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'Liberty Is Universal'

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posted on Jul, 4 2006 @ 01:06 PM
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Bush Praises Troops at Fort Bragg on July 4th Holiday
Tuesday, July 04, 2006




President Bush honored American independence and the sacrifices of U.S. fighting men and women Tuesday with a reminder that victory in Iraq will require "more tough fighting" and "more sacrifice."




"I will make you this promise, I'm not going to allow the sacrifice of 2,527 troops who have died in Iraq to be in vain," Bush said to the crowd of uniformed troops, who responded with a chorus of "Hooah."



Well I guess he will not back down, no run like a whipped dog, tail between your legs as some in this country would have us do....


"You are serving our country at a time when our country needs you. And because of your courage, every day is Independence Day in America."


funny how on a day like today, some Americans forget the cost of the freedoms they enjoy....all the way back to the pesky colonists being a sore spot to the king, now ~250 years later, some forget the Anzio's, the sands of Iwo Jima, the pork chop hill's, the many other battles I can think of.

But today, I would like you to remember, Lebanon 1982, the USS Cole, The African Embassies, The Pentagon, and yes the WTC. This war has been going on for a while, and the United States and its loyal allies have decided to not stand around and negotiate with the unnegotiable. Some as always stand and fight whilst some run and hide....





"We're not going to set an artificial timetable," the commander-in-chief said, calling such an idea a "terrible mistake." To do so, he said, "would breathe new life into [the enemy's] cause" and undermine the new Iraqi government and the morale of U.S. troops.


Which is exactly what the "Tulipwalkers" are asking for....strange huh?


The president spoke at length about the recent killing of Al Qaeda in Iraq leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, saying that coalition and Iraqi forces have launched more than 190 raids on targets across Iraq, captured more than 700 enemy operatives and killed some 60 more. In the process, caches of weapons and additional intelligence have been gained.

I sure bet the Pelosi's sure cried a tear here no? What? There is success in Iraq? I thought it was all bad news. Just how many voted last time. It would seem that a duly elected government has taken power. Hmmm the Iraqi troops are getting better and better...hmmm gloom and doom.....



"We get all kinds of evidence when we raid these safehouses about their concerns. They bemoan the fact that we're keeping the pressure on them. They see the successes that we're having in training. They know we're damaging their cause. This moment when the terrorists are suffering from the weight of successive blows is not the time to call retreat. We will stay, we will fight, and we will prevail," Bush said.




We will win this you know.....




LINK to Full Story on Independence Day











Happy 4th of July!


[edit on 4-7-2006 by edsinger]




posted on Jul, 4 2006 @ 01:14 PM
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There is nothing that pisses me off more then when people use the 4th of July as a way to guilt me into feeling that I am some how unpatriotic because I don't support the current actions being taken. Why don't you stop trying to use a great day in american history to push your own little agenda.

I support the troops, especially the ones that are coming out of my own neighborhood. I don't support the Iraq war and it makes me sick to see you using the 4th of July, a day of independence and freedom, as a tool for you to push the Iraq war and make us feel less american if we don't support it.



posted on Jul, 4 2006 @ 01:24 PM
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Originally posted by edsinger

"We're not going to set an artificial timetable," the commander-in-chief said, calling such an idea a "terrible mistake." To do so, he said, "would breathe new life into [the enemy's] cause" and undermine the new Iraqi government and the morale of U.S. troops.


Which is exactly what the "Tulipwalkers" are asking for....strange huh?


Apparently ed only respects freedom when you have the freedom to think exactly like how he wants you to.


Senate Democrats reacted critically and skeptically to a report Sunday that the American commander in Iraq had privately presented a plan for significant troop reductions in the same week they came under attack by the GOP for trying to set a timetable for withdrawal.

Sen. Barbara Boxer, D-Calif., said the plan attributed to Gen. George Casey resembled the thinking of many Democrats who voted for a nonbinding resolution to begin a troop drawdown this December. That resolution was defeated on a largely party-line vote in the Senate on Thursday.

www.newsobserver.com...



posted on Jul, 4 2006 @ 01:33 PM
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Originally posted by grimreaper797There is nothing that pisses me off more then when people use the 4th of July as a way to guilt me into feeling that I am some how unpatriotic because I don't support the current actions being taken. Why don't you stop trying to use a great day in American history to push your own little agenda.


Fair enough then, it makes me sick when I see Americans that do not support the troops yet claim they do. When you speak ill of them and they job they do and are required to do as per their voluntary status, you think it helps their morale? Who are you kidding? You might not spit on them when they come back, but by speaking out against their mission, you cause them issues and cheapens their lives in my humble opinion. You honestly tell me that the troops you talk to love to hear about how much those back home think their mission is crap! Do you expect me to believe this is true?



Originally posted by grimreaper797I support the troops, especially the ones that are coming out of my own neighborhood. I don't support the Iraq war and it makes me sick to see you using the 4th of July, a day of independence and freedom, as a tool for you to push the Iraq war and make us feel less American if we don't support it.


Well lets just see then, the 4th, a day to celebrate freedom. Hmmm


What is freedom? Is it the ability to get on a plane and go where you wish without having to worry about a bomb? How about going to a mall or market to get food without being blown up by a suicide bomber? You think these are not going to happen in America? Well I hope they do not, but we are at WAR. You do not pussyfoot around and nitpick the decisions made as it only aids the enemy. So how would you deal with the stated goal of these schmucks to collapse the great satan. How do you justify it to the troops when they come back to your neighborhood? I sure as hell bet you tell them to their face that the mission was wrong do you not? You tell them that their buddies died for naught right?


Well after all its a free country so you have the right to have your opinions as do I.

And I like to celebrate the freedoms that this day represents, both those already won and those the are yet to be won...



posted on Jul, 4 2006 @ 01:43 PM
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Originally posted by edsinger
What is freedom? Is it the ability to get on a plane and go where you wish without having to worry about a bomb? How about going to a mall or market to get food without being blown up by a suicide bomber?


You are confusing freedom with security. Actual freedom and our personal perception of freedom are two different things.

Oh, and freedom does not equal liberty.



posted on Jul, 4 2006 @ 02:03 PM
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Originally posted by yanchek

Originally posted by edsinger
What is freedom? Is it the ability to get on a plane and go where you wish without having to worry about a bomb? How about going to a mall or market to get food without being blown up by a suicide bomber?


You are confusing freedom with security. Actual freedom and our personal perception of freedom are two different things.

Oh, and freedom does not equal liberty.


semantics...


I am free to order a airline ticket to go to Israel and visit. My security could not be guaranteed whilst there.


Our freedom as a nation was tested on 911. The enemy of freedom is terror. You do not leave your house if afraid you do not have security.....that is what this war is all about.

the ability of Americans to have the freedoms that they have come to expect, at a cost, that cost is what helps maintain the security in which you speak.


Either way, security and freedoms, they are both at risk in this new war......like it or not...

But be hopeful, we ARE winning.



posted on Jul, 4 2006 @ 02:05 PM
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Originally posted by edsinger

Fair enough then, it makes me sick when I see Americans that do not support the troops yet claim they do. When you speak ill of them and they job they do and are required to do as per their voluntary status, you think it helps their morale? Who are you kidding? You might not spit on them when they come back, but by speaking out against their mission, you cause them issues and cheapens their lives in my humble opinion. You honestly tell me that the troops you talk to love to hear about how much those back home think their mission is crap! Do you expect me to believe this is true?


alright look, I support the troops. I have 3 people just in my small neighborhood that or in iraq/afganistan right now. I write them each biweekly. You don't tell me about not supporting them. Everytime I write them I make sure they know that we all love them and wish nothing more then for them to do what they must and return home safe. They don't make decisions, they follow them. I support their actions, and their actions are to follow orders. I don't agree with the orders at all, but that doesn't mean I don't support the troops for doing it.

They are in the army/navy/air force to defend the nation. How the leaders decide to do that is something completely different. The only thing more disheartening for a soldier then watching a person say they don't support the reason they are fighting is to watch other people attack them for their freedom to say it. You know by attacking that freedom you are telling those soldiers that the reason we are fighting doesn't even exist. You tell them to fight for freedom yet every person that doesn't agree with the war you attack. Thats a damn shame.

You can agree with the war, but don't make us people who don't look like traitors. we are free to feel about this war however we want, and in the name of freedom, just deal with that.



Originally posted by grimreaper797
Well lets just see then, the 4th, a day to celebrate freedom. Hmmm


Thats right. Seems to be something you look down upon...freedom.



What is freedom? Is it the ability to get on a plane and go where you wish without having to worry about a bomb? How about going to a mall or market to get food without being blown up by a suicide bomber? You think these are not going to happen in America? Well I hope they do not, but we are at WAR. You do not pussyfoot around and nitpick the decisions made as it only aids the enemy. So how would you deal with the stated goal of these schmucks to collapse the great satan. How do you justify it to the troops when they come back to your neighborhood? I sure as hell bet you tell them to their face that the mission was wrong do you not? You tell them that their buddies died for naught right?


No actually thats not freedom, thats safety. Being able to get on a plane and make a choice knowing the risks, thats freedom. Saying "This plane could be taken by terrorists for all I know" then saying "Screw them I will go anyway. If they try to take it I will give the best fight I can to preserve my safety and others." Freedom is being able to choose when the decision is hard. Freedom allows courage, and courage is what allows this nation to be great.

I hope they don't but they will. I am sorry to tell you but death is a natural part to life. Eventually people will die. I don't want my freedom of choice, to do WHATEVER I want so long as I am not infringing on another persons basic rights, to be prevented because you are afraid to die. I don't need my government to protect me. I will protect me. If I can't protect myself, well then it was my time to go. Stop acting like death isn't suppose to be a part of life. People will die no matter what, thats what happens.

Now no we aren't at war now anymore then we were at war when we claimed "War On Drugs". This isn't a war. There is no territory. There is no common enemy. There is no army to fight against. There are just some criminals doing crimes, and we declared war on them. HAHA "war on crime" is what it is. A war that can't be won, ever. War On Al Qaeda is more reasonable, but war on terror, can never be won.

How would I deal with their goal to try and collapse the great satan? I would let them even TRY and come over here and start taking land. We would crush them the minute they took one foot of land. I would deal with them the EXACT same way I would deal with a murderer because thats all they are.

I do tell the troops that I don't agree with the Iraq war. I tell my neighbors about all the corruption and such in Iraq now. What I don't say is that the troops are wrong because they aren't. I will continue to tell the troops to continue following orders while we fight this war at home to get them back home. You act so patriotic, go join up. I would try to get you home as well because in the end, most of us don't want to fight. There are times where it is called for, but we still aim to end it as soon as possible.

You talk like your glad people are dying. Just because a war needs to be fought doesn't mean we should be vigilant to end it as soon as possible.



Well after all its a free country so you have the right to have your opinions as do I.

And I like to celebrate the freedoms that this day represents, both those already won and those the are yet to be won...


I celebrate the freedoms that were won in the past, even if your war means infringing on them. Let me tell you the freedoms yet to be won will be the same exact freedoms won 230 years ago. In order to have that happen, they have to be taken away, but given the current path people like you have us headed down it shouldn't be long till thats true.



posted on Jul, 4 2006 @ 02:17 PM
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how about the freedom to speak our minds, without being labeled as unpatriotic???

securing our borders would make us much safer than the war in Iraq has made us by the way.

so wouldn't getting a hold on our spending habits and showing some fiscal discipline. instead, we are making our childlren's lives very insecure with our massive debts!!
we keep going in this direction, none of our kids will have the money to pay taxi fare, let alone the money for a plane ticket!! they'll be working two full time jobs just to pay their taxes (our debt) and feed and house their families.

torture is not the american way!! regardless of what cheney and gonzalas says.

neither is having a president who signs off his obedience to many of the laws he signs thinking that the rest of us should have to obey!!

there are plenty of reason to criticise this president, and when it comes to troops not getting what they need to fight the war this president sent them to fight, by God speaking up on their behalf is supporting the troops!

so isn't encouraging this administration to stop messing around and start working at getting the job done so our troops can come home! at least if he had a timetable that he had to work with, maybe he'd be more apt to make sure the troops were able to achieve what is necessary instead of thinking the whole thing is about giving more $$$ to his friends?



posted on Jul, 4 2006 @ 02:18 PM
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Originally posted by edsinger

semantics...


I am free to order a airline ticket to go to Israel and visit. My security could not be guaranteed whilst there.


Our freedom as a nation was tested on 911. The enemy of freedom is terror. You do not leave your house if afraid you do not have security.....that is what this war is all about.

the ability of Americans to have the freedoms that they have come to expect, at a cost, that cost is what helps maintain the security in which you speak.


Either way, security and freedoms, they are both at risk in this new war......like it or not...

But be hopeful, we ARE winning.


I can't believe this. Maybe you don't ever leave your house, but I do. Security is not garenteed till you take away every freedom you have. I have news for you, you are still not safe. You are not going to be anymore safe until you start letting the government locking you in your house.

You can still get shot, you can still get robbed, and you can still get assaulted. Just because you aren't aware of the risk doesn't mean its not there. You can still get murdered as you go to work tomorrow, and now law will change that so long as you can make choices for yourself.

I will never be afraid to leave my house, because I am american. It sounds like you are a democrat to me. You say conservative but like the democrats you are for safety rather then freedom. Democrats want to take guns away to secure your safety. You want to take away freedoms to secure your safety. One in the same it seems so. As for us libertarians, we will take our chances with death because freedom is the american way.

If the enemy of freedom is terror then your fighting on terrors side. You are afraid to not be safe, therefor you are aiding terror. You are not free to not have to face the possible consequences of your decisions. Maybe taking that train to work will get you killed, thats your choice to face. Its not your choice to restrict the freedoms so much so you don't have to worry when you make a choice. You make a choice and deal with whatever comes, thats life.

Yep security and freedom are both at risk. Safety is at risk from the terrorists and freedom is at risk because of the people trying to fight terrorists. Unfortunately, one was never garenteed to us to begin with. (HINT: Freedom was garenteed in the declaration of independence, so that narrows your choices some)



posted on Jul, 4 2006 @ 02:20 PM
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Originally posted by grimreaper797
There is nothing that pisses me off more then when people use the 4th of July as a way to guilt me into feeling that I am some how unpatriotic because I don't support the current actions being taken. Why don't you stop trying to use a great day in american history to push your own little agenda.

I support the troops, especially the ones that are coming out of my own neighborhood. I don't support the Iraq war and it makes me sick to see you using the 4th of July, a day of independence and freedom, as a tool for you to push the Iraq war and make us feel less american if we don't support it.



The only guilt one can be "made" to feel is that which comes from within, ie: a basis must exist internally for another party external to the self in order to trigger the emotion.

edsinger certainly used his post to make a point about the detractors being WRONG about Iraq in general terms - however no where can I find that he called anyone un-patriotic.

Sighs.................

Ot of curiosity which day would be the correct one to call certain politicians un-patriotic? Armed Forces Day, opps I'm sorry should've used the politically correct term Memorial Day.

OPPS made the big mistake of forgetting that labels of any kind are not allowed in groupthink liberal modern USofA. What was I thinking.

Methinks the answer is going to trample my freedom of speech and independence of thought on this 4th of July, because the answer I expect is.... never irregardless of the action involved.

Allrighty back to the grill and beer thats now getting flat.



posted on Jul, 4 2006 @ 02:30 PM
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Originally posted by grimreaper797
alright look, I support the troops. I have 3 people just in my small neighborhood that or in iraq/afganistan right now. I write them each biweekly. You don't tell me about not supporting them. Everytime I write them I make sure they know that we all love them and wish nothing more then for them to do what they must and return home safe. They don't make decisions, they follow them. I support their actions, and their actions are to follow orders. I don't agree with the orders at all, but that doesn't mean I don't support the troops for doing it.


Well then you are the exception to the rule and I am sorry I thought otherwise.


Originally posted by grimreaper797yet every person that doesn't agree with the war you attack. Thats a damn shame.


No just those who attack my sense of what the 4th is about, simple fact.


Originally posted by grimreaper797
You can agree with the war, but don't make us people who don't look like traitors. we are free to feel about this war however we want, and in the name of freedom, just deal with that.


I am sure this makes these guys feel better when getting shot at. Traitors? No not most........You are free to feel about the war like you wish. Ironic that its the troops that are protecting that exact freedom, but you disagree with this mission.






Originally posted by grimreaper797

Thats right. Seems to be something you look down upon...freedom.


What is freedom? Is it the ability to get on a plane and go where you wish without having to worry about a bomb? How about going to a mall or market to get food without being blown up by a suicide bomber? You think these are not going to happen in America? Well I hope they do not, but we are at WAR. You do not pussyfoot around and nitpick the decisions made as it only aids the enemy. So how would you deal with the stated goal of these schmucks to collapse the great satan. How do you justify it to the troops when they come back to your neighborhood? I sure as hell bet you tell them to their face that the mission was wrong do you not? You tell them that their buddies died for naught right?



Not all all I love freedom and I realize what this war is about, it isn't about just WMDs and Oil, its about freedom. As a side note, I sure as hell hope it spreads in the Middle East because the security sure sucks there.


Originally posted by grimreaper797I don't need my government to protect me. I will protect me. If I can't protect myself, well then it was my time to go.


Precisely my point. You go after them guys would you.


Originally posted by grimreaper797 On Al Qaeda is more reasonable, but war on terror, can never be won.


But it can, and it is slowly but surely.....



Originally posted by grimreaper797
I do tell the troops that I don't agree with the Iraq war. I tell my neighbors about all the corruption and such in Iraq now. What I don't say is that the troops are wrong because they aren't. I will continue to tell the troops to continue following orders while we fight this war at home to get them back home. You act so patriotic, go join up. I would try to get you home as well because in the end, most of us don't want to fight. There are times where it is called for, but we still aim to end it as soon as possible.



I did join, at one time. I want them all to come home. But it is the big picture that eludes most sadly....



Originally posted by grimreaper797
You talk like your glad people are dying. Just because a war needs to be fought doesn't mean we should be vigilant to end it as soon as possible.
That is just plain crap. We do need to end it, but the war will not be won that quickly. If the American public keep getting just the bad news it will end in a lost and then we will have to fight it over again. I firmly believe we make our stand now...



Originally posted by grimreaper797
I celebrate the freedoms that were won in the past, even if your war means infringing on them. Let me tell you the freedoms yet to be won will be the same exact freedoms won 230 years ago. In order to have that happen, they have to be taken away, but given the current path people like you have us headed down it shouldn't be long till thats true.


Horsepucky - here we go with that patriot act crap again. We have lost some of our mobility but not our freedoms. These programs that the press likes to divulges just help the enemy. I don't give a fart whether the NSA tracks my phone calls, I have nothing to hide.......If you knew the rules the NSA had to work under, you would understand.....unless you intend to harm the US, then you have nothing to fear............ but fear itself (had to throw that in sorry)



posted on Jul, 4 2006 @ 02:44 PM
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Originally posted by dawnstarhow about the freedom to speak our minds, without being labeled as unpatriotic???


Labeled? Where? Speak your mind! The troops are right now defending that right, so speak away.........Yup , that sure is being in their corner alright......Detract their mission........




Originally posted by dawnstar
securing our borders would make us much safer than the war in Iraq has made us by the way.



Oh I disagree, sure the borders are an issue, but as a free society, we will never close the borders to terror...we cant.

But we sure as hell can take the war to them no?




Originally posted by dawnstarso wouldn't getting a hold on our spending habits and showing some fiscal discipline. instead, we are making our childlren's lives very insecure with our massive debts!!


Oh Horsepucky, 10 trillion in debt, with a 12 trillion GNP. I wish my financial picture was so good. Btw, the tax revenues are growing pretty damn quick as the economy expands........





Originally posted by dawnstar
we keep going in this direction, none of our kids will have the money to pay taxi fare, let alone the money for a plane ticket!! they'll be working two full time jobs just to pay their taxes (our debt) and feed and house their families.


Taxes in the US are lower than MOST of the western world. Horsepucky. Even the poor in this nation have cars and color TV's for the most part. Tell a Haitian how bad it is here and see what they say. Makes you wonder why we have to close the darn borders doesn't it?




Originally posted by dawnstar
torture is not the american way!! regardless of what cheney and gonzalas says.


Oh, yeah, treat these fanatics with kid gloves. I damn sure would not want to infringe upon their constitutional rights now would I? Oh wait, they don't have any. How about Nick Bergs Rights?




Originally posted by dawnstarneither is having a president who signs off his obedience to many of the laws he signs thinking that the rest of us should have to obey!!


Horsepucky!




Originally posted by dawnstarthere are plenty of reason to criticise this president, and when it comes to troops not getting what they need to fight the war this president sent them to fight, by God speaking up on their behalf is supporting the troops!




Oh why don't you get a hold of yourself. they have what they need for the most part. Its the bureaucracy that causes the delays. Armour for the HMMVV was the largest priority until they had enough. Quit reading the New York Times.




Originally posted by dawnstarso isn't encouraging this administration to stop messing around and start working at getting the job done so our troops can come home! at least if he had a timetable that he had to work with, maybe he'd be more apt to make sure the troops were able to achieve what is necessary instead of thinking the whole thing is about giving more $$$ to his friends?


True get them home soon but only when the JOB is DONE! Timetables are in the enemy's interest not ours.



posted on Jul, 4 2006 @ 02:49 PM
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Originally posted by grimreaper797

I can't believe this. Maybe you don't ever leave your house, but I do. Security is not garenteed till you take away every freedom you have. I have news for you, you are still not safe. You are not going to be anymore safe until you start letting the government locking you in your house.


I leave, quite a bit actually and its true I have no security in some sense, but I do know that the war against my nation is not being fought in the streets of America.....yet.

From that, I do feel secure. When the Lord calls me home, I will go as it is His timing not mine.

Freedoms? What freedoms have I lost? You mean if I use a debit Card that big brother is watching? When I use my cell that he is listening? So what? What a boring way to spend the day....

Its the computers that listen and looks for "%^$". Then the humans get involved.

What freedoms have I lost? None really that I even notice.....



posted on Jul, 4 2006 @ 02:52 PM
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Originally posted by edsinger
Well then you are the exception to the rule and I am sorry I thought otherwise.


thank you.


Originally posted by grimreaper797
No just those who attack my sense of what the 4th is about, simple fact.


Not what your sense of the 4th is about, its the fact you threw in attacks at people who didn't agree with the Iraq war. The Iraq war has nothing to do with the 4th of July. 4th of July is about the day we declared independence, not the day bush went to iraq. We as americans will often disagree of just about everything, but that does not change the fact that we all agree the fight that was fought from 1776 on was worth everything.


Originally posted by grimreaper797
I am sure this makes these guys feel better when getting shot at. Traitors? No not most........You are free to feel about the war like you wish. Ironic that its the troops that are protecting that exact freedom, but you disagree with this mission.


You know whats funny? Freedom would be no more secured if they were in Iraq as if they were home. You can say they are fighting for freedom all you want. I want nothing more then them to come home so they can celebrate the 4th of July instead of me just writting them a letter about it. That mission isn't about freedom. Freedom was never under attack. The terrorist can't attack freedom. They can attack your safety, but they can never attack your freedom. Remember that.



Originally posted by grimreaper797
Not all all I love freedom and I realize what this war is about, it isn't about just WMDs and Oil, its about freedom. As a side note, I sure as hell hope it spreads in the Middle East because the security sure sucks there.


If this war was about freedom, freedom would have had to be under attack. Freedom was never under attack, safety was. Any war fought in the name of safety will be a failed one. Pearl Harbor was an attack on our nation. 9/11 was a mass murder to attack safety. A group of murders killed a great many people that day. Pearl Harbor an organized military representing a country attack our military. That was a true attack on our nation. There is no doubt that if we didn't act Japan may have invaded Hawaii. Those terrorists will invade nothing. They will take no land and take no freedom. Our government is the ones attacking freedom, while the terrorists attack safety. Safety was never garenteed to americans though, freedom was.


Originally posted by grimreaper797
Precisely my point. You go after them guys would you.


I didn't quite get that but if you mean I would go after them, then yes. I would go after them so long as I knew my life is in danger. I am not going to go out of my way to make myself safe. I am not going to listen to peoples phone calls and tap their bank accounts in hopes I will catch a murderer. Screw that, I will live until I am confronted with it.


Originally posted by grimreaper797
But it can, and it is slowly but surely.....


you don't get it do you. Terrorism is just another word for political crime. Any person that kills in political or religious motivation is a terrorist. ANYBODY can be a terrorist. Anybody can one day just become a terrorist. You could wipe out every terrorist on the face of the earth and a week later, new terrorists will pop up. It is NEVER ENDING.


Originally posted by grimreaper797
I did join, at one time. I want them all to come home. But it is the big picture that eludes most sadly....


and what is the big picture to you? that we are fighting for freedom? What freedom was attacked?



Originally posted by grimreaper797
That is just plain crap. We do need to end it, but the war will not be won that quickly. If the American public keep getting just the bad news it will end in a lost and then we will have to fight it over again. I firmly believe we make our stand now...


I am all for staying in Iraq. I never said we should just pull out. I don't agree with the Iraq war at all, but I don't agree with leaving right this minute. We should leave soon though because we just can't do any more for the region. We need to start focusing at home. I am in New Jersey and I don't know if you heard but the state government is shut down. We have problems at home that are more important then a foreign country.


Originally posted by grimreaper797

Horsepucky - here we go with that patriot act crap again. We have lost some of our mobility but not our freedoms. These programs that the press likes to divulges just help the enemy. I don't give a fart whether the NSA tracks my phone calls, I have nothing to hide.......If you knew the rules the NSA had to work under, you would understand.....unless you intend to harm the US, then you have nothing to fear............ but fear itself (had to throw that in sorry)


They tell you your bank account is private and such. Then once the government gets involved it is suddenly considered public. You put money in the bank so you made it public. No one on here knows the "rules" the NSA work under. You are not privy to that information and neither am I. They treat us like little kids.

Fear itself is whats changing this country. Fear of terrorists is allowing them to. Fear of death is allowing them to. Stop being afraid, realize that your freedoms are worth more then safety. Thats what we choose as american citizens right? Freedom.



posted on Jul, 4 2006 @ 03:00 PM
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Originally posted by edsinger

Originally posted by grimreaper797

I can't believe this. Maybe you don't ever leave your house, but I do. Security is not garenteed till you take away every freedom you have. I have news for you, you are still not safe. You are not going to be anymore safe until you start letting the government locking you in your house.


I leave, quite a bit actually and its true I have no security in some sense, but I do know that the war against my nation is not being fought in the streets of America.....yet.

From that, I do feel secure. When the Lord calls me home, I will go as it is His timing not mine.

Freedoms? What freedoms have I lost? You mean if I use a debit Card that big brother is watching? When I use my cell that he is listening? So what? What a boring way to spend the day....

Its the computers that listen and looks for "%^$". Then the humans get involved.

What freedoms have I lost? None really that I even notice.....


Just because you feel secure doesn't mean you are.

Look I know that you don't see it now, and you might not ever. You don't have anything to worry about because you are for them. You seem more on their side, so they have nothing to worry about you. People like me though, a libertarian against government power, DOES have something to worry about. The more power you give them the more dangerous it is for the people oppossed to it.

Terrorist is a very flimsy label that can be used excessively. How easily the word terrorist can be applied to a person. I recommend reading The Crucible. Now instead of witches think terrorists.


(also the unpatriotic thing was when the initial post basically called me wrong for being against the war. When they are calling you wrong, its unpatriotic in nicer words. They are saying your wrong because this country is fighting for it.)



posted on Jul, 4 2006 @ 03:06 PM
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True Terrorism will always be there, on this day the 4th, some Brits would argue , convincingly I might add, that the pesky colonists were terrorists.


Its the war against Al qaeda in which I speak, it IS being won. Slowly but surely.



posted on Jul, 4 2006 @ 03:12 PM
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How is it being won?

Can you back up your statement? Or is it more meaningless jingoism?

Oh, and I mean *real evidence* and not opinions polls regarding how safe people in Utah feel after the death of a mastermind they had never heard of until they saw his corpse on Fox.



posted on Jul, 4 2006 @ 03:13 PM
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Originally posted by grimreaper797
There is nothing that pisses me off more then when people use the 4th of July as a way to guilt me into feeling that I am some how unpatriotic because I don't support the current actions being taken. Why don't you stop trying to use a great day in american history to push your own little agenda.

If you feel guilty, that's your own issue. Don't blame edsinger.

Instead of coming in here and crapping on his thread, why don't you go start your own Hate Bush thread?


I support the troops,

So does edsinger. More than you do, I'd wager. He supports them thru thick and thin; you only support feel-good causes.



posted on Jul, 4 2006 @ 03:14 PM
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Now, now boys.

Let's keep it pleasant.



posted on Jul, 4 2006 @ 03:17 PM
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Originally posted by edsinger
True Terrorism will always be there, on this day the 4th, some Brits would argue , convincingly I might add, that the pesky colonists were terrorists.


Its the war against Al qaeda in which I speak, it IS being won. Slowly but surely.

war against Al Qaeda is a different story. War against Al Qaeda is being won, but remember they are just a part of the war on terrorism. Why do you think they said terrorism? After Al Qaeda is completely destroyed, this war will still continue. I really do hope you see that.



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