Why there is a Hell

Originally posted by curiousity


It is the closed minded that say Allah is the same as the Christian God. Check out the character of the god of the Muslims, and the results of their worship of it, and then compare it with the God of the Bible.

Wanting to make all religions the same is a hallmark of the New Age, but it basically boils down to a buffet of religion: pick and choose what you like from the samples, and if you don't like what you picked, leave it on the plate and go back for another selection. Like any greedy buffet artist, load up your plate with all you could possibly eat, and leave most of it, since it will not suit your tastes once you get to it.

That is completly wrong. It is in no way a "closed minded view" It is relgious history. ALl three relgions have their start with Abraham and his God. We christians say it all the time "the God of Abraham" the Jews say it all the time and its all over the Quran.

It is said in muslim tradition that Abraham and his exiled son had with the bonds woman haggar go off into the desert and build the Kabba the most holy place in Islam in the city of Mecca while it was just a town.

Abraham is regarded as the founding patriarch of the Israelites whom God chose to bless out of all the families of the earth. He is a critical figure in both Judaism and Christianity, and is a very important prophet in Islam. Accounts of his life are given in the Book of Genesis and also in the Qur'an.

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are sometimes referred to as the "Abrahamic religions", because of the role Abraham plays in their holy books and beliefs. In the Hebrew Bible and the Qur'an, Abraham is described as a patriarch blessed by God (the Jewish people called him "Father Abraham"), and promised great things. Jews and Christians consider him father of the people of Israel through his son Isaac; Muslims regard him as the father of the Arabs through his son Ishmael. In Christian belief, Abraham is a model of faith, and his intention to obey God by offering up Isaac is seen as a foreshadowing of God's offering of his son, Jesus. In Islam, Abraham obeyed God by offering up Ishmael and is considered to be one of the most important prophets sent by God.

en.wikipedia.org...

And here you may also want to go and read "The Cow" in the Quran as it blatantly says :

I quote from the second chapter of the Quran

30. Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."

31. And He taught Adam the names of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the names of these if ye are right."

32. They said: "Glory to Thee, of knowledge We have none, save what Thou Hast taught us: In truth it is Thou Who art perfect in knowledge and wisdom."

33. He said: "O Adam! Tell them their natures." When he had told them, Allah said: "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"

34. And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: he was of those who reject Faith.

35. And We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."

36. Then did Satan make them slip from the (Garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. And We said: "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling place and your means of livelihood - for a time."

37. Then learnt Adam from his Lord certain words, and (Allah) accepted his repentance; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.

that sounds oddly familiar....

49. And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh: They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons and let your women-folk live; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.

50. And remember We divided the sea for you and saved you and drowned Pharaoh's people within your very sight.

51. And remember We appointed forty nights for Moses, and in his absence ye took the calf (for worship), and ye did grievous wrong.

52. Even then We did forgive you; there was a chance for you to be grateful.

53. And remember We gave Moses the Scripture and the Criterion (Between right and wrong): There was a chance for you to be guided aright.

54. And remember Moses said to his people: "O my people! Ye have indeed wronged yourselves by your worship of the calf: So turn (in repentance) to your Maker, and slay yourselves (the wrong-doers); that will be better for you in the sight of your Maker." Then He turned towards you (in forgiveness): For He is Oft- Returning, Most Merciful.

55. And remember ye said: "O Moses! We shall never believe in thee until we see Allah manifestly," Thereupon ye were dazed with thunderbolt even as ye looked on.

56. Then We raised you up after your death; ye had the chance to be grateful.

57. And We gave you the shade of clouds and sent down to you Manna and quails, saying: "Eat of the good things We have provided for you:" (But they rebelled); to Us they did no harm, but they harmed their own souls.

WHAT!?!? MOSES IN THE QURAN! AH!

this is possibly the most important

136. Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we submit to Allah (in Isl�m)."

137. So if they believe as ye believe, they are indeed on the right path; but if they turn back, it is they who are in schism; but Allah will suffice thee as against them, and He is the All- Hearing, the All-Knowing.

138. (Our religion) takes its hue from Allah. And who can give a better hue than Allah. And it is He Whom we worship.

139. Say: Will ye dispute with us about Allah, seeing that He is our Lord and your Lord; that we are responsible for our doings and ye for yours; and that we are sincere (in our faith) in Him?

And that verry clearly from the quran itself says "YOU WILL NOT FIGHT JEWS OR CHRISTAINS AS THEY BELIEVE THE SAME TRUE GOD AS US AND WE ARE ALL SAVED" in so many words or another.

Judasim , Christianity, and Islam = the same one God. The God of Abraham.

Thank you for that compilation, Mizar. I have talked to many Arab friends who have shown me this and follow its teachings. With all this fuss in the Middle East people tend to forget that the majority of Arabs are peace loving devotely religious people.

If there is a hell, there is a heaven. Is there a gay heaven? Is there a animal heaven since there are maybe some good creatures on earth or do they not matter?

If this reality is just a test or a stepping stone to go to heaven, then it does not matter what we do to this planet, we can pollute it, pillage it and turn it into a waste land, as long as we believe in god and threat our fellow humans well. What about plants and animals, are they here only to help us survive? Do we not have a obligation to the planet and its inhabitians?

Is that why people threat this reality that way? This whole universe is an illusion? If religion is the answer then whos religion is the right one? In the end, we will fight each other over religion.

Here is the most ironic part, hell maybe considered heaven to the extremely wicked who love to see suffering, even their own, going to hell will be heaven to them, going to heaven will be hell. What about the insane people who have suffered brain damage, do they go to heaven or hell? Do they have a choice?

What about the people who were brain wash by their community into believing their own brand of religion, they did not have a choice, they were brain washed into believing that their religion is the only path since young. How will any of us know which religion is the right path for sure? Religions have been the cause of many conficts in the past, and will proababily be so in the future.

Originally posted by ixiy
If this reality is just a test or a stepping stone to go to heaven, then it does not matter what we do to this planet, we can pollute it, pillage it and turn it into a waste land, as long as we believe in god and threat our fellow humans well. [/qoute]

Arrggg How can you believe in God and treat your fellow humans well by polluting and pillaging and turning it into a wasteland?

Thanks ZOrgon. Even though I am a hard core catholic I did take the time to read part of the quran and when I did I was amazed at how peaceful and how similar it is. I currently am listening to a audio course dealing with that verry issue "one God and three faiths"

BAck on subject.


I aggree Zorgon how can destruction of earth be "good" and not hurt other people?

IMHO, Hell and heaven are mearly a mental state.
Much like dreams, and nightmares.

IF your a good person, you do good deeds, you have happy days..
your go home, and when your falling asleep your thinking happy thoughts. Your thinking about good things, because ultimately you have no guilt and no worries, thus you dream.

If your a mean person, you hurt people, your rob, you steal, cheat rah rah rah you have guilt, the human mind think about this. So when your falling asleep your not thinking about that perso you helped pick up there shopping when they tripped, or gave a homeless person a buck... your thinking about how you laughed at that perosn, and how you abused the bum asking for a dollar.
Thus you have nightmares.

I believe heaven and hell are the same thing.
if you live a happy life, you help people, when you die, and your life flashes before your eyes, your happy, your in peace and ultimately when you go into your eternal sleep you DREAM.

If you lived a mean life, hurt people rah rah rah, when your life flashes before your eyes all you see are the people you hurt, the pain you caused and the mean side.. thus your eternal sleep is a guilt filled painful expereince.

Im not religous in any sense. I beleive religion is what is wrong with this planet.
Why cant we all just be HUMANS? and co-exist?

But the term heaven and hell are widely used to describe the afterlife so for the use in this explanation i shall use them for they are well known terms.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
IMHO, Hell and heaven are mearly a mental state.
Much like dreams, and nightmares.

IF your a good person, you do good deeds, you have happy days..
your go home, and when your falling asleep your thinking happy thoughts. Your thinking about good things, because ultimately you have no guilt and no worries, thus you dream.

If your a mean person, you hurt people, your rob, you steal, cheat rah rah rah you have guilt, the human mind think about this. So when your falling asleep your not thinking about that perso you helped pick up there shopping when they tripped, or gave a homeless person a buck... your thinking about how you laughed at that perosn, and how you abused the bum asking for a dollar.
Thus you have nightmares.

I believe heaven and hell are the same thing.
if you live a happy life, you help people, when you die, and your life flashes before your eyes, your happy, your in peace and ultimately when you go into your eternal sleep you DREAM.

If you lived a mean life, hurt people rah rah rah, when your life flashes before your eyes all you see are the people you hurt, the pain you caused and the mean side.. thus your eternal sleep is a guilt filled painful expereince.

Im not religous in any sense. I beleive religion is what is wrong with this planet.
Why cant we all just be HUMANS? and co-exist?

But the term heaven and hell are widely used to describe the afterlife so for the use in this explanation i shall use them for they are well known terms.

I could not explain it better than that!! AMEN.

Im amazed sometimes really....how people still think hell is a place all the bad boys and girls go when they die !!! geeeez.. now I know why sleeping is the cousing of death. Anesthesiologists can't explain the dormant mind. It's like we have a circuit switch in our brain. Flipping through reality, and non reality. I wouldnt mind dreaming for a long time while I re incarnate.

[edit on 7/6/2006 by StreetCorner Philosopher]

Originally posted by StreetCorner Philosopher
Im amazed sometimes really....how people still think hell is a place all the bad boys and girls go when they die !!! geeeez..

You know what amazes me? That people don't read the actual topic in the thread.

I stated in a post above that Hell is needed to teach lessons. People will not repent their sins if it was not for hell.

It's the only way to heaven. You must pass through hell.

originally posted by Mizar..... It is relgious history. ALl three relgions have their start with Abraham and his God. We christians say it all the time "the God of Abraham" the Jews say it all the time and its all over the Quran.

um, Mizar, this is what I posted in my humble little post, emphasis added so the point can be better "gotten":

originally posted by curiousityIt is the closed minded that say Allah is the same as the Christian God. Check out the character of the god of the Muslims, and the results of their worship of it, and then compare it with the God of the Bible.

The Quran could say anything, it is not the Bible, therefore it is not the sacred God-inspired Scriptures but a copy-cat version from Ishmaelites who mocked Issac and even today hate their brother Jews. It is the result of the worship of "Allah" to which I'm pointing.

And regardless of what the Quran says or doesn't say, are you denying that the fanatic muslim whose text is the Quran desires to kill the "infidel" Christians and that they are at war with the Jews?

God sent Ishmael away for a God-given reason. Enough said.

Hell is mental pain. I compare it to physical pain in why we need it. To survive and become better of course. To gain intelligence. To learn from our trials and tribulations.

Physical pain tells the brain something is dangerous. How did the first man realize that jumping off a 30 foot cliff is not the same as jumping off a 100 foot cliff ? Pain ! Collectively, we have built a series of rules to ensure our survival with the help of pain.

Hell is mental pain, and in order to become better, we must face consequences for bad deeds and actions. I hate facing the wrath of god. It's the only thing I fear.

[edit on 7/7/2006 by StreetCorner Philosopher]

I actually read (Robert Graves:The White Goddess) that the existence of hell may be due to a much more mundane reason. When the people of Abraham, who came from Ur in Persia, first colonised the territories known today as Israel and Palestine they did not find them empty.
They were inhabited by a people who worshipped Helel,(Morning Star like Venus later to become Lucifer and Satan) to whom they had to impose the new Yahwe religion, so they banished Helel,buried her underground and that is why to this day God has no Jurisdiction in Hell.( Which is a bit wierd for a God not to be completely Omnipotent)
What is your reaction to that possibility?
Osbert+

Ok, i dont think that hell is fire and brimstone either, but.... i dont think that just because a person is selfish or denies god, goes and suffers for all eternity. what if they werent taught of jesus and god? also i just wanted to put this theory out there as well/ if god knows everything that will happen and knows how everything that is going end, then why would he condemn people to hell, when he knows that they are going there in the first place. why not just send them there from the start? like saying that people who commit suicide or children who do not get baptized get stuck in limbo , or are condemned forever.

first of all , children are innocent until they understand that they can be saved by our saviour. god loves us more than we love our own children, ( which is unfathomable to me) , and if you love something so much how can you deny them. i Believe in god 100% but i dont think god can be that cruel to the ones that he loves. i know that even if my child did something horrific i would still love them. the only people that should go to hell , is the ones like child molesters, murderers ( who enjoy the act of killing) and rapists , child killers ... ect. so normal people that just dont beleive in god, will be taught when the world gets cleansed and we start over.
at least that is what i believe

im out
-mindtrip02

Mizar, excellent post.
Question for you. Did I miss this in reviewing all the previous posts, but I dont know if the main question was ever answered. Why is there a hell.
You and I are both Catholics. So we learned God created hell to banish the devil and all who serve him. Ok, now, lets look at this from the outside. Why is there a hell. If god loves us, is merciful, forgives, etc etc., why have this place? My apologies if this was actually answered or maybe I did not understand the answer enough.

Originally posted by curiousity
The Quran could say anything, it is not the Bible, therefore it is not the sacred God-inspired Scriptures but a copy-cat version from Ishmaelites who mocked Issac and even today hate their brother Jews. It is the result of the worship of "Allah" to which I'm pointing.

I find it absolutely amazing that people like you can't seem to realize the irony, hypocrisy and arrogance behind your statements. The fact that you blindly trust that the bible is the ONLY divinely-inspired holy text on the planet automatically excludes you from effectively participating in any sort of intelligent discussion on religious matters. Holier-than-thou attitudes from people who mistakingly think they know the truth because some compilation of lectures and fairy-tales mixed with loosely-translated and often inaccurate ancient history is enough to scare them into believing it and in my opinion, these people are some of the most ignorant and dangerous people in the world. If we as a civilization ever self-destruct, it will undoubtedly be by the hands of religious nuts who selfishly infringe on other people's beliefs and ways of life because they are too insecure with their own. Meanwhile, the rest of us are stuck here to suffer along side those who refuse to take their heads out of their rears and use their 'God-given' talents to logically figure out the answers to their questions for themselves.

[edit on 13-7-2006 by firebat]

[edit on 13-7-2006 by firebat]

heaven and hell were created by men to control, through hope and fear, other men.

its no different than a parent using ice cream and spankings to control a child

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
heaven and hell were created by men to control, through hope and fear, other men.

its no different than a parent using ice cream and spankings to control a child

Yes, but its only the ones who allow themselves to be controlled. The fabrication of the labels heaven and hell scare only the readers who do not see past of the literal explanation of the two.

Originally posted by StreetCorner Philosopher

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
heaven and hell were created by men to control, through hope and fear, other men.

its no different than a parent using ice cream and spankings to control a child

Yes, but its only the ones who allow themselves to be controlled. The fabrication of the labels heaven and hell scare only the readers who do not see past of the literal explanation of the two.

I agree. I wasn't raised with any religion whatsoever other than the ocasional and rare Sunday school-session while I was visiting my grandparents. I don't think I even had a single conversation between my parents and I about what we thought God and everything related really was. They let me figure it for myself. I still haven't figured it all out yet... I probably never will. But as long as my heart beats and my brain works, I'm going to do my best to try and find the answers to the bigger questions and although, as I said, I may not find all my answers, I take comfort in the fact that whatever I DO decide to believe in won't be influenced by what I saw some of my friends grow up exposed to, eventually to become, at the least a participant and at most a slave for something as atrocious and anti-humanity as organized religion.

More to the point, I feel no fear in the empty and meaningless threats that some people like to throw around. Hell is only in the minds of those that believe in it and it is the real reason why many christians live their lives according to the bible; out of fear. I'm thankful that I did not grow up in a household that worshipped a largely fictitious book, so that I would not become someone pre-conditioned to accept a set of rules in order to spare the wrath of a god that is just too damn scary for people to risk not believing in, apparently. So the threat of Hell really has not significance for me. There are plenty of people, worldwide, that live and die without ever hearing about the Bible. Will those people be going to hell? There's no way. I listened to Coast-to-Coast the other night and the guest was an expert on Catholicism (who argued modern Catholicism is heretical by nature, along with the current Pope, and it is fulfilling the 3rd secret of Fatima). His explanation for why people like the natives in remote areas of the world still go to hell, even though they had no opportunity to even supposedly save themselves by reading the bible which they have no exposure to, was that 'if a person is good and his heart is good, God will put that person in a situation where he will inevitably have the opportunity to accept the bible and Christianity. It was total and utter nonsense and that is pretty much what the bible is all about-- nonsense. It's text is so circular, redundant and at the same time paradoxical that it's clear it was used as a tool of control (as it is today). So I think the threat of going to hell, along with everything else in the book, is used to scare people into following a certain set of guidelines, making it easy to control entire masses of people-- they all think the same. SHEEP. You scare them with the concept of hell... ULTIMATE and ETERNAL suffering.... and they are so frightened that they feel they just can't take the chance of not believing in the christian god. It is a trick and it takes advantage of our minds that are quite often operating from a self-protection and fear-based state of thinking. Now. Looping back up to my earlier paragraphs, I haven't been mentally and socially conditioned to fear what that book says. It is not imprinted on my inner-self that was molded as I developed through childhood and into adulthood. It is not part of my thinking. Therefore, the book has no advantage over me because, when dealing with spirituality and beliefs, I am not operating from a fear-based perspective. I can slow down and use my brain to analyze what information is being thrown at me (or that I have intentionally gathered).

[edit on 16-7-2006 by firebat]

I think the bible was intened to enlighten certain people. People who took these great myths and deciphered them to coexist with modern theology and psychology. The bible has lots of wisdom in it. I cannot agree that it's solely a tool for control. Only the fools are affected in that manner. The ones who are full of fear and cannot distinguish metaphor from fact.