Seattle mother arrested for "kidnapping" her own baby to seek alternative treatments

MMMMkay.... a couple of points hit me here:

Firstly, this statement from the mother:

After Carlsen's court appearance this morning her friend, Megan Tormey, said she was angry that it took four days to get Carlsen a working breast pump in jail. "If the doctors were so concerned about Riley's health, why weren't they demanding his milk?" she said.

This is actually a rather telling statement -- but NOT in the way you think it is.

The baby is 9 months old.

The protective factors in the mother's milk runs out after about six weeks of nursing. By 6 months, most infants are interested in chewing and want to try semisolid food. By 9 months, most infants worldwide are being given "adult foods"... because our bodies have adapted to a birth cycle of babies being roughly 9-12 months apart.

You can't nurse three children simultaneously. Ther's not enough mammary glands and the energy drain on a woman to become a "milk cow" and produce milk for a number of infants and toddlers is enormous (and part of the underlying reason why in primitive cultures twins are considered unlucky.)

The mom's snipe there at the doctors shows that whoever she's getting her medical advice from has some flaws in basic health.

She belongs to a group that believes in some form of natural care. I did a bit more research and found this:
www.king5.com...

The baby's father says Carlsen believes in a natural form of care. She now has a group with similar belief's behind her, although one member of the group has reportedly been under investigation by the Department of Health.

...

While they say they have good intentions, according to published reports, Debra O'Connor is described as a midwife who take natural childbirth to the extreme. She has been under investigation for her connection to the deaths of three babies

So the group offering this advice has already tried its own methods, which resulted in the deaths of three infants in the group within the past few years.

It's a small group. 3 infant deaths in 100,000 births would be tragic but expected. 3 deaths in 20 births means something is terribly wrong and that they apparently don't recognize life-threatening situations when they see them.

CPS had stepped in to take the baby away from the couple (so someone ratted them out and someone saw something that concerned them) :
www.king5.com...

So ...
* we have a baby whose condition was known at birth.
* the docs had said from birth he would eventually need a transplant and/or dialysis.
* at some recent point the baby was sick enough to require hospitalization.
* the baby has had a feeding tube inserted in his abdomen. This is done when the child can't eat and may not have been eating (in these cases the child often vomits up everything he's given to eat, so the "mother's milk" is really not an issue here.)
* the group that the mother is involved with which promotes "naturopathic treatments" has already had 3 infant deaths.

Now... humor me for a moment -- let's look at naturopathic treatments for something we all know about and that can sometimes require medical intervention: kidney stones.
www.google.com...

If you explore the pages, you'll notice that there's not a consistant recommendation and there's not even a consistant dosage recommendation. So one site recommends bayberry (in unspecified quantities), another recommends Cantharis, another recommends fasting and vitamin C, another recommends no proteins (a dangerous recommendation for a child!), another recommends vitamin B6 instead of C, aromatherapy (go smell something and your kidney stones will get better), and on and on and on.

There's nothing consistant.

There's no "we ran this treatment on 2,000 people and here's what hapened to them" reports.

All we have is a group that has already managed to kill three of its children recommending treatments and practitioners to a set of parents with a child that has a severe medical condition.

Riley has some form of chronic renal failure that at some point (shortly in the future) will tip over into acute renal failure: www.kidney-failure-symptoms.com...

Scan that list of symptoms -- bleeding, blood in stools or vomit, easy bruising.


Now... review your mental checklist of what a baby who's been physically beaten by his parents might look like. Yep... blood in the diaper, brusing. CPS may have been sent out because someone thought the parents were beating the child.

The issue of when the state should step in is a dicey one at best. There's no doubt they prevented many deaths, but they get hammered when they step in (stealing children from their parents!) and hammered when they don't step in (why didn't you keep this baby away from that psychotic mother!)

Until we develop better methods of predicting the future, I doubt the matter will be resolved to anyone's satisfaction.

I am imbalanced. But you guys figured it out already.
Would love to change it to something else but dont know
how

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Agreed, with the state of the Pharma industry, and over prescribing of medicine for profit, I expect it to be a big part of the NWO. With one man's ability to say "I know what's best, you have to come with us. "


That's why when I broke my leg I walked around for 6 weeks with a splint fashioned from a broken broomstick and duct tape. Them docters cain't be trusted!

you are joking..?

Some might say the 'group' that is treating her child now (Read MDs ) are responsible for a whole lot more than just three deaths.

What ARE the 'pecentages' now for surviving cancer and 'chemo'?

To listen to/see the marketing glossies... One would think MDs HAVE the answers. The reality is just slightly different...

>The protective factors in the mother's milk runs out after about six weeks of nursing.



Is it just me... Byrd, you almost sound somewhat anti-nursing...

Somewhat as an aside, does anyone have the figures handy of just exactly how many babies 'Gerber' has killed? Shhh... That is supposed to be a secret. Just keep looking at the picture of the pretty baby on the label.

So you think 9 months is too long to nurse?

I guess than you're not a big fan of the Lindsay Wagner then?

Byrd says:

"Now... review your mental checklist of what a baby who's been physically beaten by his parents might look like. Yep... blood in the diaper, brusing. CPS may have been sent out because someone thought the parents were beating the child.


Sorry, there is absolutely no mention as to this in any of the articles. This is pure speculation on your part.

Lets deal with the facts.

sad story

all i can say is if you try to take my kid away from me because of your Opinions

Ill fight to the end to protect my child and my family

No, i dont care what opinion you think gives you the right to infringe on my family, because ill make an opinion that will directly infringe back agianst you

I have a kid, and im Extremely defensive

Famous Last words?

Dont mess with this Texan

This article upsets me to no end

So what if the child dies due to the mothers miscalculations
Its called Natural Selection, Get used to it, thats how things work on earth

mind ur own buisness stay outta mine

Originally posted by Byrd
She belongs to a group that believes in some form of natural care. I did a bit more research and found this:
www.king5.com...
So the group offering this advice has already tried its own methods, which resulted in the deaths of three infants in the group within the past few years.

It's a small group. 3 infant deaths in 100,000 births would be tragic but expected. 3 deaths in 20 births means something is terribly wrong and that they apparently don't recognize life-threatening situations when they see them.

Hi Byrd

regardless of 3:20 ratio over a few years, this is about choice. The parents who kidnapped their child from hospital were told 'without the treatment', the child would die. The child is still alive today. The child would not have survived another dose of chemo. I will search for the case and post it asap. It really is informative reading! Aside from that, I feel as a parent, I have the right to choose what is right for my children. And that at the end of the day is what this is about.

As for CPS...they state they knew from birth that the child had kidney problems...then why would it be a question of child abuse? Seems odd. Sure, if no history then it would be logical/question of child abuse. But this child has history of kidney problems. So the ratting? doesnt seem right plausible.

Now... humor me for a moment -- let's look at naturopathic treatments for something we all know about and that can sometimes require medical intervention: kidney stones

This is a fine line IMO...there are risks no matter what therapy you decide to go with.

My money is on holistic approach. But that is based on individual experience. For eg...my daughter was diagnosed with a 23% curvature in her spine, the orthopedic spec said, come back in a year. At over 25% they operate to put huntington something rod in the spine. I asked him..what can I do in the meantime? He said... Nothing. 300 dollars for nothing..I asked him what about physio or chiro? He said No. Wont make a dif. I swear on my own life..this is the truth. I went to a chiro the next day, showed him her xrays and asked ...is there anything that can be done? He gave me a list of things to do. 5 years of chiro and my daughters spine is perfect. (??? ) Now what if I had listened? My daughter would have had a metal rod bolted to her spine.

People should have the right to choose.

The issue of when the state should step in is a dicey one at best. There's no doubt they prevented many deaths, but they get hammered when they step in (stealing children from their parents!) and hammered when they don't step in (why didn't you keep this baby away from that psychotic mother!

I agree... over here the law/medical world upholds religous beliefs in AU...(bear with me) so that if your religion doesnt support blood trans..then quite simply..you dont have to have it! (again ???) what a double standard. There is a well known case over here where a young teenager died because she refused transfusion. The parents authority sealed her fate. She died. It became quite a famous case for the principle of causation. Perhaps these people should have relied on religious grounds rather than holistic methods? The system has too much power and all it takes is ONE Doc's recom and thats it. Your pushing excrement up hill to reverse the decision. I have just endured an incident where parents didnt want an autopsy....too bad. Went to Court and the State won. There was no question of cause of death, regardless the autopsy is a SOP... if is a very difficult area.

I do believe the Parents have the right to choose what they think is best for their own kids.....

agian ill state my case

Natural Selection

Who are you to save the antelope from the lion?

Originally posted by bsl4doc
Imbalanced: That's exactly my point. Why is what this mother did any different than speeding with your child on your lap? Both recklessly endanger the child.

Skadi: I don't think you understand public health. The patient DOES NOT RECEIVE A BILL. The USA is the ONLY western nation without socialized medicine. You are stuck in an old mindset of the haves and have nots. Also, what sort of position are you in that you have "seen" doctors prescribe placebos? Do you work for the "evil" modern medicine people? Because otherwise, you would have no way of knowing if it was a sucrose pill or not, so I think you're ful,l of it. Let's see...who would know more about this...someone who actually can write prescriptions and works in a public hospital...or someone biased against all of us with MD after our name...hrmmm....

Mariella

I just looked at your loacation. You are in |Italy. That explains much.

In the US we do not have public health. I dont think it would make much of a difference if we did.

My mother worked for the medical Industrial Complex for much of her life. So did my grandmother. Both agreed it was pretty sickening and ethically bankrupt, and that modern medicine treats people like faceless machines to be diagnosed, recieve a standard treatment without regard for the whole unique being.

Who would know more about this? Someone who lives in the U.S. where placebos still are prescribed on occasion. hmmmmmmmmmm?

Thats life in a liberal utopia.
Its what happens when a nanny state has to "protect us" from the consequences of our own actions.

Mod Edit: Big Quote – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 4/7/2006 by Mirthful Me]

Originally posted by muzzleflash
So what if the child dies due to the mothers miscalculations
Its called Natural Selection, Get used to it, thats how things work on earth.

Ah, how we might take comfort from that, if only we could be sure that the tendency to inflict potentially fatal crank theories of medicine on one's offspring were an inherited characteristic.

Alas, it is probably just as likely to be a product of nurture.

Originally posted by golemina
Some might say the 'group' that is treating her child now (Read MDs

) are responsible for a whole lot more than just three deaths.

What ARE the 'pecentages' now for surviving cancer and 'chemo'?

Let's compare apples to apples, and talk about surviving kidney failure.
answers.google.com...

Translation: there's a 0% chance of surviving kidney failure.

Life expectancy is measured on the average in months or a few years (2.4 years average, if not in end state renal failure.) During this time the urea buildup (if untreated by dyalisis) damages organs.

Is it just me... Byrd, you almost sound somewhat anti-nursing...

It's just you. I breastfed my children and joined the La Leche league.

I guess than you're not a big fan of the Lindsay Wagner then?

The woman can breastfeed them until they're 20 if she likes. But that still doesn't discount the basic chemistry here: immunity factors are passed along in the breast milk for a limited time and there's no additional benefit to the child from nursing longer.

Originally posted by NJE777
As for CPS...they state they knew from birth that the child had kidney problems...then why would it be a question of child abuse?

CPS probably didn't know. And if you weren't aware, disabled children are at a greater risk for abuse. I suspect whoever turned them in may have seen bloody stools, vomiting, and/or bruising on the baby.

My money is on holistic approach. But that is based on individual experience.

(for the record, I also have scoliosis) But this wasn't a condition that limited her life expectancy to 2 years or less.

I agree... over here the law/medical world upholds religous beliefs in AU...(bear with me) so that if your religion doesnt support blood trans..then quite simply..you dont have to have it!

And as an adult you have the right to make this decision. Lots of people (as with that teenager who made the decision) have died because of it, and that was thier choice.

A baby has no means to express or understand such choices.

I do believe the Parents have the right to choose what they think is best for their own kids.....

To some extent, yes, but there's others where I disagree. There's a recent news story of foster parents being jailed because they chose to control their foster kids by putting them in cages.

It's an issue that can go around and around, here (and does, often with great nastiness.)

I don't see parents as all-wise beings, nor doctors as omniscient healers (no matter how much they might occasionally try to pass themselves off as such.) However, when several doctors indicate the same medical treatment and indicate that a baby may die without it, I tend to go with that recommendation.

Originally posted by dgtempe
Byrd says:

"Now... review your mental checklist of what a baby who's been physically beaten by his parents might look like. Yep... blood in the diaper, brusing. CPS may have been sent out because someone thought the parents were beating the child.


Sorry, there is absolutely no mention as to this in any of the articles. This is pure speculation on your part.

Lets deal with the facts.

It is, indeed. But there was speculation about why CPS got involved. The original news source was from a blog and was fairly biased. Sooo... I was speculating why the CPS might have been called in.

The subsequent blog-news items kind of confuse it even more. We have a nephrologist apparently threatening the mother... with no answer about "who brought the child in" (they don't run out and make housecalls just on a whim). Was the mom taking the baby in for dialysis on a regular schedule? Had the baby taken a turn for the worse? Why wasn't she doing holistic treatments before -- or was she and the outcome is still poor?

What really is gong on?

All we have is a bare bones set of news stories from regular news channels, and a very emotional roar from a group of activists with a poor track record of infant care that gives the story a very biased spin.

Originally posted by Byrd


To some extent, yes, but there's others where I disagree. There's a recent news story of foster parents being jailed because they chose to control their foster kids by putting them in cages.

It's an issue that can go around and around, here (and does, often with great nastiness.)

I don't see parents as all-wise beings, nor doctors as omniscient healers (no matter how much they might occasionally try to pass themselves off as such.) However, when several doctors indicate the same medical treatment and indicate that a baby may die without it, I tend to go with that recommendation.

i think it really all depends

if the parents are just sick minded people like that, by all means throw them in a cage too, they deserve it

but if they are just stupid idiots who are too foolish to listen to multiple trained phyisicians recommendations, im a big fan of let the stupidity die out
their familys will die off eventually, and afterwards we will only have reasonable people left
*i would hope*
i just think if they want their bloodline to cease, allow it

if we have to intervene in every situation like this, we will be endlessly trying to save the lives of people, and their intelligence will drop significantly because they dont NEED to be smart when WE think for them constantly
their survival will no longer depend on their own abilitys, and they will become dependant leeches who dont know anything , because we exercise all of that knowledge for them

and frankly, im too tired to deal with it
i dont care if the lion eats the antelope, ive got better things to worry about

what happened to the snakes legs when it didnt use them anymore?
they became pretty much nonexistant *for the most part*
well if these people cant learn from their own mistakes, their brains will eventually become non existant also
see where im going ?

Who would know more about this? Someone who lives in the U.S. where placebos still are prescribed on occasion. hmmmmmmmmmm?

I'm actually here in DC. I've been here since May and will be here until August with my uncle who practices medicine in Virginia. He said he hasn't prescribed a placebo for years, and hasn't had any patients whose records show ever being prescribed one.

Also, as a side note, the fireworks on the Capitol lawn tonight were AWESOME!

Mariella

Sometimes the docs are needed. Alternatives should be sought after in all cases except where it is better for the individual if they have some type of surgery or something of this nature, or his survival depends on it. You never should put someone on a potentially dangerous and powerful medicine unless there isn't a choice. And you don't start carving on someone unless it is necessary.

Another thing to bring up, this story that started this whole conversation doesn't sound that dissimilar to what is happening with kids in school these days. You can be viewed as neglectful if you refuse to put your child on Ritalin or the like. I'm sorry but drugs like this don't belong in the market place, period. I have enough stories in my family to back it up.

And any medical professional who puts profit over his patients health should be forced to have Tiger Woods t-off with their testicals. I'm only saying this for the "effect" it might create.

Troy

Originally posted by cybertroy
Alternatives should be sought after in all cases except where it is better for the individual if they have some type of surgery or something of this nature, or his survival depends on it.

Shouldn't such alternatives have been at least as rigorously tested as the 'conventional' treatments they are supposed to be alternatives to? Otherwise, you'd just be using yourself (or worse still, your baby) as a guinea-pig for alternative 'medicine'.

Another thing to bring up, this story that started this whole conversation doesn't sound that dissimilar to what is happening with kids in school these days. You can be viewed as neglectful if you refuse to put your child on Ritalin or the like.

No, there is absolutely no comparison. The inappropriate use of pharmaceuticals to make a child conform to specified standards of behaviour is an abuse of medicine. It is a million miles away from trying to save a child's life through dialysis.

Originally posted by Astyanax
Shouldn't such alternatives have been at least as rigorously tested as the 'conventional' treatments they are supposed to be alternatives to? Otherwise, you'd just be using yourself (or worse still, your baby) as a guinea-pig for alternative 'medicine'.
..

They aren't tested by anyone, so they remain forever locked out of the marketplace.... the FDA does whatever some puppet master (big pharma you might say, bt big pharma eventually belongs to a few people, too) tells them to do.


There's a good example, regarding a completely different subject, which can be found here, which clearly shows self-censorship and a general lack of interest in blatantly obvious anomalies, which are not being (openly) investigated, for reasons you and i can only guess. People in general are still way too naive, if you know what you're doing, do it out of sight. people will of course scew up, but cockups alos happen in the professional field. this case is pretty clearly favoring the orwellian fraction (coercion for your own good), as any effective treatment would not have enough time to work, so an intermediate solution would be needed anyway, ie. dialysis. cases where organisations are clearly in the wrong, such as the one mentioned earlier, where parents (successfully) rescued their child from chemotherapy are not published all that often, methinks.


i personally don't know of any effective 'alternative' kidney restoration program, but that doesn't mean squat, i would LOVE to see descriptions of these hideous alternative treatments so i can judge for myself. Imho, cases such as this one are desgined to create emotional distress among readers so they cave in to coercion more easily. the fallacies here are that the numbers of reported and actual cases have any correlation to each other and that mistakes made by laymen are worse than professional mistakes. if someone dies by misdiagnosis, accident (wrong solution in IV drip), side effects or simply due to prehistoric treatment (=ignorance) there is no outcry, no fuss, nothing. otoh, if a quack alledgedly kills someone, it's all over the news.

Let's make it simple. The best solution is the solution that does the most good with the least amount of harm.

Troy