'Liberty Is Universal'

Freedom is being able to dissent WITH results, in this current state, nothing will change until Helliburton figures out how make billion supplying peace and freedom. Sure, we have the freedom to disent (barely) but what difference does it make? The regime does what it wants anyways, doesn't matter that damn near 3/4 of "the people" disapprove of the current leadership and situation.

Yeah, i can dissent, but what will it accomplish? Kinda like a gnat attacking an elephant. Is that really freedom if we're allowed to voice our opinions only to deaf ears? Can I sit in the park and spark up a J to celebrate life, liberty, freedom, and this holiday? According to my beliefs herb is my sacrament, just as wine (or beer it seems) is for others. Aside from the ridiculousness of a plant that's been here as long as we have (and evolved a symbiotic relationship with us) being illegal, my (and others') religious freedom is being suppressed.

Can I pick up the phone and have the freedom to a private conversation? Who knows anymore? Not all of these things are related to the war, the current administration, some go back many administrations, but they're still there, only discounted because we're so short sighted that we can't see the big picture.

If I'm so free, then why do I have to constantly be on the lookout for crooked cops? I've been robbed at gunpoint by these types before, never got robbed at gunpoint otherwise, but a group of 6 cops decided to shake me down and smack me around. Another time a fake warrant was issued for my arrest because someone i did business with stopped buying cops and those cops retaliated, illegally searching my vessel (i was living on a sailboat), violating many laws. During my false warrant arrest, i was cuffed, the cop then grins, laughs, and pulls out his nightstick saying "this will be fun". He backed off when i smiled back and told him "i'll take you on, I ain't Rodeny" and got in fighting stance, while cuffed and invited him to come in and test.

I tried exposing all this, but nobody listened , and besides, when the cops, AND politicians are crooked, who do you go to?

Most people live in the 9 to 5 to work to walmart to stucco prison cell routine, and follow the narrow path of "freedom" lockstep, like good New World Order soldiers. For the rest of us, we live in a cage of lies, false security, and red tape. Freedom is not living in a padded cell where nothing can hurt you, freedom is MY right to decide what i can say, believe, or possess. It's also your freedom to believe in the slow motion nuclear assault on the middle east, which is what using DU rounds basically is, only without the big bright mushroom clouds. We've dropepd more uranium there than we ever did in Japan.

I care about what happens to the people who were brainwashed and suckered into fighting the oil war, and that's why i'd want to see them back home, so they stop blindly killing for economic security. I don't want to be surrounded by a safety net, wearing a helmet, and locked in the padded room of freedom. I'd sure as hell trade security for freedom, how about you?

I won't even respond to the insults Jsobecky just threw at me. At least Ed can conduct himself like an adult, I enjoyed the debate Ed. I do think that the battle against al qaeda can and will be won. But remember the key word there, battle. They are a small part of the bigger war which will last indefinately.

Originally posted by Nerdling
How is it being won?

Can you back up your statement? Or is it more meaningless jingoism?

Sure :

(1) how many attacks have we seen in the US since 911?

(2) How many were thwarted?

(3) How many Arab governments have been overthrown since 911?


(4) How many voted in Afghanistan? Iraq?

(5) Other than the pitiful attempt to terrorize the Iraqi people, what goals has Al Qaeda won? Is the US economy in the crapper?



Should I go on..... It will not be one in the next few years, it will take time. We sure as hell have the momentum though.......

patience is something some Americans need to learn...I mean we didn't go island hopping in 1941 did we?

WATS grim.

Thanks for articulating my thoughts that I could never put into words as well as you did.

happy 4th!! and 5th and 6th......

[edit on 4-7-2006 by whaaa]

Originally posted by grimreaper797 I enjoyed the debate Ed. I do think that the battle against al qaeda can and will be won. But remember the key word there, battle. They are a small part of the bigger war which will last indefinately.

Well I guess we are closer than you think because I FIRMLY feel Iraq is a HUGE part of that war. A HUGE one.

Originally posted by edsinger

Originally posted by grimreaper797 I enjoyed the debate Ed. I do think that the battle against al qaeda can and will be won. But remember the key word there, battle. They are a small part of the bigger war which will last indefinately.

Well I guess we are closer than you think because I FIRMLY feel Iraq is a HUGE part of that war. A HUGE one.

Iraq is just another battle. Everything we are seeing are just battles. Once we win Iraq and Afganistan then beat Al Qaeda the war wont be over. Iran syria and North korea are just a mere few of the next nations on the list. The War On Terror is bigger then Iraq, Afganistan, and Al Qaeda.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
war against Al Qaeda is a different story. War against Al Qaeda is being won, but remember they are just a part of the war on terrorism. Why do you think they said terrorism? After Al Qaeda is completely destroyed, this war will still continue. I really do hope you see that.

yes I see it, The war against Al Qaeda is no more than a war against Islamic Fundamentalism, al qaeda will be replaced by another. The only hope is to free the Muslim world......freedom... that will win it...

Originally posted by edsinger

Originally posted by grimreaper797
war against Al Qaeda is a different story. War against Al Qaeda is being won, but remember they are just a part of the war on terrorism. Why do you think they said terrorism? After Al Qaeda is completely destroyed, this war will still continue. I really do hope you see that.

yes I see it, The war against Al Qaeda is no more than a war against Islamic Fundamentalism, al qaeda will be replaced by another. The only hope is to free the Muslim world......freedom... that will win it...

Unfortunately its not even a war against Islamic Fundamentalism. If it was at least we would have certian enemies to target. Terrorist can be anybody, of any religion, for any reason, at any time. This is not a war against Islam, or al Qaeda, or even the mid east. It is a war on every thing that opposses the United States. Whoever opposses this nation should fear for their life more now then ever.

Before 9/11 unless you were a serious threat you wouldn't have to worry. If you were you would probably worry about CIA cover groups assassinating you like they tried to do against Castro and did to others. But now, its a war against anyone oppossing the US. We have had CIA programs that plotted to kill some of our own citizens (Malcolm X, MLK, etc.), you think they would think twice about killing a foreigner against government power?

This war is against everyone that is strongly oppossed to the actions of this government.

Originally posted by grimreaper797


This war is against everyone that is strongly oppossed to the actions of this government.

Sorry but that is a stretch.


the War on terror is not Islamic Fundamentalism huh? how come we are not in Sudan then? No , this war IS about Islamic Fundamentalism. Sure other 'tiny' terrorists get to take part, but the thrust.....well...that's obvious even to the most causal of observers...

Originally posted by edsinger

Originally posted by grimreaper797


This war is against everyone that is strongly oppossed to the actions of this government.

Sorry but that is a stretch.


the War on terror is not Islamic Fundamentalism huh? how come we are not in Sudan then? No , this war IS about Islamic Fundamentalism. Sure other 'tiny' terrorists get to take part, but the thrust.....well...that's obvious even to the most causal of observers...

we aren't there yet because we simply cant handle another war. Once Iraq and afganistan are won, we will move on to the next countries in line. If you seriously think that just because we haven't invade anymore countries yet that it isn't there plan you have another thing coming. We are in afganistan and iraq. We can't invade another country and have a chance to win. Its that simple. Once we win those two, we will move on. Some evidence will show that Syria has Iraqs WMD when Iraq war is pretty much over.

I mean come on you have to have watched the news. Just because Islamic Fundamentalism is the main resistor right now that doesn't mean after that its over.

Right now they might make you believe that its against islamic fundamentalism. They will do that until its pretty much gone then another serious terrorist threat will come along. They didn't call it war or terror for nothing. They are planning the indefinate war. Makes them lots of money ya know.

How about.. The war is for Bush to insure that the U.N. has more power over the U.S. It's not about liberty for anyone of us.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by edsinger
Oh, yeah, treat these fanatics with kid gloves. I damn sure would not want to infringe upon their constitutional rights now would I? Oh wait, they don't have any. How about Nick Bergs Rights?

Sir, I think you should read the title of your own thread. "Liberty Is Universal". You wrote it, but the above quote proves you don't believe it. There's a word for that, but I don't want to be a name caller.

And I think our forefathers believed that the rights they eventually laid down in the Bill of Rights are the rights of all mankind. I would use as evidence this quote from the Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. "

It's not the Constitution, or the Bill of Rights that gives us our rights. Those rights are the birth-right of all mankind. Those documents just protect our rights. Citizens of China have EXACTLY the same rights we have here in the States, they just don't have protection should they choose to exercise their god-given rights.

God Bless American!
God Damn the American Government!

Vas

I have long held that there is a misperception on the part of many when it comes to those who oppose war. Being anti-war doesn't constitute a lack of support and good wishes for men and women in the service anymore than being pro-choice constitutes being anti-life. I'm both pro-choice and pro-life. I'm anti-war and I support the troops. They are not mutually exclusive.

I support, honor, and even revere the spirit of service, self-sacrifice, and duty that calls men and women to serve in the armed forces, and act on their willingness - if need be - to die for those they love, and what they believe. I oppose the form in which that spirit manifests itself i.e. military conflict. Military conflict isn't the result (or the responsibility) of the men and women who respond to that spirit in the way society tells them and their life experiences tell them is best. It is the result of aspects of human nature that have existed since time immemorial, which until the last few thousand years, no one ever even fathomed might be things we could or should do away with. (I'm not saying we definitely should. I believe we should, but you won't catch me forcing that belief on others.)

That said, I do feel that those of us who make our opposition to war known also have a responsibility to let the troops overseas watching our protests and rhetoric know that we actually care whether they live or die. Too often, I've spoken to people returning from their tour of duty who tell me that they never once saw reason to believe we gave a damn about their wellbeing or safe return when they saw us voicing our opposition to the war. We are, at times, too passionate in that opposition to stop and think how it affects soldiers who see it from afar. I think more must be done to let them know we have the same humanitarian interests in their healthy, safe returns to home, as we do in an end to conflict.

Ultimately though, I feel it is more patriotic to exercise the right to express one's opinion when one has it, than it is to remain mum for the sake of political correctness or troop morale. I just also think they need to know we do care, at the same time.

"Liberty Is Universal" Was the article name, not mine.

Protesting the war is one thing, BUT morale is another quite important aspect. Which is more important? the right to bitch or preserving the morale of those getting shot at?


In the example of 'protesting war' I would place the NYT, and I would remind them of one thing,

"loose lips sink ships"


It is not that hard a concept...

I don't understand why we should preserve the moral of a group of people engaged in an action we disagree with.

If the KKK were out on a good old cross burning am I expected to encourage their exhibition of free speach in case they get upset even though I disagree with the fundimental reasons they're doing it ?

For that matter, why can't I support the troops who are pissed off with the whole thing and want to come home, and ignore the ones who actually believe in the war ?

Saying we should support our troops even if we don't support the war is a liberal cop out and a conservative cover all. Why should I give a crap about people fighting a war I don't believe in ?

I support our troops. I support the ones who's ideology is in line with my own and want to get the hell out of there, the ones who believe in this whole conflict can bite it for all I care and if that destroys their moral and makes them question why the hell they're there in the first place, good.

Originally posted by Vasilis Azoth

Originally posted by edsinger
Oh, yeah, treat these fanatics with kid gloves. I damn sure would not want to infringe upon their constitutional rights now would I? Oh wait, they don't have any. How about Nick Bergs Rights?

Sir, I think you should read the title of your own thread. "Liberty Is Universal". You wrote it, but the above quote proves you don't believe it. There's a word for that, but I don't want to be a name caller.

What term? Well I can guess but let me explain my point of view. The Constitution and Bill of Rights were for Americans, not those trying to kill Americans.

Its like the Geneva conventions, we should follow at all costs when the ones fighting laugh at the thought? Get serious, the only ones that will benefit would be the mass amount of lawyers it would require.