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Mind Control Technology

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posted on Jul, 11 2006 @ 11:20 PM
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If it can be seen, you can control and/or alter it. The brain can be seen. You can control and/or alter it.

What is the scope of U.S., alone and in combination with other governments, and "world government" influences on world citizen body and brain health functions? Are their influences large, medium, or small on a large, medium, or small number of humans?




posted on Jul, 12 2006 @ 11:13 AM
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Think of it more like having a fairly complex CPU with the lid off on a board in front of you. Something like a Pentium 4, with something like 55 million transistors. Now, it generally takes 2 to 6 transistors to store a state, depending on whether the thing is dynamic or static logic. So, let's say a P4 can have 10 million bits of state storage, not all of them accessible or useful.

You don't understand logic, say. You have this part, and you can change it and run programs on it. But you don't really know what a register is, or how the cache works, or how the ALUs or floating point hardware function. So you run programs, and you see stuff changing in the part, but it's pretty complex. Sometimes you make correlations that if you run math heavy programs, this area over here gets warmer, and if you move a lot of data around that area over there gets warmer. If you run photoshop, these bits warm up. So you make theories that this is the photoshop center, this is the winamp divide, that over there is the doom 3 region, and so on. Because you don't really have a clue what's going on, that's the best you can do.

So you start poking around in the part with a wire. Sure enough, if you poke in this area while you're running photoshop, the picture gets multicolored trash in it. So you conclude that you must have discovered the picture color center, and so on.

You also find that the processor emits AM radio noise when it runs, and that when you're running this scene in Quake, then you get this noise, and when you're running that spreadsheet in Excel, you get THIS noise. So you tell the world "I have correlated AM radio noise states with programs and soon I will be able to read its mind!". No such thing. Sure, you have correlated gross signal leakage patterns to somewhat specific activities. But its a long way from hearing Bzzz-sqeEEE-bluurrrt on the AM radio, and getting a listing of Excel in C.

So much farther too, from being able to get a big AM radio transmitter, aiming it at the processor and playing back the "photoshop noise" in order to make photoshop appear on the screen.

Yes, noise comes out, but the nature of the way noise is generated sort of precludes you re-impressing the generating states on the medium by pumping that noise back in.

Now multiply the difficulty by, say, a few trillion times, and you have the human brain.

[edit on 12-7-2006 by Tom Bedlam]

[edit on 12-7-2006 by Tom Bedlam]



posted on Jul, 12 2006 @ 02:55 PM
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all very true, but you don't need to understand how the CPU works to use a computer, do you? you'd f-ex soon enough fnd out what the reset button does, or how to manipulate voltage or clockspeed and multipliers, perhaps you may even be able to access the BIOS... use it circumvent security features and implement a new partition with your own OS to facilitate future operations.

just a silly analogy, though.



posted on Jul, 12 2006 @ 03:15 PM
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Except in this case, there's no display, no keyboard and no disk drives.

You HAVE no direct access to the software or hardware, unless you're the user, and even then you've only got limited access.

The evil reprogrammers can only diddle with the voltages, but they can't upload or download.

The analogy is pretty apt. You also have stored states, but they're only electrical in a limited sense, they're primarily chemical and structural. So, yes, you can hear bzz-SQeee-thump on the AM radio analogy...PET scans and EEG's, but there's no data content. You're only correlating mass activity by noting gross transitory behaviors.

And like loading a computer's software by spewing RF at it in a vain attempt to set gates and flip-flops, you can't just spew RF at a brain and reprogram it. Wreck it, overheat it, yes. Directly set memory structures, no.



posted on Jul, 13 2006 @ 01:26 AM
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Give someone amnesia, erase their memory, make up any history you want, put the subject into an environment which confirms this and.... Bingo, instant brain washed subject who only remebers and believes the lie you created for it....


Try this with any person that has suffered amnesia and can't remeber anything about his/her past. Can create any type of person you want the subject to be. Perfectly loyal subject until someone brainwashes him/her again, subject suddenly remebers orginial memory somehow or subject is intelligent enough to gather enough information by him/her self to see through the lie.

The military has not perfected it yet but is trying a more human approach. They try and break a recuits mind with stress and then re-educate the recuit into the militray doctrine. Probably does not work on the more intelligent soilders.

P.S. : this is just a theory, not facts.



posted on Jul, 13 2006 @ 05:30 PM
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This is sort of what I was alluding to earlier in the thread when I quoted someone's having said that control of history was control of the future.

Now memory is a complex thing, it's not like a tape recording or a bunch of electrons on floating gates like a flash stick. It's most likely to be chemical and structural, hell, long term memory may even be encoded in proteins, there's a lot of evidence both for and against. In order to "remove" "erase" or "reinstall" memory, you first have to find where it's stored, and it may be holographic, and then change all the storage mechanisms. Neuronal input weighting, dendritic attachments, working and scratchpad memory bouncing around in mostly electrical form, protein coding, how could you chase it down and kill it all?

It's a sure bet it isn't going to be a garage door opener you point at someone, press a button, their eyes light up colors and five seconds later they can fly an AH-6J or something.

In a more practical sense, how many people actually go to libraries now? When's the last time you hit the university or base technical library and crawled around in the stacks chasing down cites to some of these papers that you guys quote to each other? How many people won't believe something they don't see on Google?

I'll say this, we put up some web sites once, and quoted our sock puppet selves to prove a bogus point, as a test. People looked up our stuff on Google and took it at face value, for no other reason than that they saw it on an official looking web site indexed by Google.

What if you were a gubmint ofishul that wanted to do something similar, and you had 500 DISA wonks with time on their hands? How many unique web sites could they put up, pushing your particular meme? If it's on the net, and looks convincing, why it MUST be true, right?



posted on Jul, 13 2006 @ 07:38 PM
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How about Brainwave patterns?
As most people know our concious state, trance state, sleep states all have a unique brainwave frequency, Alpha, theta & beta? states of conciousness.
If you have used any brainwave generating tools like bwgen then you know that you can train your brain to go into these states at will.
The monroe institute who developed this technique have been mentioned by some in the MK ultra project & have a series of CD's that teach you to train your brain to allow you to remote view, astral project etc..
Hypnosis uses a similar method by taking the brain into the theta state a.k.a trance state (much like you are when watching tv) which is the highly suggestable state of conciousness.
What i am alluding to is that mind control is part of everyday life, George Romero the director of movies "Dawn of the dead" & "Day of the dead" made these movies because he realised that humans in general were just zombies walking around in a trance going through their everyday routines. We are the Zombies.
Now the conspiracy in this for me is are they manipulating our brainwave frequencies in general using ELF or is it just that the repetition of our daily lives means we go through it in an almost trance like state, highly suggestible & unaware?


[edit on 13-7-2006 by mclarenmp4]



posted on Jul, 13 2006 @ 08:47 PM
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Good comment, and again, like most brainwave data, what you're seeing is millions of neurons firing as they all go about different activity, and you're seeing waves of activation surging toward or away from the measuring electrodes, or at least you're seeing the projection of the directional component that's toward or away from them.

In a sense, it's like having the superdome full of people all having loud conversations, and you've got directional mikes outside. You can measure the wash of conversation back and forth across the dome. Topics are being flashed on the score board, let's say, but from outside with the mikes, you can't see them. If it's a funny joke, you might hear rapid spikes of activity outside as people first laugh, then discuss it and laugh again.

Some of the jokes only one side can see, so you hear waves of noise moving from one side to the other as the joke is passed on.

Sometimes they put up quotes from Schopenhauer, and then you hear a "zzz" wave as everyone is bored to sleep.

So back to the subject, sure, brain waves can be correlated to a type of activity that's going on at the gross level, but they don't tell you WHAT, at least not exactly. If you've messed about with the Munroe CD's much, you've no doubt picked up that you can be awake in theta, relaxed in beta etc, there are tricks to being in one state and doing something from another. Maybe not at full capacity, but theta doesn't require you to be asleep, it's just associated with it. I actually am quite fond of the Munroe stuff, not that I believe all of it.

As far as ELF goes, you can pretty much forget it as far as influencing people directly. I know that's anathema to speak around here, but the problem is one of wave physics. You can't easily radiate ELF, it takes a huge antenna and a lot of trickery to get it to propagate at all, because no matter how long your antenna is, it isn't going to be long enough to be efficient.

The flip side is, it's not easy to be a person sized object and actually ABSORB any, because of the disparity between the wavelength of ELF and your head.

Again, it's tough to actually propagate any, your efficiency is just freakin' terrible. I have several binders full of project info from a Navy ELF station, and while I'm too lazy to go to the archives and dig for it, not to mention if I look it's probably red jacketed, my recollection is that they were radiating something like 6 Watts, when all of it was said and done. So, you got this big facility, millions of Watts in, and when you got done losing all of it to various losses related to having too short an antenna, you end up radiating 6 measly Watts, about the same as a Christmas tree light. That's not a lot. And that's not anywhere near theta wave frequency, either. I can't imagine the structure you'd need for that.

In order to pick up nanovolts of this signal, NANOVOLTS of it, you have to trail a pretty dang long wire from the sub, if you're using a standard antenna. Some still do, as far as I know. Hundreds of feet. And because the antenna is not anywhere near long enough to be efficient, you only get nanovolts of signal. That's pretty tiny. There's a couple of other reception means that they use now instead of trailing long wires, but that's probably red jacket too. If you can find it on the net, more power to you, it's probably there. But both of them are extreme, very high tech that you could only afford for bubbleheads. You, as an antenna, are a lousy ELF receiver.

As far as going through life in theta, heck, for some jobs that's absolutely true. I would bet if you were to scope me when I'm in a 'work trance', you'd find I was doing it in delta or theta at least some of the time. Doing some of these designs you have to have hundreds of pieces of data in your head, all interrelating, and it might take me an hour to get going in the morning to "get the picture" again before I start. If I lose the thing, it will take me that long to "reload". And anything that startles me will do it, the phone, someone beating on the door, you name it, so most likely I'm in a light trance state in actuality.

Other jobs I've done, it's beta all the way. Interestingly, the two types of jobs don't seem to wear me out for each other. I can fart around inside a piece of equipment all day looking for a problem but then do designs all evening.

As far as zombie movies go, I prefer Shaun of the Dead.



posted on Jul, 14 2006 @ 11:03 PM
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Shaun of the dead created by Simon Pegg was based upon George Romero's movies, Simon grew up idolising George & actually gets a cameo in George's latest movie "Land of the dead".
If you look at the scene in Shaun of the dead where he goes to the shop just after everyone's turned, he doesn't notice all the people are zombies because they are going through the same routine they do everyday.
People in general are very much like zombies, me included.
We do our daily routines, getting up, grooming, work, lunch, work, tea, TV & bed.
I would say the average Joe is probably in a fully conscious state for maybe a quarter of a day, so for maybe 1/2 the day we're in a semi conscious state or trancing/dreaming whatever you want to call it.
This makes it easy to control the many because we are constantly bombarded with influential messages through advertising, tv, news, internet, radio & since there is a 50/50 chance of us being in a trance like state then it makes the chance of us being influenced by it a pretty safe bet.
From what I understand, it is theoretically possible with the advent of HARRP to generate the power required to broadcast ELF at reasonable amplitude to be a cause of concern for us, correct me if I’m wrong?
I also think that the ancient peoples of earth were much more advanced than us with regards to the manipulation of frequencies; one of my theories about how the great pyramid was built is this.
I remember reading a legend type story that druids who were quite active up where I live used to be able to move large slabs of limestone by simply striking the stone with their staffs; this would make the stone vibrate at a frequency that would make it almost lightweight thus making it a lot easier to move.
Now the great pyramid is made mostly of limestone, so if the legend is true & there are many similar stories around the world of people levitating stones then this would make the construction of the great pyramid a lot easier.
Ley lines are also keys to these structures, there is also a theory that the old kirks (small churches) are all built on key points on the ley lines & there is a geometry to these kirks & their relative positioning to each other, stone circles are often directly in line with these kirks.
What all this means? Who knows?
I think there are a lot more answers in esoteric knowledge than anything science currently can tell us with regards to the manipulation of frequencies.



posted on Jul, 14 2006 @ 11:11 PM
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Google "mind control technology" and you will find many people who believe that their mind was destroyed by direct-technology-to-brain-action. The USA promotes itself as the most free nation in the world. In fact, it may be the least free nation in world history.



posted on Jul, 14 2006 @ 11:41 PM
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Google for reactions to the advent of Marconi's wireless, and you'll find people that thought spark-gap radio was a mind control device.

It's a common delusion that goes along with schizophrenia. Sometimes it's the CIA, sometimes it's their dog giving them orders from Satan, voices from the drain, the wall socket, you name it.

No source of ELF is going to be efficient. Whatever the source is, you are still going to be the world's worst receiver for it. It's tough receiving Navy and Russian ELF intentionally; it's not the sort of thing you pick up with a crystal radio. By the way, the power line frequencies are in the same general frequency range as the Navy's transmitters. You get a lot more of that than you do from any other ELF source.


I think there are a lot more answers in esoteric knowledge than anything science currently can tell us with regards to the manipulation of frequencies.


I guess I'm on the far side of the opinion divide. I think it was all done with clever but mundane engineering, and I don't believe in esoteric knowledge at all. At least, I don't believe it has any affect on reality, and is just self-delusion. I'd love to see someone do something tangible and repeatable with esoteric knowledge, but so far no luck.

[edit on 14-7-2006 by Tom Bedlam]



posted on Jul, 15 2006 @ 03:19 AM
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Here's an interesting technology, which has great potential and seems to have gone rather quiet of late.



www.sound-ideas.com...
But there is another kind of sound recording that is even more realistic - Holophonic Sound. Developed in the 1980s by Hugo Zuccarelli, Holophonic Sound uses the same “multiple exposure” premise as that used to create holographic images (“holograms”). Holophonic Sound is produced by recording the interference pattern generated when the original recorded signal is combined with an inaudible digital reference signal. The recorded sound produced is so realistic, some people claim they can smell sulphur when they listen to a holophonic recording of someone striking a match! It appears that Holophonic Sound waves stimulate our brains to reproduce very realistic and truly three dimensional sound within us, thereby stimulating other corresponding responses that our brains expect to accompany the sound, (like scents or other sensations). Even more interesting is the fact that researchers report that some hearing impaired people can “hear” Holophonic Sound - again because it stimulates their brains even though their audio receiver mechanisms are not working properly.


That seems interesting. I wonder what would happen if you combined other information into that signal? Anyway, it seems to have dropped off the radar around the time this was announced.



www.zyn.com/
A live demonstration of a Holophonics spin-off recording will be performed at the FLC Far West Region Booth #608 at Technology 2000, Seattle, WA. Holophonics inventor Hugo Zuccarelli will be available to answer questions. He is also negotiating a CRADA* with Dr. Mike Sullivan, Naval Air Warfare Center - Weapons Division.

Zuccarelli Advanced Technologies of Woodland Hills, CA, the company that introduced the revolutionary technology in the 80's to the British Record Industry (Pink Floyd, Roger Waters, etc.) announced a new version of its Holophonics pick-up device, designed as a wearable detector. This device is now known as the Virtual Reality Sound Monitoring Device (VRSMD)

A long list of immediate Spin-on and Dual-use applications exist in areas of Medical Bionics, Safety, Intelligence, Robotics, Public Safety, Battlefield Safety Human Resources, Training and Education. Some specific examples include: Tri-dimensional hearing aids restoring the sense of normal hearing to a variety of deaf subjects, including hearing problems associated with the so-called "cocktail party effect;" Earthquake detection system for advance warning; VR Modeling and Simulation to enhance the realism on the virtual environment, such as in-flight simulators, battlefield conditions, and civilian transportation; Navigational systems for blind persons that can transform radar or laser information into 3D blips of sound; and 3D Sonic Periscope for tanks and armored vehicles.

*-CRADA:Common Research and Development Agreement


Strange, it sounded like he had some great technology that would've made it to market with a bit of development. Six years later, nothing, well next to nothing. Unless you want to buy an active denial system.



American Technologies
The LRAD™ 500 is a hailing and warning device developed to support public service organizations (police, fire, etc.) for communication needs to ensure safe and effective crowd control, building communication and special operation challenges.


NPR has a story on it (active denial systems) here

If you listen to the audio there, you'll hear it described as a "sound laser".

Audio samples of holophonics (best with headphones)
soundeffects.com...
matches being struck/shaken

Zucarelli's original patent (this only describes the construction of the dummy head for recording. The process of the digitaly superimposed reference signal is not covered).
patft.uspto.gov...

Would a device that allows deaf people to "hear" be considered mind control? If anyone has any info as to how the reference signal is used with that recording technique, that'd be cool.



posted on Jul, 15 2006 @ 04:46 AM
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wrt brainwaves and interference, i'd like to add a few things (without reference for now).

  • large antennae are not a problem if you can use a dispersed array (cell phone towers) see www.abovetopsecret.com... to see what i mean

  • absorption is also NOT A PROBLEM, a crystal radio can be used without a power supply, because it's using resconance absorption (search for 'resonating antenna' if you have to)

  • one CAN without a shadow of doubt INDUCE UNCONCIOUSNESS using weak electric current (requires electrodes, though) OR a strong magnetic field. it's not a stretch of imagination to conclude that EM waves can at least affect the brain. crudely perhaps, like a tranquilizer or a stimulant. maybe they even have a program for depression, which would be enough to throw most people off track, obvously.


    PS: wrt resonating antennae, it's a more or less universal principle, because otherwise a small atom or molecule couldn't catch thermal radiation, the underlying semi-active mode probably enables concious interference, although there's no way to tell how effective that would be.



  • posted on Jul, 15 2006 @ 12:03 PM
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    large antennae are not a problem if you can use a dispersed array


    Well, no. I don't think you quite have the idea on arrays. You can make the antenna APERTURE seem to be larger with an array. As an antenna, a phased array can thus be much more directional than otherwise. However, you can't sidestep physics and efficiently radiate long wavelengths with a little antenna using a scattered array. One of the reception techniques that doesn't use a long wire uses something a little LIKE an array, but it's not, at least in terms of the mathematics of arrays. Each array element has to be able to receive or transmit the wavelength in question.


    absorption is also NOT A PROBLEM, a crystal radio can be used without a power supply, because it's using resconance absorption


    You're wrong here too. A crystal radio can be used without a power supply because the crystal is non-linear. The non-linearity causes a product term to be 'exposed' in the math of the transfer function. This has the effect of producing a product of the carrier and both sidebands, and that's how the audio is recovered. Sorry, this stuff is real old tech and undergrad comm theory.


    one CAN without a shadow of doubt INDUCE UNCONCIOUSNESS using weak electric current


    You should visit some friend of yours that has an oscilloscope, touch the input. You'll see lots of 60Hz (ELF!!11!!) voltage on your skin, coupled in by the 60Hz E fields from the power lines all around you. (50Hz, if you're in GB). Or just stick your thumb on the input wire to a stereo. Hummm! That's genuine ELF, crawling all over you.

    Do you think it's making you unconscious? By the way, what's your definition of "weak electric current", because I think you're trying to extrapolate over several dozen orders of magnitude.


    because otherwise a small atom or molecule couldn't catch thermal radiation,


    Hm...I know of this effect you speak of, and mainly it's related to the atom being very small. The probability locus associated with its wavelike aspect becomes a larger "receiving antenna" than the particle aspect of the atom or molecule itself, in the same way that an electron in an orbital is everywhere and nowhere in its probability area. As the object becomes larger and particle aspects begin to dominate over wavelike aspects, this effect disappears.

    You should know that under some conditions an atom's nucleus can also capture particles in this manner, and can 'vacuum up' electrons from the k shell or nearby positrons, as well as thermal neutrons. Their probability function overlaps are just collapsed so that they localize inside the nucleus. Google for "k capture" and "neutron resonance capture".

    The characteristics of 'resonance' when applied to comm equipment is not perfectly congruent to mechanical and quantum resonances. You can't wildly extrapolate the term from one use to the other unless you understand it in both places. They are comparable, analogous, some of the math works for both but they are not identical.

    I think I remember that bit of garbage you're most likely reading...is this the guy that thinks you can put an electric charge on an antenna and make it seem larger? He's incorrect across the board, sadly. Nice sounding bit of bs but it's just wrong. You can try it yourself! Get a really good (which probably means old, sadly) SW radio, get you a really good high voltage cap on the antenna input to isolate the inside of the radio from your test charge, and charge your antenna! You'll notice NO DIFFERENCE. Bzzt! Wouldn't it be nice if that's the way it really worked? It isn't though, and the guy is just wrong.

    Trying to explain some of this stuff accurately is going to require me to start tossing differential equations stuffed full of complex numbers on the thread, it's probably not worth doing.

    [edit on 15-7-2006 by Tom Bedlam]



    posted on Jul, 15 2006 @ 12:53 PM
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    Holophonics. Haven't seen that brought up in a while. Well, here's you a challenge. Find out who the 'researchers' were that thought that deaf people could hear it. That ought to be your first step on any of this. In a lot of cases, a journalist will call anyone a researcher. Was this research published? Peer reviewed? Was the 'researcher' a lab assistant of Zuccarelli's? Perhaps a business manager? Doesn't the first quote you have there sound an awful lot like ad hype?

    There's a long list of similarly hyped tricks in recording from "deramic sound system" to "q sound", which is a lot like holophonics.

    There's a reason, by the way, that Zuccarelli's patent doesn't cover holophony, and that's because he didn't invent the thing. There's all sorts of poop on it, they just call it something else. Go look at "head related transfer function". Oh, here's something else interesting, but no mind control, sorry: alpha.ttt.bme.hu....

    Try googling for "holophony" and "holophonic" as well, lots of people doing current work in the field. A really neat sounding example: www.holophonic.ch..., this one works well with speakers if they're close and evenly spaced.

    One you might not be able to follow: www.york.ac.uk...

    Ambisonics, rubber-head binaural recordings (I've got an old red vinyl one from the late 50's around here somewhere) head-related transfer functions, surround sound, they all fall into the general holophony category. It helps a lot to sell your particular rubber head microphone if you surround it with a lot of hoopla. You might want to put down Dick Sutphen there and start looking for yourself.

    FWIW, LRAD and its successors are not the same thing, at all.

    We did some HRTF related stuff, expect to do some more. Not for mind control. In this case they were using really cranked out HRTF for audio cues in a test for a control panel.

    Imagine this. You're a Patriot missile operator. You've got on the HRTF warning system headphones. A missile is coming in from behind your position...so you hear the cue tone from behind you, far away, but moving closer. What do you think would give your subconscious more info, a tone that moves like the incoming missile, or "tweet tweet tweet" in your ear?

    PS: Some more url's on holophony, ambisonics and hrtfs that look technically ok at first glance, some are maybe past you but you can at least get the idea:

    profs.sci.univr.it...
    ejta.org... (a ton of other references here)

    www.aes.fi... (look at topic categories for spatial rendering and spatial effects)

    www.aes.org... (In general, AES is a good place to start, here's a paper on holophony from 2002. $20 and it's yours to download)

    www.cs.tut.fi... (Another one that may be too mathematical, but you can get a LOT of neat general info from. Check out the bottom right side of page 9 where they briefly hit on the forbidden, secret holophonic technique...in 2005)

    There's tens of thousands of references even on the net. You can also go toss out some money and get lots and LOTS of published works on DSP processing of HRTFs, ambisonics and holophony.

    [edit on 15-7-2006 by Tom Bedlam]



    posted on Jul, 15 2006 @ 01:15 PM
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    by weak current (DC, while using proper electrodes so the skin doesn't take all the load and penetration is achieved) i mean microamps, by strong magnetic fields i mean several kilogauss (or dozens of tesla if you prefer)

    if you're using a a yagi-uda, f-ex, then you're not calling individual rods antennae either, you're looking at the whole picture, if you're burying large parts of your antenna and only stick a few 'cell phone towers' out, you're still using a larger antenna if they're combined correctly.

    i told you what to look for if you're interested, resonating antenna, 'energy sucking' antenna (dumbest term ever) are the keywords to go by. in short, i'd say that your atom, being quantum undefined and whatnot can still only be in one place at a time, absorption rates should therefore be low for longer wavelengths last time i checked items weren't transparent, so there is a slight problem...

    as for crystal radios, how large is the receiver? how much radiated energy will reach it conventionally? long wavelength, small antenna, low power, is it enough to drive headphones, using the conventional view?



    posted on Jul, 15 2006 @ 02:04 PM
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    by weak current (DC, while using proper electrodes so the skin doesn't take all the load and penetration is achieved) i mean microamps,


    I'd be real interested in seeing a 'real' i.e. peer-reviewed cite on microamps applied to the skin causing unconsciousness. But at any rate, you're still probably 6-10 orders of magnitude off, from what you receive from an ELF transmission.


    if you're using a a yagi-uda, f-ex, then you're not calling individual rods antennae either, you're looking at the whole picture, if you're burying large parts of your antenna and only stick a few 'cell phone towers' out, you're still using a larger antenna if they're combined correctly.


    Sigh. No, no you're not. No matter how you try to make this work, it's not going to. You can't make an ELF antenna by having cell phone towers phased together in some way trying to make a long baseline interferometer out of it or something.

    The source you're trying to quote from seems to be conflating a leaky waveguide antenna and some eeeevil cell phone conspiracy using cell phones as the waveguide leaks. No. Won't work. You could, I guess, bury the antenna (for ELF you can, depending on the terrain it may actually be more efficient this way) in toto. Note that you don't necessarily need the "cell phone towers" in this case.

    You seem to be trying to claim that the cell phone towers can be used as a sort of 'leaky waveguide' emitter for ELF, because a secret ELF antenna cable is buried beneath them, linking them all together. But then you also seem to be trying to say that you can just combine them into some sort of long baseline interferometer which somehow simulates a single long emitter, and do away with the transmitter and cable. You can't make that hop, because an array requires each element to be able to transmit or receive the frequency in question, and that ain't happening with a cell phone tower.

    So, it's either
    a) there's a secret ELF evil transmitter that is constructed like a leaky waveguide radiator (holy crap the dimensions on the thing are outrageous, another issue) and uses cell phone towers for the leaks. This is just unnecessary on so many levels, and would be hideously more inefficient than the thing already is.

    or (exclusively)

    b) through elfin magic, there's some way that cell phone towers can be aggregated to form a larger radiator not a larger aperture. This is just wrong, and is a misunderstanding of antenna arrays by someone.

    At any rate, there's no need for [a], because it's true that ELF transmitters exist. I'm not sure what the allure is here for conflating cell phone towers and ELF.


    i told you what to look for if you're interested, resonating antenna, 'energy sucking' antenna (dumbest term ever) are the keywords to go by.


    Dude, I have a masters in comm theory. I know antennas. I understand resonance in receiving circuits. I've made a nice living understanding it, and getting the thing right. You're going to be hard put to stump me on this. At any rate, if you think Mr Charged Antenna is right, then trying it out for yourself sounds like a great idea. Let me know how that goes, don't spend a lot of money on it, btw, because you're going to be disappointed.


    in short, i'd say that your atom, being quantum undefined and whatnot can still only be in one place at a time, absorption rates should therefore be low for longer wavelengths last time i checked items weren't transparent, so there is a slight problem...


    No, it's quite unintuitive, but that's the way it works. It doesn't have to be "transparent", a concept that doesn't have a lot of meaning at an atomic level. This quantum stuff is all probabilities. This is how it works. Hey, don't trust me, drop over to physorg or something similar and post your question, you'll get the same answer. Or do maybe four years and get a physics undergrad, they cover it there too.

    Here's a related question to ponder. How does it know what to emit? When? The electron changes quantum levels instantly. Does the photon come out first? If so, how does it know what wavelength to be? Can the electron change quantum state and THEN emit the photon? No. So, when does it happen, and how does it know what wavelength to be? This was a real question, for about a week. The answer is a mess of probability mechanics.


    as for crystal radios, how large is the receiver?


    As large as you make it. The longer the antenna, the more output you get.


    how much radiated energy will reach it conventionally?


    Depends on a LOT of variables. How large did you make it? How is the antenna oriented? What is the wavelength? What sort of antenna does the transmitter have? How far away? What's the ERP in your direction etc etc


    is it enough to drive headphones, using the conventional view?


    Yes. Obviously, you are going to need very efficient headphones (8 ohm jobs won't do), and the station will need to be close, high powered or you will need a whopping good antenna, or all of the above. Ever made one? It's not like you are going to blow your ears out with one.

    There's a pretty straightforward calculation that will give you the power available at a certain distance and wavelength from an isotropic radiator. If you capture this power efficiently with a long antenna of an appropriate wavelength, use a high Q tank circuit for a tuner (this gives you voltage gain as well as selectivity...here's your "resonance", although it's a calculable mathematical thing and not mumbo-jumbo) and a whacking good set of headphones, you can get enough output to hear. You generally won't get more than a few microWatts of even strong stations, even so.

    You can get some pretty thorough books on the subject that are real and not bizarre fantasy, some are listed here www.midnightscience.com....


    ps. I just saw the website I think you're citing...the "all receivers are Tesla power receivers" one? Sigh. All these guys frantically try to convolve everything they read to make some point. You don't need to invoke Bohren, Tesla and Pythagoras's magic music of the spheres to make a crystal radio.

    You can build your own little flea powered transmitter, measure the output power and frequency, then build little crystal receivers for it and as if by magic, the power you can measure with nice sensitive microAmmeters and milliVoltmeters will be within measurement error of the 'how much power is at this radius and wavelength from an isotropic radiator" equation.


    [edit on 15-7-2006 by Tom Bedlam]



    posted on Jul, 16 2006 @ 05:28 AM
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    concerning EM anesthesia: if nerves have electric properties, they can certainly react to external influence, current is doing that directly, magnetic field presumably does it via hall effect. note that i can't proove this either way so if you don't buy it at all that's fine by me. perhaps you'll run across something that reminds you of my posts later on, perhaps i'm just a crackpot, oh well.

    about 'ELF' towers... i don't know what they're doing, but 20 towers per mile is a bit strange, isn't it? of course jumping to 'omg! mind control' conclusions is premature and hysterical, the question remains, though what are these people doing with so many towers, i have a hard time believing they need them for cellphones.

    perhaps it's a shorter wavelength, perhaps they just got their map's scale wrong and are using 100 yds/in instead of a mile... dunno.


    Now, i do have a link about resonating antennae. if you're into EE, you will certainly be able to either confirm or debunk it.



    posted on Jul, 16 2006 @ 01:57 PM
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    ...concerning EM anesthesia: if nerves have electric properties, they can certainly react to external influence, current is doing that directly


    This is sort of what I was trying to go over earlier...nerves don't transmit electricity like a wire, it's more like a bunch of people doing the "wave" only instead of bowing they're opening and closing little valves that let sodium and potassium in and out of the cell membrane. There's a potential wave but not a conducted charge. You see the rate of change of potential not a conducted current. You can cause them to fire by applying a current and screwing with the membranes but it's not their normal means of communicating.

    So, in a sense they have 'electric properties' but not as directly as a lot of popularized material tries to convey.

    At any rate, I have indeed seen something along the lines of what you're discussing, but it wasn't microamps, it was tens to hundreds of milliAmps. The term you're looking for is "electronarcosis". NASA was big into this in the sixties as a way for the astronauts to get a lot of sleep in a short period of time. That's why I said you were off by a dozen orders of magnitude between what your body could possibly intercept from an ELF broadcast to a technology that actually gets the job done. You just can't DO it with external application of microAmps, otherwise every time you static zapped yourself you'd be having seizures.

    Interesting trivia: National Semiconductor bought up and/or filed a WAD of patents on this, and at one time were going to introduce a home appliance to let you get a full night's sleep in an hour.

    Boring trivia: If you ever saw the pilot movie for "6 Million Dollar Man", Steve Austin is hooked to an almost accurately depicted rig at the close of the movie for 'storage'.

    Relevant trivia: We were interested in it for other reasons (yes, they were somewhat nefarious reasons) because a professor at U Dublin had a theory with some data to back him up. He believed that the reason that you got 8 hours of sleep in 1 hour was not because you were actually sleeping, but were in a deep hypnotic trance, and since you were EXPECTING to get all this rest, you did, but only due to suggestion. I went over and met with the guy, got some of his papers, watched him do the trick, but in the end he was the only guy that thought it. Mainly, he had fallen into the trap of seeing what he wanted out of it rather than what was there. No one else could replicate it. His stuff took something like 10-100mA of current, not microAmps. His colleagues thought he was a 'tard. I'd have to say his technique was sort of disorganized.






    about 'ELF' towers... i don't know what they're doing, but 20 towers per mile is a bit strange, isn't it?


    Maybe, maybe not. Around here we have a sack of carriers, they all have their own towers. They're all over the place, but they're on 5 different networks. You also have other limitations that might require them to increase density. For example, a tower can service only so many calls at once (ever been dropped or couldn't get an assignment at rush hour?) so they add in more towers for peak loads. Also, with the new small GSM handhelds, the phones themselves when on internal battery don't have nearly as much range as the towers do, so you have to space the towers more closely in urban areas so that the phones can reach the tower. Also, in urban areas you have a lot of building reflections, so it may be necessary to have more towers with lower power in order to get into all the 'urban canyons'. Some places are just natural dead zones, too, for reasons I don't understand. You have to put towers inside or very close to not have a bunch of drop connection complaints.

    Back to the ELF side of it, if your theory was right, 20 towers per mile would not be a plus for you, it would be a minus. The spacing on arrays between elements is not just some random decorative choice. Depending on what you're doing with it, and the antenna design, it's rarely less than 1/16 of a wavelength, and it's usually more like 1/4.

    The Russians use 82Hz for their ELF. At 82 Hz, a quarter wavelength is about 568 miles. 20 towers per mile wouldn't be useful or realistic.

    Theta frequencies are around 4 Hz, a quarter wavelength would be almost 12,000 miles. ELF is real, real, long.


    Now, i do have a link about resonating antennae. if you're into EE, you will certainly be able to either confirm or debunk it.


    Yeah, that's the one I thought you were looking at, the one that tries to tie everything from Tesla to Bohren together in one grand unified EM theory. I've already hit the "how can atoms emit photons larger than their diameter" point. That one and the one about how does the photon know what wavelength to be were actually addressed in a long debate between Einstein and Bohr. He is also into the "wires are too thin to absorb EM" thing. Ok. That doesn't make any sense on the face of it. The wire can certainly be an inefficient length, like your head vs ELF of 4 Hz, in which case the amount absorbed will closely approximate to zero. But to EM, the length of the wire, if that's the plane of polarization, is what counts. Not the width of it, which pops in as a term that sets inductance but not as an amplitude limiting factor.

    If the wave was polarized vertically and I had the wire horizontally, yes, I wouldn't pick up much, because the wire would look 'short' to the wave.

    Anyway, that's the first two things I hit. To go through this and hit every point would take forever, and I'd have to resort to math that maybe one person on the forum would understand. Why should I take a month to beat this guy to death? It's a lot of work.

    Grant you, some of it does look interesting, not from a 'OMG, a revelation!' point of view, but more like solving one of those math riddles, like the DREAD guy saying a sling doesn't cause a Newtonian reaction (he's wrong, but it was fun to prove). Some of the stuff I see is trivial to dismiss, but other points are sort of interesting, like that opamp circuit. I don't know the guys that did the design. He's misinterpreting some of what it says, and he doesn't present the text of the patent, at least not before I quit looking.

    Oh, just for fun, when you see people like your buddy here go into a list of patent citations and use them for proof that the patent is thus related to that, run, don't walk away. Cites are more likely to be used in a disproof, at least that's what I do with them. You most definitely DON'T want to go, oh, patent 4,234,225 is just like mine. No, it's always "Youngerford (4,234,225) presents an apparently similar design for claim 3, but it is irrelevant due to our use of plasmon state pinning as shown in Fig 23". The entire point of using citations is to show that your invention either isn't related, or is an improvement. You're trying to forestall the examiner's finding the same material and using it against you.

    You see people toss out naked patent cites in conspiracy theory when they don't understand the material, or they would spell out how it relates in the body of the patent in order to provide support for their theories, e.g. the patent has a Bohren cite, therefore Bohren must be related to ELF reception. Note that he does not. So either he doesn't understand it, or he knows it's irrelevant and he's trying to snow you.

    ps, I'll probably go through that opamp circuit he's got right at the first, just because it looks interesting and the authors were from NASA, they probably are not cranks. So there may be something there to learn, just as a design trick.

    [edit on 16-7-2006 by Tom Bedlam]



    posted on Jul, 17 2006 @ 04:21 AM
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    I know the guy i linked loves to attribute everything to Tesla and draws funny conclusions (f-ex. a wire can't gather wave energy because it's too thin..) but i was only interested in transmitting in phase with the incoming wave. i ran across this after seeing slight variations of the theme popping up in ever more locations and the principle behind it does seem straightforward and simple, actually.

    about bioelectricity... what are people measuring when they're doing an EEG or ECG? how do people and animals maintain voltage differences between different spots on the skin without a current? nerve impulse transmission doesn't need to result in net current to be susceptible to induced currents, does it? besides, it seems fairly obvious that we're electric creatures, otherwise AC wouldn't kill before cooking the victim, but it does.

    about wavelengths of ELF signals and cellphone towers: since i haven't seen such an alledged 'array' myself, i have to agree with you, nothing conclusive here.



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