My observations of things around us.

I'm starting a thread about what I have observed around me, without the use of religion, using logic. I think it's logic anyway.

- There is no good and evil, only cause and effect.
To me there seems to be no good and evil, only cause and effect. I'll call them positive actions and negative actions for awhile.
You will find that positive actions often lead to positive outcomes, but this is not always the case. For this reason, it gives the universe an even more neutral position in regards to 'good and bad'. The cause (positive) may not always lead to a positive effect, but it will always have an effect regardless. This also seems to strengthen my view of there being no good and bad, as if good were so clearly defined... then a good action would produce more definite results.
But thus far, 'good' actions are often unpredictable, leading one to think that they are not clearly defined by some set of rules in the book of good and bad, but are merely 'positive' or what is good for your or someone elses wellbeing, their effects being goverened by nothing but the cause.
A positive action will have an effect, a negative action will have an effect. Why define them seperately? Lets just say there is cause and effect.
Do we agree that positive actions will often bring positive results, but not always, but there will always be an effect?
Much as if you pick a card from a deck with 80% aces in it ( positive action ), chances are you will pick an ace ( Probable positive reaction ). But you have picked a card.( You have an effect regardless )
And so you place this mode of thinking into the world. You have rich businessmen caring only for themselves, stepping on others for more money. Sometimes their negative actions get them in trouble. Some live without incident.
You have the starving masses in some countries. People try to help them by sending food, which is a positive action. Some are strengthened by the food and are able to carry out work, and provide for their family who were going to die, which is positive. Maybe one of the family members kills someone, which is negative. Maybe the person that died would have destroyed the world if he wasn't killed.


We have now covered the topic of good and bad, or 'every action has a reaction' : )

Tell me i'm stupid, or confusing, or smart.
More to come i guess.

I agree with the reacting part. No right no wrong, just positive and negative.
We all can feel this negative and positive, whether its instilled since birth or
we learned it...who knows, but I know that when I do something wrong I can
feel it in my heart. Some people decide to ignore or simply dont have a heart.
But in the end....it all equals out. Kinda like a sine wave of energy....it goes up
and can only go down as far as it can go up.

- Our minds determine our reality.
We have NO IDEA of everything that is going on around us and can only take in a small portion at a time. There are unseen universes of atoms and molecules all around us, theres almost unlimited information in the form of OIOIOI travelling around the internet at every given second, the size of the universe is incomprehensible, as are the amount of other galaxies out there, and the mind boggling amount of atoms all comprising them. And this is only the physical world.
Where does this place you?
It places you somewhere amongst there as a tiny blip in the radar of existence, perceiving it only through your mind. I say mind and not brain, because although everyone has a brain, their mind is what differentiates them. Everyones reality is quite different from everyone elses. If our perception of reality depended on the brain, then we would all be very similar people.
But no, our perception of reality determines what we do, say, think, feel and how we act. And I think that's an important thing for that reason, our perception of reality.
Once you understand this, you shoudln't be bothered so much as to what other people say, or think about you. It is only their perceptive of reality. One always thinks they are right, given their model of the world.
And for this reason, you should always have an open mind and absorb as much of reality as you see it as you can. You should try and do this once you realise how little you know.
Once you have aquired enough knowledge about various aspects of reality as different minds may portray them, perhaps by even having experienced it yourself, you may better understand how others think and tick. This allows you to see things from 'different perspectives'
It is very important to try not to limit your own sense of reality, to exclude all elses! This is what leads to almost every conflict.
The bottom line is you know very little. So assume very little, and keep an open mind. I feel that one of the greatest secrets may be that our mind is reality itself. Which leads to the question what is the mind?

Originally posted by T0by
I'm starting a thread about what I have observed around me, without the use of religion, using logic. I think it's logic anyway.

- There is no good and evil, only cause and effect.
To me there seems to be no good and evil, only cause and effect. I'll call them positive actions and negative actions for awhile.
You will find that positive actions often lead to positive outcomes, but this is not always the case. For this reason, it gives the universe an even more neutral position in regards to 'good and bad'. The cause (positive) may not always lead to a positive effect, but it will always have an effect regardless. This also seems to strengthen my view of there being no good and bad, as if good were so clearly defined... then a good action would produce more definite results.
But thus far, 'good' actions are often unpredictable, leading one to think that they are not clearly defined by some set of rules in the book of good and bad, but are merely 'positive' or what is good for your or someone elses wellbeing, their effects being goverened by nothing but the cause.
A positive action will have an effect, a negative action will have an effect. Why define them seperately? Lets just say there is cause and effect.
Do we agree that positive actions will often bring positive results, but not always, but there will always be an effect?
Much as if you pick a card from a deck with 80% aces in it ( positive action ), chances are you will pick an ace ( Probable positive reaction ). But you have picked a card.( You have an effect regardless )
And so you place this mode of thinking into the world. You have rich businessmen caring only for themselves, stepping on others for more money. Sometimes their negative actions get them in trouble. Some live without incident.
You have the starving masses in some countries. People try to help them by sending food, which is a positive action. Some are strengthened by the food and are able to carry out work, and provide for their family who were going to die, which is positive. Maybe one of the family members kills someone, which is negative. Maybe the person that died would have destroyed the world if he wasn't killed.


We have now covered the topic of good and bad, or 'every action has a reaction' : )

Tell me i'm stupid, or confusing, or smart.
More to come i guess.

Am I correct in assuming you are no older than mid twenties?
I would personally bet somewhere around 19?


Save this piece and read it again in ten years, you'll either laugh or cry.

'but I know that when I do something wrong I can
feel it in my heart. Some people decide to ignore or simply dont have a heart.'

The key word is 'feel'! Does this make it real? Does it give power to the notion of good and bad if it is only a feeling?
I dont think many people ignore the negative things they may be doing, but have rationalised it in their minds somehow. Once that is done, there is no reason to feel guilty! Noone wakes up in the morning and thinks 'Hmm im going to be bad today'. They are always right, in ther minds. No guilt is needed.
You have ingrained in you a sense of right and wrong, which produces these feelings of guilt when your actions go against them.
Whether someone has these feelings or not, the effect will be the same, and the universe will continue ticking as it does.

Yep i'm 24. What brought that about? Was it my sometimes nonserious approach?
I'd love more explanation or an analysis of my ramblings.

Ive always wondered why people think if you live a "good" life then you are entilted to a positive outcome. THat when you live a "good " life and you dont end up with something positive, people declare that there is no good or evil because you could have gotten just as far with better results doing somehing "bad".

People dont realize that its not about you. If you loose your entire life for someone else thats the most valiant action of charity possible.

Undispubatly Christ led the most "perfectly good" life we have ever seen and look at his out come: CRUCIFIXION.

Originally posted by T0by
Yep i'm 24. What brought that about? Was it my sometimes nonserious approach?
I'd love more explanation or an analysis of my ramblings.

In my experience those who try that hard to show how "nuaced and sophisiticated" they are are usually neither.

Yes true.
But lets not forget the saying 'more people have died under the symbol of the cross than for any other reason'
Lets try and keep religion out of this though, all of that is unproven.

I admit i type differently in different situations, and i speak differently in different situations.
George bush will be formal on screen, whilst he may get drunk at a party elsewhere.
My language is appropriate for this occasion.
Now I know how it feels to have someone insult the character rather than their words, this is great! I always wondered how that felt when people on other threads talked about it being done to them
Can you elaborate more about what you disagree with that i said?

This is an old problem in moral philosophy, and like most philosophical problems, it has about as many solutions as there are philosophers who have considered it.

For what it's worth, here are my views.

You are correct in saying that the universe is morally neutral. In absolute terms, there is no good, neither is there evil.

Good and evil are terms that apply only to human actions and intentions. Some people apply them to individuals as well; I'm not sure if that is valid.

Actions are judged as good or evil not by their consequences, but by the intention behind them.

A good act is one undertaken with unmixedly good intentions toward all. It may well have evil consequences unforeseen by the actor, but that would merely make it an ill-advised or foolish act, not an evil one.

An evil act is one undertaken with deliberate intent to harm, or to benefit some parties in the full knowledge that others (or the commonweal) are likely to be harmed by it.

In this sense, good and evil most certainly do exist. It's just that they exist in human terms only, against the backdrop of a morally neutral, uncaring universe.

Originally posted by ShazamsChampion

Originally posted by T0by
Yep i'm 24. What brought that about?

In my experience those who try that hard to show how "nuaced and sophisiticated"...

Would that be 'nuanced and sophisticated', O Companion?

A less unkind way of putting it might have been:

Your innocence, TOby.

To know evil, one must first grow old.

Sorry if that sounds patronizing, but it is true.

[edit on 4-7-2006 by Astyanax]

[edit on 4-7-2006 by Astyanax]

I totally agree Astyanax, i have nothing to debate with you there.
By the way, i'm sorry if i sound like a know it all. I state alot of things as truth, but I know that they may not be. It is as how i see it.
It is alot easier typing in that fashion, than saying 'i feel, i believe, i think' and reminding the reader it's just my point of view.

Shazams, maybe you could look at it from my point of view.
I'm writing down thoughts and curious to see what other people think of them.
I would love some good debate, and might learn something new from it.
I'd also love to know what motivates you to write these things too. Like what's going on inside your head. Because this is what kind of thread this is


[edit on 4-7-2006 by T0by]

Stop attacking toby, and let the guy speak.
WTF !

I don't mind, i'll keep brainstorming unless over 50% of the people here hate it. lol
Actually i'd love all the criticism i can get, so that i can maybe learn from it. Just in case some of the things i think are totally screwed up.
I will disregard all critisism not backed up with logic though!

Keep going. I'm interested and shall keep reading.

Originally posted by T0by
Lets try and keep religion out of this though, all of that is unproven.

You do realize this thread is posted in Conspiracies in Religion don't you?

How can you post in this forum and then request to keep religion out of it?

I wasn't sure which other section to post it in.
Actually my first intention was to try and form a religion based entirely on logic but then i thought that's too hard. And just changed it to certain points about life that i find logical.
Thanks for reading those of you that have been. I'll just keep on writing more as i feel inspired.

Toby you are either an old soul, or you are a new one, im not sure, you are beginning to question things. that to me would constitute more mature behavior. but at the same time your responses seem to say, "i am young, but i want to be considered an old person, i am going to say that i appreciate every day and live life to it's fullest, but i only say that around my friends". either way i am just throwing that into the ring.

[edit on 6-7-2006 by Ford Farmer]