Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
On a site as large and as popular as ATS, we will encounter a fair percentage of people who will see such activity as anti-American.

So are you telling me that there is no Anti-American activity on ATS? I understand what you are saying but surely you cannot be that naive? If it looks like a duck and well, you know the rest…

Originally posted by WestPoint23
So are you telling me that there is no Anti-American activity on ATS?

No, I didn't say that.

I pointed out that a category of people consider speculation of conspiracy theories and/or harsh criticism of a sitting administration to be "anti-American".

Westpoint do you make a distinction between people criticising the United States and anti-Americanism?

I criticise some of the actions of the United States but I am not anti-American.

I'm not aware of anyone here, off the top of my head, who just deep down in their soul reviles baseball, apple pie, and the stars and stripes Westpoint.

I'm aware of a vocal segment of both the ATS membership and society in general who have come to believe that certain actions taken by America, which are something unrelated to the essence of what America is, are either wrong or part of a conspiracy or both. I don't think that would pass muster at the International Anti-American Convention (being held next month in Pyongyang, don't miss it!).

If someone hates you and assumes that your an overfed, ignorant, arrogant, blood-thirsty, seal-clubbing, Iraqi-naked-twister-playing redneck just because you were born in America... that person is an anti-American. We have one or two of those who are out of the closet, but if we have a lot, at least they normally mind their manners because I haven't pegged all that many of them.

If someone is vehemently opposed to this or that political policy, thinks we run our country unwisely, etc... that person is opinionated, and belongs to an ever-growing class of people who sometimes annoy some Americans and from time to time get a little uncouthe about it, but they're not "anti-American" per se.

And if somebody thinks we've all been duped by our government and are being lead to destruction... well that's just a conspiracy theorist for you. We can't very well have an ATS if we tell them to stop making people uncomfortable.


Maybe that's the problem. Have some of you people actually come to a conspiracy site looking for high-minded optimism and loads of good news? That'd be something to see.

"Say guys, I heard this very intriguing theory from my friend. He seems to think that those delightfully wacky NWO guys running America are finally planning to do something about starvation in Africa. Unfortunately the best they could come up with was to finish the job by introducing Terminator seeds, but at least someone's finally doing something about it. It's so nice that we live in such an orderly world with such powerful and decisive leaders, isn't it?"

Ugh... I think I'm gonna go wash my mouth out now.

Sized up the difference between Anti-American and Anti-Policy/Administration rather well.

JSobecky: We guarantee you "BOTH SIDES" will be enforced. The "Liberal Political Baters/Hijackers" are just as boring and "Ignorance Embracing" as any "Conservative" version I've seen.

Springer...

Originally posted by subs
Westpoint do you make a distinction between people criticising the United States and anti-Americanism?

I criticise some of the actions of the United States but I am not anti-American.

Yes I do, and I wouldn’t call you or the overwhelming majority of members who are frequent posters on here Anti American for that but IMO there is that small, small percentage that are just pushing it and I cant help but see their actions as anything but. As such I personally wouldn’t assume that everything posted is critical analyses and opinion of the US government and or society in general.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
I'm not aware of anyone here, off the top of my head, who just deep down in their soul reviles baseball, apple pie, and the stars and stripes Westpoint.

Well sadly I can, I’ve experienced it and seen it here on ATS a few times. Again, the overwhelming majority are not but there are few, and in those cases calling someone Anti-American is right IMO.

[edit on 6-7-2006 by WestPoint23]

[edit on 6-7-2006 by WestPoint23]

Westpoint,

Are you referring to "foreigners" because i do not know of one American here, myself included, who should be labeled "Anti-American"

If this is your opinion of some here, you're sadly mistaken.

Can things change? I think not, unfortunatedly, not when we have some here who have judged us and labeled us. Here's a classic example.

Let me just add, that i havent heard any untoward anti-american rhetoric from people living outside the usa either.

You are wrong.

Edited for spelling error-

[edit on 6-7-2006 by dgtempe]

*Sigh* I did not label anyone, don’t worry, I was not referring to you. I merely pointed out that ATS does have a very small percentage of members who IMO fit the definition of being Anti-American, and I can judge that by the intent and content of their posts. And as I previously stated I don’t consider all those who are critical of the government and their policy Anti-American. Please read what I posted, if you feel that there are no Anti-American members on ATS then that’s fine, I on the other hand see otherwise.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
I merely pointed out that ATS does have a very small percentage of members who IMO fit the definition of being Anti-American

And if so, there's nothing wrong with that.

We are an international board that supports freedom of expression. The current world view of the United States is not positive, and slightly more than 20% of all users are from outside the U.S.

Well presented "anti-American" opinions are just as welcome as Anti-Anything else opinions.

Absolutely, accordingly when I see something which IMO is blatantly Anti-American I wont stand for it, and I will call it out, then I can respond with my own "well presented" Anti- something. But I would hope in an effort to better ATS members who routinely post Anti-Whatever statements and contribute little else would be subject to some sort of consequence.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Absolutely, accordingly when I see something which IMO is blatantly Anti-American I wont stand for it, and I will call it out, then I can respond with my own "well presented" Anti- something. But I would hope in an effort to better ATS members who routinely post Anti-Whatever statements and contribute little else would be subject to some sort of consequence.

I think a mountain is being made out of a mole hill here. Anti-America sentiment seems perfectly fine to me, if it is presented in an appropriate fashion. Upon that, you would respond in an appropriate fashion. If both sides present their work appropriately, then the point is moot. I doubt anything else will change in regard to people that just go into a thread to spew nonsense, as has already been done by the mods/staff. I think this is working off of far to many "what if's" when we should be doing our thing on ATS and taking on some things when they come up. Just my $.02.

**comment removed altogether by myself**

**restraint system in place**

[edit on 6-7-2006 by Anon4this1]

[edit on 6-7-2006 by Anon4this1]

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by WestPoint23
So are you telling me that there is no Anti-American activity on ATS?

No, I didn't say that.

I pointed out that a category of people consider speculation of conspiracy theories and/or harsh criticism of a sitting administration to be "anti-American".

There are those of "us" who might further qualify that statement and explain why this is important during a time of war, but I will not get into that here...as I do not wish to spend 2 days in PTS.

You may have gathered that I have stated a few strong opinions on some of this, but I sincerely "get it" so I'm not going there. However, just understand that a few of us have served and worked hard and find it difficult to stay quiet when things are being said over and again in this forum. Most of this is perceived to be "anti-Bush" but I'm not really a Bush fan per se. But what I can say is that those who walk in with the sledgehammers probably have a decent reason for feeling slighted. These are not the simple conspiracies presented, but those posts thinly disguised as conspiracy but clearly the same old "anti" crud flying around the net these days.

So as long at ATS points the cannon in all directions when this rears it's ugly head, we'll all be fine. Keep the posts in the subject, to include trolls from both sides, and this will do ATS much credit.

Parting statement: this is by far one of the finest boards that I've seen from a moderation and management standpoint. The fact that you guys toil on this "for free" blows my mind, because I for one probably would not have the time to do so. Thanks for making every attempt at quality control, and keep bringing the guests in. I sincerely thank you guys and wish no ill will towards earlier comments.

I am just looking for balance here...THANK you Springer for making that clear. That's all some of "us" are asking for.




[edit on 6-7-2006 by Anon4this1]

I'll say this and bow out of this fine thread. We all know what i meant and what others meant when i said people call us Anti-American. I pretty much take it as a "swear" to be honest with you. You people know full well what i mean and you also know full well who you are.
No sense in sugar coating it, or getting upset by it. Its the truth and happens every day.
Lets not play games either.

Sentiments are one thing- but the use of it as a put down or "swear" is not to be tolerated.

[edit on 6-7-2006 by dgtempe]

Here's the deal...

Westpoint:

We will ALL "stand for it", anybody that has the ability to type, an internet connection, and the social grace to deliver their opinion of America, or any other nation in a civil manner sticking to the facts IS WELCOME HERE.

Additionally, anybody that has the ability to type, an internet connection, and the social grace to deliver their counterpoint to another's opinion of America, or any other nation in a civil manner sticking to the facts IS WELCOME HERE.


Do we ALL understand now? Just to make sure:


It's NOT ABOUT THE OPINION, IT'S ABOUT BEING CIVIL AND NOT HI-JACKING A THREAD WITH MEANINGLESS POLITICAL PARTY PROPAGANDA

Springer...

[edit on 7-6-2006 by Springer]

People, there is a majority of Americans in the country who sides with Bush (and the administration) because they voted for him and supported him in spite of Bush's shortcomings. They interpret any attack or criticism on Bush or the Bush administration as "anti-American" or "anti-Bush", because, in their own views, an attack on President Bush is an attack on these Americans who put him there in the first place. Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about some pro-Bush members here but the majority of Americans all over the country who supports Bush.

You can all argue that it's not anti-American to attack Bush, the Republicans, his policies, the Democrats, and on and on because, according to Springer, when it comes to conspiratorial and political nature of the leadership running the country, they are fair game to any such criticism and various discussions for or against them. HOWEVER, there are pro-Bush Americans who aren't obviously aware of the existence of the ATS board and the nature of discussions against Bush and his administration here; they will always view any attack or criticism on Bush, his administration, and the Republicans as "anti-American", regardless of what you think or concur with Springer's "blunt rant".

Trust me, there are very smart pro-Bush Americans who can take on Springer or SkepticOverlord and tear them apart. Fortunately, they are at other forum boards and not in here. Although I am forbidden, per ATS T&C, to post any link to these forum boards, suffice to say that's understandable.

Originally posted by niteboy82
I think a mountain is being made out of a mole hill here. Anti-America sentiment seems perfectly fine to me, if it is presented in an appropriate fashion. Upon that, you would respond in an appropriate fashion. If both sides present their work appropriately, then the point is moot.

That would be true as long as no one is baiting certain members for political provocative statements and raw emotional sentiments in regard to some issues more important or personal to these members and get "slammed" or "bashed" for it. Case in point with rich23's hijacked thread on the Marines-Haditha affair and his broadsided baiting of me for defending the Marines.

I would be more mindful of any anti-American sentiment as a Trojan horse for provocative and raw emotional sentiments in any discussion. It's just a little harder for me (or for anyone) to perceive the other side's intentions without seeing them in person and not knowing the visual and emotional cues.

[edit on 7/6/2006 by pawnplayer]

Originally posted by pawnplayer

You can all argue that it's not anti-American to attack Bush, the Republicans, his policies, the Democrats, and on and on because, according to Springer, when it comes to conspiratorial and political nature of the leadership running the country, they are fair game to any such criticism and various discussions for or against them.

We aren't going to argue with anybody. We are going to send them to PTS for two days and if that doesn't wake them up to the fact this site is a CONSPIRACY THEORY/ALTERNATIVE TOPIC discussion board we are going to save them the pain it must cause them to deny IGNORANCE and cancel their membership.

Springer...


[edit on 7-6-2006 by Springer]

Originally posted by Springer

Originally posted by pawnplayer

You can all argue that it's not anti-American to attack Bush, the Republicans, his policies, the Democrats, and on and on because, according to Springer, when it comes to conspiratorial and political nature of the leadership running the country, they are fair game to any such criticism and various discussions for or against them.

We aren't going to argue with anybody. We are going to send them to PTS for two days and if that doesn't wake them up to the fact this site is a CONSPIRACY THEORY/ALTENATIVE TOPIC discussion board we are going to save them the pain it must cause them to deny IGNORANCE and cancel their membership.

Springer...

[edit on 7-6-2006 by Springer]

Fair enough.
By the way, did you get my u2u last night?

Originally posted by pawnplayer

Trust me, there are very smart pro-Bush Americans who can take on Springer or SkepticOverlord and tear them apart. Fortunately, they are at other forum boards and not in here. Although I am forbidden, per ATS T&C, to post any link to these forum boards, suffice to say that's understandable.

Please... Get a clue mate. This site is very well known and if they had the ability to "tear us apart" they would be here in a minute. I'm pretty sure they've already come and gone with their tails between their legs. You see, there is nothing to "tear up" this isn't a schoolboy competition, this a way to CRITCALLY CONSIDER current events.

Your idle rantings about a MOOT POINT are growing tiresome and your obvious incapacity to grasp a simple edict is evidence of a lack of synaptic transmissions.

Springer...

[edit on 7-6-2006 by Springer]