. and you have the termity to complain about me. typical bully behaviour.

Here is what the second in command of Iraq's Air force has to say about wmd in Iraq....

General Georges Hormiz Sada (Arabic:كوركيس هرمز ساده )(aka Gewargis or George Hormis) (born ?1939) is an author and member of the current Iraqi government as well as a member of the former government under Saddam Hussein's Regime .

Sada was born to a Assyrian family [1] in Northern Iraq, that belonged to the Chaldean Catholic Church. In 1959 he graduated from the Iraqi Air Academy, and went to study overseas in Britain, the USSR and the United States. Through 1964-1965 he studied piloting in Texas, and in July 1968, when Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr came to power, Sada began serving in the Air Force.

He officially retired in 1986 as a 2-star general, after going through "born-again Christian" phase, but was called back to active service for the 1990 invasion of Kuwait. He claims that he was discharged and imprisoned on February 5, 1991, for refusing to execute POWs and has not been employed in any official capacity in Iraq since then.

After the 2003 Invasion of Iraq, Sada sided with the US-led government, and served as spokesman for the interim leader Iyad Allawi, and was appointed as National Security Advisor.

In August 2004 Sada announced that he would be signing a bill to introduce the death penalty for those "threatening national security".[2]

He serves as the Senior Warden of the St. Georges Anglican Church and as the President of the National Presbyterian Church, both in Baghdad. The former President of the Evangelical Churches of Iraq, Sada is also chairman of the Assembly of Iraqi Evangelical Presbyterian Churches. He has been active in advocating that Iraq was historically Christian in nature, and not Muslim.

On January 24th 2006, he announced the publication of a book he had written entitled Saddam's Secrets: How an Iraqi General Defied And Survived Saddam Hussein, with the tagline "An insider exposes plans to destroy Israel, hide WMDs and control the Arab world."[3] Sada, the former Vice Air Marshall under Hussein, appeared the following day on Fox News' Hannity & Colmes, where he discussed his book and reported that other pilots told him that Hussein had ordered them to fly portions of the WMD stockpiles to Damascus in Syria just prior to the 2003 Invasion of Iraq.

Well, I want to make it clear, very clear to everybody in the world that we had the weapon of mass destruction in Iraq, and the regime used them against our Iraqi people...I know it because I have got the captains of the Iraqi airway that were my friends, and they told me these weapons of mass destruction had been moved to Syria.[4]

Sada made a guest appearance on The Daily Show on March 21st, 2006 to promote Saddam's Secrets. 100% of the profits from his book go to an organization that donates school bags and items to Middle Eastern children.

en.wikipedia.org...

About the claim the "United States planted such weapons".... you are taking commondreams as the main source, and btw some Russian officials made that claim...

There is also the following.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

And to top it all if Saddam's regime was not working in a wmd program, as if he wasn't caught enough times lying to the world that he didn't and then it was found out that "he did lie several times"...

Anyways, if the regime was not working on a wmd program, why did they have so many banned material?... Why go against the sanctions by having "empty chemical warheads", banned missiles, banned missile technology, tons of documents dealing with wmd etc, etc, etc.... Saddam's regime had 10 years to destroy all of those, yet they didn't and instead claimed they had destroyed them all...



[edit on 11-7-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
Oh i see....so let them attack us first right?... We have to wait for them to attack us, then we can attack back....

Man oh man. I just can't believe your logic Muaddib, or that of the Bush pre-emptive war doctrine, for that matter. If every nation on earth gets the idea that it is ok to strike pre-emptively, and for lesser and lesser reasons, then I will concurrently lose all faith in humanity's ability to sustain itself. Cause it's not going to last much longer.

By that logic, the moment the Iranian president said the "wiped off the map" comment, Israel should have obliterated the place. Perceived threat, ok to do.... BAM. Done. But they didn't, and thank the Jewish Prophets for appropriate guidance upon thy people.

By that logic, the moment the HAMAS charter was known....BAM. Done.

By that logic, NK on Japan.

India on Pakistan.

_______________ on ____________________. Now why don't you keep filling in the blanks, Muaddib. And tell me, with what are you left?


What's the matter, running out of countries?

But I digress. Aight, so the military says the chems qualify as WMD's. And Muaddib has enlightened us as usual with his good arguments, minimal exageration, and agenda-free presentations. Seriously, that was excellent on the suppliers, Muaddib, thanks. In fact, some arguments here from the membership continually cause me to take a step back, to more of a center position, and examine the entire situation again with the input included.

Maybe there are more WMD's still to be found if the administration would get around to inspecting the other sites. Yeah sure, maybe the miltary is so bogged down in fighting they haven't had time. But then again, who's going to believe them in the conspiracy world if they do find more after having been in control of them for so long? I mean hell, they'd have the time to plant them. Instead of getting in there as soon as possible, inpecting the sites and displaying the resulting trophies as additional justification... Maybe Americans are the true saints for resolving to do something about this brutal dictator when no one else would. Maybe.

If it was as cut and dry as that, I could almost go with it. But with the rest of all worldly circumstance in consideration here, and particularly with the major oil conglomerates, there is evidence that more complicated, sinister forces are really at play that belittle a petty argument over WMD's...

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
Man oh man. I just can't believe your logic Muaddib, or that of the Bush pre-emptive war doctrine, for that matter. If every nation on earth gets the idea that it is ok to strike pre-emptively, and for lesser and lesser reasons, then I will concurrently lose all faith in humanity's ability to sustain itself. Cause it's not going to last much longer.

By that logic, the moment the Iranian president said the "wiped off the map" comment, Israel should have obliterated the place. Perceived threat, ok to do.... BAM. Done. But they didn't, and thank the Jewish Prophets for appropriate guidance upon thy people.

By that logic, the moment the HAMAS charter was known....BAM. Done.

By that logic, NK on Japan.

India on Pakistan.

America on Russia.

Russia on America.

It goes on and on until the only land masses left are Australia and New Zealand. And in a full blown nuclear exchange I'd bet someone would drop a few nukes on them too, just for the hell of it.

This is exactly what's wrong with pre-emptive warfare. If countries can justify attacking sovereign nations because of a perceived threat then the rest of the world could justifiably attack America at this point in history.

Great post. You've got one of my WATS votes for this month.

TrueAmerican,

Yes, have to agree, though I support the war, that was a good post

Semper

What Muaddib hates to admit is that he picks and chooses his sources just like the rest of us do to suit his beliefs and that many of his "sources" are just as problematic as he claims ours are. Perosnally I tend to believe Hans Blix and Scott Ritter's reports, after all they were on the ground and were commissioned to root out WMD by the UN. And then there is the report by the offical U.S. WMD search team, which by his own account Muaddib discounts as lies (HMMMM!!!! Who do I believe, some blowhard in Montana or the people who had a vested interest to find them in the first place? Hard choice....blowhard.... offical search team....blowhard....offical search team? while many of his sources are shadowy...."Russian spy"....supposed Iraqi general (who by the way was not only supplied by the Iraqi National Congress, Ahmad Chalibi's group, known to have supplied phoney info, but was exposed by the CIA as a phoney as well) and hard to verify unless you chose to believe them.

A good example of this is a few threads ago I pointed out that the CEO of Diebold was on record as saying that..."His company was committed to the re-election of President Bush." Well Muaddib laid an egg...you could hear the clucking all the way to Virginia and demanded my source. Well I provided it...I found a link on Common Dreams to the Cincinatti Inquirer reporting the comments. Well Muaddib point blank refused to accept it because the source of the link was Common Dreams, even after other posters supplied other links. It was a damned liberal plant, according to Mr. Facts....I mean Muaddib.

In short he hunts and pecks what he choses to believe just like everyone else and has no more (or less) crediblity than anyone else despite all his "FACTS".

I am correcting myself....the "General" that the Iraqi National Congress supplied that was used as a selling point in the lead up to war and that the CIA outted as a fake (a sargent, no general) was Jamal al-Ghurairy not General Sadr that Muaddib sited. Bet ya Muaddib would never correct himself.

Originally posted by Muaddib
Well, perhaps you should read about the things found in Iraq, and including the scuds and banned missiles they fired at the coalition at the beginning of the war...

There were no scuds found nor fired and no missiles fired at the coalition had a range greater than allowed. Nevermind that the forbidden missile type was already being destroyed by the UN and hence a poor pretext for war.

Originally posted by Muaddib
Or how about the empty chemical warheads some of which were still in boxes

No such things were found, just some pre Gulf war rusty shells, which even the Iraq survey group admits were most likely lost or forgotten and not part of some deliberate effort to keep WMD behind.

Originally posted by Muaddib
or how about the essential centrifuge parts for uranium enrichment which Iraqi scientists were not told to dispose of even after 10 years passed for some reason...

That was a few ball bearings you could find in any shop and a blueprint, the scientist was asked to hide it shortly after 1991 and was never asked about it again by the Iraqi government for 10 years, indicating by then they had most likely forgotten.

Originally posted by Muaddib
What about the banned missile parts also found in scrapyards around the world

The parts (the engines themselves) weren't banned, one particular missile type they were part of were.

Originally posted by Muaddib
they were found because there were high radiation reading coming from those sites

Not really, you're confusing that with other scrap metal parts that were found because of their radiation levels. The US after the war namely miserably failed to secure Iraq's former nuclear sites.

Originally posted by Muaddib
and they were discovered by the international community to have belonged to Iraq up to the start of the war...

Which proves the exact opposite of what you're trying to prove: thanks to the invasion, many sites could be looted and potentially lethal materials could have ended up in the hands of terrorists.

Originally posted by Muaddib
Remember those satelite images of a bunch of trucks that were supposed to be active and moveable biological and chemical weapons labs?

Yes. No such trucks were found, although some still dispute that some trucks which seem to have been intended for mobile hydrogen production, might have been mobile biological warfare trucks.

Originally posted by Muaddib
Then there is the known fact that Russian ex military, who still had connections with the Russian government and are now living and enjoying their hard work in Russia, were given medals by the regime of Saddam for their help up to the beginning of the war in Iraq...

That is no "known fact".

Originally posted by Muaddib
Then you have the statements from ex Russian military defectors who say that Russia had a plan for deep sixing wmd from third world countries like Iraq, coded name "sarindar" in Romanian.

That's not from an "ex Russian military defector" but from Ion Michai Pecepa. This guy defected even before Saddam became president, and is ex Romanian intelligence, not ex Russian military. Nevermind that Romania positioned itself independently from the USSR under Ceaucescu, that Pacepa was not in a position to know and that as a big chief in the feared Romanian Securitate he is most likely a professional liar with lots of blood on his hands.

Originally posted by Muaddib
not to mention the statements from scientists and military officers from Iraq including the second in command of the air force in Iraq saying Saddam did have a wmd program active, as well as the statements from at least a Syrian journalist and some other people.

No scientist or military officer serving at around 2002 ever claimed the existence of WMD. Former general Georges Sada retired in 1986 and was arrested and dismissed on February 5, 1991. he was hence not in a position to know. The other one claiming that, Ali Ibrahim Al-Tikriti, fled Iraq before the Gulf War and hence was not in a position to know either. He is also a known liar and self confessed mass murderer. talk about reliable sources. Nevermind none of them provided a single shred of evidence to back up their claims.

Originally posted by Muaddib
But of course, to some people all of the above is all a lie. A way to deny the truth
is what I call it..

well, most of what you have written indeed partly qualifies as lies, that is if you made these statements knowing that they were false. You instead seem grotesquely misinformed and uninformed.

Originally posted by thematrix
Tons of documents dealing with wmd and how to start them again, which they were not supposed to have, empty chemical warheads and banned missiles and banned missile parts among other things which were also found there should give you a hint of what was going on in Iraq.

Oooooo, those EMPTY chemical warheads were a real threat. nevermind what I have addressed before.

[edit on 12-7-2006 by Simon666]

Originally posted by ShakyaHeir
If countries can justify attacking sovereign nations because of a perceived threat then the rest of the world could justifiably attack America at this point in history.

Great post. You've got one of my WATS votes for this month.

I couldn't agree more, Shaky, and it's just a matter of time before they all realize that they will have to team up and do so, lest they be preempted themselves. Thanks very much for that vote, although really it pales in comparison to the work you guys have been doing in here. Grover, bless your heart, but at this point if a mod hasn't warned you on the personal stuff with muaddib, you are getting away with murder. Just urging you to cool it a bit, and let it go. He has apparently ignored you, which I really hated to see. It shouldn't have to come to that between such obviously intelligent people.

And Semper, you have made very excellent posts all through this thread, which I have appreciated, thanks.

Originally posted by semperfortis
Say 50K have died in the war? How does that compare to the 5 million or so that Saddam killed before we took him down. I know...it's 10%
...
No that says he PRODUCED it. I'm not disputing that. Of course he produced it, he used the rest of it apparently to kill the MILLIONS that you all would have him still killing. Semper

The most conventional statements are that Saddam killed around 300,000 people, or a million and a half if you include everyone who died in the Iran - Iraq war and the sanctions. Nevermind that with the current finds in the mass graves, even that 300,000 figure seems to be going the way of the 100,000 Albanian Kosovars, if you are old enough or good enough of memory to remember that one.

Originally posted by Muaddib
Did you know that Abu Abbas, who was an Iraqi supported terrorist, masterminded the hijack of an Italian ship in 1985, the terrorists aboard the cruiseship decided to separate the Jewish people from the non-Jewish and they killed a Jewish man who happened to be an American, Leon Klinghoffer.

Abu Abbas only masterminded it, was never present nor ordered klinghoffer to be killed. That is by the way the only jewish/American dead Abu Abbas is responsible for. He had by that time sworn off terrorism and was an old man already, he died of natural causes within in US custody within the year. Big achievement. Worth sending a few thousand soldiers to their miserable death for.

Anyways, 500,000 children died in about 10 years in Iraq with the regular sanctions, which half of the world wanted to keep instead of going to war.
Most of those 500,000 died in the first few years before the Oil For Food program, which despite being denounced for being partially corrupted (for about 10% upwards or so), did a good job of greatly reducing such starvation and disease related deaths. Besides, even your very own Madeleine Albright seems to think 500,000 dead Iraqi children were worth it. So your figure of 150,000 more children dead is again greatly misleading.

Originally posted by Muaddib
they also don't tell you that now more people in Iraq, not in Baghdag but in other parts of iraq, have more running water than they had before, they have more sewer systems which are working now more than during or before Saddam's reign, etc, etc, etc....

They still have less electricity and barely more running water and sewers.

Originally posted by Muaddib
From 1991 to 1995, the Iraqi regime said it had no biological weapons. After a senior official in its weapons program defected and exposed this lie, the regime admitted to producing tens of thousands of liters of anthrax and other deadly biological agents for use with Scud warheads, aerial bombs, and aircraft spray tanks. U.N. inspectors believe Iraq has produced two to four times the amount of biological agents it declared, and has failed to account for more than three metric tons of material that could be used to produce biological weapons. Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons.

United Nations' inspections also revealed that Iraq likely maintains stockpiles of VX, mustard and other chemical agents, and that the regime is rebuilding and expanding facilities capable of producing chemical weapons.

That was grotesquely misleading information from the White House. All biological agents and chemical agents - with two exceptions: mustard gas and binary sarin and cyclorain munitions - dating from 1991 would have been degraded completely. No expanding or improving facilities for biochem warfare were found, not before the 2003 war and not even after the 1991 war.

Originally posted by Muaddib
No your statement is patently false. And that statement holds as much weight as yours. Were you not watching the news as we drove into Baghdad and see the cheering crowds? Did you not see them tearing down the statues? 12 Million came out and voted!!!

The crowds were not that big and the statue tearing staged. Regarding those voting, voting doesn't mean they like the US or even democracy itself. Many of them voted for political parties that have rather theocratic viewpoints.

Originally posted by grover
but semper...are 500 rusty canisters of decayed nerve gas really what we went to war over? I mean really...is that worth thousands of lives? If it was 500 canisters of fresh potent gas that might be one thing....but this?

REPLY: SARIN does not decompose or lose potency.

Originally posted by justyc
perhaps they should do something about the people that sold those deadly chemical weapons to the iraqis in the first place. what sort of people are they that they knowingly sold and financially benefited from the selling of such evil weapons to such an evil dictator in the 1st place?

oh yeah - they were uk & us people.

REPLY: The US never sold weapons to Saddam. We gave him inteligence and credits for agricultural equipment. Many of the weapons found during the conflict came from Germany, Italy, Russia and, who else.... France, the same wonderful people who were in on the Oil For Fraud program.

My bad.... Muadib already covered this on page one.

[edit on 12-7-2006 by zappafan1]

What are the requirements for a weapon to qualify as a wmd? Who defined the requirements? Who maintains the list of weapons considered wmds? Where do they keep this list? Is their a website with the wmd list?

REPLY: A WMD is defined as Chemical, Nuclear and/or Biological.

How many people do you think became insurgents after they saw the pictures from Abu Ghraib? How many people do you think have recently became insurgents because of the Haditha massacre?

REPLY: Yeah..... seeing womens panties on a guys head would want me to turn into a terrorist! HA HA HA

I believe you'll find that Haditha will turn out to be something other thatn what you so desperately want to be: All of the shell cases on the ground in the video were AK-47; the guy who took the video has a family member in Gitmo; he took the video two months before it was released. There have been multiple instances of other "videos" and stories, all of which were phony and altered.

So you're telling me that if the Bush administration found the WMDs that they used to justify the war they WOULDN'T hold a big press conference to wave it in the face of war naysayers and the growing public disapproval for this new Vietnam?

REPLY: I'd be disappointed if he doesn't. Another Viet Nam?.... talk about uninformed.

I fully comprehend that there were WMD in Iraq at one point, the question is was there an active program at the time we invaded and it seems that the answer was no.

REPLY: Sigh.... over and over...!!! Saddams second in command explained that the Russians used trucks to move many of the WMD's to Syria, and there were stipped-out 747's used also.... moving mosty everything to Syria; The Bakaa Valley.
All of what Kadaffi gave up so willingly came from Iraq.

".... many if not most of us who oppose this war do on moral grounds.

REPLY: Grover.. if you and others are against the war, then you are FOR what Saddam was doing to his people; you can't have it both ways. So... you are FOR the rape rooms; the Stinging Rooms; dipping people head or feet first in acid, etc,etc.