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Why there is a Hell

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posted on Jul, 2 2006 @ 04:35 PM
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Im so tired of hearing this argument on ATS and from people in general that I am bring back myself to the ranks of ATS Catholic fighter and "defender of the heavens" (as my two great areas of knowldge are astronomy and catholisim)


I have studied Theology for many years (and I do not mean that sunday school catholic school education stuff that is a joke of relgious education) and am even working on my degree in theology ( I need it for the seminary ). So now I am going to give you the answer to "Why there is a hell and if God is so loving why would GOd send people there?" ( all in accordance with the catholic church of course
)

TO start lets talk about what hell is and how you actually get there in the first place as it is highly important to actually know this. Hell is a state of being. As your physical body needs food to live your sould needs God to stay in a "healthy" state. However your soul cannot die and thusly without the one thing that can keep it "healthy" you will suffer. Hell is not a fire and brimstone place. It is a complete denial of God and absece of God. People go to hell because they are so full of selfishness and pride that they refuse to except God even in death. Even after they have seen God and know fully that it is futile to stand against God. That to deny God will put themselves in an eternity of misery but still yet they deny God because they refuse to be under the "power" of something else. In death and all things are made known and you can make the most fully informed decision of your life. You stand before God knowing everything. You know God's goodness and true "face" and you know wat your denial of God means. It is fully your decision.

YOu have to figure then that for someone to be so full of pride and selfishness that they deny God with that knowldge then they will refuse to be for anyone but themselves. Now you think that everyone who is in hell is like that. SO you can paint a picture of everyone living for themselves without a care for someone else. A constant fight for power. A fight againts everyone and everyone against you and at this same time you are in infinate suffering because your soul is seperated from the one thing that can keep it "healthy".


Now that we have a brief picture of hell and what it is you ask "Why would God allow for people to go there how nice and loving is that?". Now I answer that question.

What would be more so crule? For someone who is that selfish and that slef loving to be put in hell or for that person to never exist? or to cease to exist?

Obviously the first and that is why there is a hell. A complete death of ones self is the ultimate punnishment for someone who is fully selfish. A place where they can live out their selfishness is a place of mercy.

I hope that helps some.

-mizar




posted on Jul, 2 2006 @ 04:46 PM
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When your dead, your dead! There is no after life, no hell, no heaven... That's my opinion, then again I am an atheist! All the best to you!



posted on Jul, 2 2006 @ 04:59 PM
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Nice job,

I wanted to add, there is no exclusion between science and religion. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Basic science.

Good/Bad
Heaven/Hell
Matter/Anti-matter

Who is to say that God did not create the Big Bang? Thank you for the reconnection.



posted on Jul, 2 2006 @ 05:10 PM
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I don't think there is a hell as potrayed in the Bible. To me personally I would rather be non existent than be in a place where I could not have the choice to improve.

When you say selfish people that deny God it doesn't make much sense to me. I am an awesome person and do believe in a higher power and inside my heart I am good. I am confused as to what you mean exactly by denying God. Do you mean being a horrible person or a person that doesn't go to church and take Christ as their saviour type of thing. You know what I mean, the whole scenario of a good person will go to hell even if they don't accept Christ.

I personally think the whole heaven and hell thing is a bunch of hooey. This is my opinion and I respect yours. I do believe in Karma. I also think the Bible is 10% truth and 90% lies that were manipulated by people in power when it was created to control us by guilt and fear. It works wonderfully but people are starting to wake up because the age of Pices is over.

I wish you the best in the seminary.



posted on Jul, 2 2006 @ 05:20 PM
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what I mean is that you know God is all good and all loving and all that fun stuff but still yet you refuse to accept God even after you know all this and more to be true.



posted on Jul, 2 2006 @ 05:33 PM
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Originally posted by crmanager
Nice job,

I wanted to add, there is no exclusion between science and religion. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Basic science.

Good/Bad
Heaven/Hell
Matter/Anti-matter

Who is to say that God did not create the Big Bang? Thank you for the reconnection.

Good and bad are just concepts. Something maybe good in one place and bad in another, something maybe good for someone and bad for another. As you can see, good/bad are human creations, as is heaven/hell.



posted on Jul, 3 2006 @ 12:51 AM
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Originally posted by Mizar
what I mean is that you know God is all good and all loving and all that fun stuff but still yet you refuse to accept God even after you know all this and more to be true.


I am still not getting what you mean exactly. If you know God is good and all loving and all that fun stuff, where does the refusing to accecpt God come in? If you think God is good and all loving why would you refuse him? I think I know what you mean but I dont' want to type all that much to explain. Anyway I guess will all find out sooner or later.



posted on Jul, 3 2006 @ 01:00 AM
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Originally posted by Raven18

Originally posted by Mizar
what I mean is that you know God is all good and all loving and all that fun stuff but still yet you refuse to accept God even after you know all this and more to be true.


I am still not getting what you mean exactly. If you know God is good and all loving and all that fun stuff, where does the refusing to accecpt God come in? If you think God is good and all loving why would you refuse him? I think I know what you mean but I dont' want to type all that much to explain. Anyway I guess will all find out sooner or later.


We kind of covered this before in church and it comes from pridefulness and arrogance. thats why they always say a blessed man is one who is humble.
believe it or not there are people who are so prideful and Id say even hateful that they will deny God always.



posted on Jul, 3 2006 @ 01:59 AM
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Originally posted by XphilesPhan
...believe it or not there are people who are so prideful and Id say even hateful that they will deny God always.


Just as there are non-prideful people who "will deny God always".


As to the topic...it's kinda funky...I mean...

You're not arguing whether there is or isn't a hell, nor are you arguing who or what goes to hell (very grey area). Instead you chose to ask why there is a hell. That seems adventurous.

You know why I think there is a hell (I don't, but let's pretend I do
)? So that people who actually believe in it and hope for other people to burn...will really just be the only ones who end up there themselves.

And there ya have it. You created hell, for yourself. After, all, Jesus talked about The Kingdom of God and Hell...ON EARTH. You either make it easy for your self, or hard for your self. The psycholigical trumoil you go through THINKNING about a hell...is hell itself...Enjoy it while you can.


edit: spelling



[edit on 7/3/2006 by Arcane Demesne]



posted on Jul, 3 2006 @ 02:02 AM
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I have one question... which God? Now I assume being Catholic you would mean the Christian God, but assumptions are not the best way to gather data.

My question over the years has always been why is the God of any other race or group any less valid? Allah, Buddha, whatever you call Him

I know it has been said that it is merely different forms of the same God, yet if that were true why all the fighting over who is right? And why would not all the religious leaders just get together and say this?

Am I supposed to believe that all those who are comfortable in the truth of their own God will be damned if they don't accept the Christian God? The Catholics have a long History of forcing people to accept their God. Will all those tormented souls now suffer for eternity for sins the Church commited?

Your words about hell were very interesting, I would like to hear your views on this



posted on Jul, 3 2006 @ 03:01 AM
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by Raven 18
I also think the Bible is 10% truth and 90% lies that were manipulated by people in power when it was created to control us by guilt and fear. It works wonderfully but people are starting to wake up because the age of Pices is over.
Because the 'controllers' have decided to give us a new Religion to replace 'their' old ones...Some think that the New Age Religion is it !...could be 10% in some areas and more or less in others....

Lolove n luck !...ave maria!



posted on Jul, 3 2006 @ 10:10 AM
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Originally posted by Arcane Demesne


You're not arguing whether there is or isn't a hell, nor are you arguing who or what goes to hell (very grey area). Instead you chose to ask why there is a hell. That seems adventurous.


[edit on 7/3/2006 by Arcane Demesne]


If I was posing a question I would have used a question mark. Im not asking "Why there is a hell?" I am stating that this it the catholic stance on hell.


Zorgon.

From my understanding of the theology I have learned in death all things are made known to you. Here on earth it is impossible to choose God or deny God fully as you do not know God fully. HOwever it is in death that you know the true face of God (Which I hold to be the God of Abraham (which is the Islamic, christian and Jewish God)) After fully knowing God in death if you choose out of your own pride to deny him stell yet because you refuse to accept een though you know all these things then you ase sent to hell by your own free will. In death you do not loose your ability of free will.

Raven 18 : you do get it. You see that someone would have to be incredibly foolish to deny God after GOd is revealed to them fully. It even seems impossible. But it is possible for someone to be so inlove of themselves that they refuse to "love God" for eternity and would rather suffer.



posted on Jul, 3 2006 @ 10:58 AM
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I wish people would read the book of the century, The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. Here you would understand the fine distinctions possible in language, then sift the "wheat from the chaff," regarding the human experience.

Ask questions. In the catholic church experience there is a hierarchy. That assumes a scale of things, an ego game where people have goals to have a position to "better themselves." We know from reading the life of Jesus that the Apostles were separating each other by seeking the place next to him at the last supper, in other words "who would be first in the Kingdom." Already they have failed to recognize "the Kingdom of Heaven is within you." Instead they seek an outward substitution for the inner spiritual world. They look at Jesus to have their own "temporal power," and may even think to themselves that all that "spiritual power," is merely a means to achieve it. In other words in their seeking of a hierarchy of temporal power they have already missed the point. Spiritual power is massively more powerful than temporal power.

So history goes forward. You have Medici Popes buying their office, and charging indulgences in the myth that people have to save their dead ancestors from purgutory, a sort of "hell light," which is so miserable that a moment in it is worse than a thousand years suffering on earth. That is what the catechism says. Now I cannot think of a more despicable thing where the goal is seeking temporal power over a faithful people just seeking the good spiritual life.

All of this self seeking temporal power contrasts entirely with the approach in words of what we trace in Jesus' words.

In temporal terms a belief there "might be a hell," surrounds all the goodies Christianity offers. Now you say the problem is a "distance from God," and that rejecting "God," is hell itself since your soul needs God. But already your concept of God is so intertwined with temporal power and all its distractions that the spiritual life is next to dead, except by temporal declaration, "binding on earth as it will be bound in heaven.

If you really want to get closer to god, and the Kingdom of Heaven within you, get as far away from temporal churches and money changers as possible. Get close to nature as did Jesus. You do not have to do anything like fast for 40 days, but you need to commune for a time with "your father in heaven." It may be an effort since your words about God are so intertwined with temporal churches, sacraments, and other "outward signs."

Oh is there a "hell," maybe, but it is vested in temporal power, where people think they stand in terms of temporal power, and what hell on earth they use to trample on others. Notice the sickness of countries that are nominally "catholic," when the impetus of it is anything but spiritual. "You shall know by their fruits." Hey I can be comfortable anywhere with my God, as long as I do not open my mouth and invite corrupt temporal power words from others. I am totally at ease in any church, but not with picky doctrines used by secret societies to "divide and conquer."

When you are doing spiritual things, the consequence is heaven on earth.



posted on Jul, 3 2006 @ 11:07 AM
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Originally posted by zorgon
My question over the years has always been why is the God of any other race or group any less valid? Allah, Buddha, whatever you call Him


By The Way, Buddha was NOT a God, and Allah IS the same God as Yahweh, it actually just means "God" in Arabic.



posted on Jul, 3 2006 @ 11:16 AM
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So where do these statements come from, and from which parts in the bible did you derive these ideas from.
I love it how religions can develop such lenghty explanations about these topics, which so differ from what the bible actually says. Perhaps it does say something like this in some texts, or can be interpreted in this way. But i'm sure there would be other countless interpretations for that same section, and then countless contradictions of that same topic in other sections.



posted on Jul, 3 2006 @ 11:39 AM
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Originally posted by T0by
So where do these statements come from, and from which parts in the bible did you derive these ideas from.
I love it how religions can develop such lenghty explanations about these topics, which so differ from what the bible actually says. Perhaps it does say something like this in some texts, or can be interpreted in this way. But i'm sure there would be other countless interpretations for that same section, and then countless contradictions of that same topic in other sections.



Go read Summa Theologica by Thomas Aquanias.

Just because I didnt say anything regarding bible reference dosent mean its not there. Go find any theology text book, catholic theology, and read the section on Hell. You will see.

again I state. This is not my presonal belief this is what I belive as it is the teaching of the church that I have analyzed and feel to be structurally sound as some of the greatest minds in the past 2000 years have thought and devoted their lives to understanding this and have done so verry eloquently.



posted on Jul, 3 2006 @ 12:11 PM
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Mizar,

You post an interesting, if not original, re-explanation for the “Hell” concept. You must at least have read enough religious missives to know that the Jewish, Christian, Moslem concept of “Hell” derives from the Greek classics. I’m not sure just where the Greeks got the idea but it permeates their literature and is generally copied almost intact by the Johnny-come-lately religions mentioned above.

I do find it interesting that while you are abviously religious you take no hasitation in pshawing the explanation of Hell in the "inerrant word of God" that is the Bible.

Since by now modern people, even the poorly educated among us, realize that some place beneath the earth’s surface as described in the Bible is simply too illogical to attempt to defend and still lay claim to a modicum of sanity.
Now comes your adopted re-explanation of the illogical description in the biblical text with the even more unsupportable poppy-cock regarding denial of some stated belief. Good luck with that.

In response to your post “zorgon” asked why the gods of Islam, Judaism and Buddhism would not be considered equal to the Christian god.

The answer is, of course, that all gods are equally valid; one no more or less powerful than the next as each god is empowered with all that endowed by its creator , man.

Do I consider your simplistic explanation of “Hell” to be uninformed and naïve? Yes, Completely.

Should your poppy-cock be taught in Catholic school? Why not? Maybe it’s better to teach such outlandish drivel rather than try to deal with the abysmal actual history of the “Universal Church” and its constant abuse of unsuspecting, uninformed humans over its history.

Who was it that said: “We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart. “
H. L. Mencken

Oh yes! That’s it. It was HL himself. Of course in this quote HL is abusing the word ‘theory’ and mistaking it to be synonymous with opinion and this mistake, while common even today, is inaccurate but his point is well taken. It applies to you, Billy Graham, Dodson (whatever the hell his first name is), Moses, if he actually existed and even myself.

We all have our opinions and none of them qualify as theory; they’re just opinions, after all.

Good luck in school.



posted on Jul, 3 2006 @ 12:16 PM
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Actually the greek fiew of hell was incorperated into the catholic church in the early years of the church during the times of St. Paul. As at this time the greek culture was spreading and causing quite and uproar in the church as helinisim spread this was about 100AD I think. The church was not happy witht he spread of Helinisim and thats where you get the Grecko-roman culture.


And yet again. I am a student of catholic theology and this is not what I think this is the honest to God catholic stance on hell when you do your research.

This is not some philosophy that I came up with this is stuff that was first talked baout by some of the great minds from St Agustine to John Paul II.



posted on Jul, 3 2006 @ 03:32 PM
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Originally posted by Mizar
From my understanding of the theology I have learned in death all things are made known to you. Here on earth it is impossible to choose God or deny God fully as you do not know God fully. HOwever it is in death that you know the true face of God (Which I hold to be the God of Abraham (which is the Islamic, christian and Jewish God)) After fully knowing God in death if you choose out of your own pride to deny him stell yet because you refuse to accept een though you know all these things then you ase sent to hell by your own free will. In death you do not loose your ability of free will.


Thank you, that is a very good answer sir. I must say however after having discused religion with many Catholics, I have yet to hear this viewpoint. Especially stated so clearly. I personally do not hold to any one God per say, but fully respect a persons right to choose their own path. I do believe in re-incarnation.

Yes I most definately believe that the soul retains free will. I further beleve that it is your own soul that sits in judgement over your past lifes deeds... but I see no conflict here that it is not until death that you will know the true face of God, whatever He may be.

It truly would be a fool , who on that day, with proof right before his eyes, would still question. All our lives we seek the truth. Most of the woes of the world today I see as caused by people who try to force their truth on others. But the ability to recognize truth when it is shown to you, that is wisdom.

I have spent years seeking the path, talked to many religious people in high rank so to speak from many different philosophies. I have found the core values are really not as different as most make it out to be.

Though I do know that the Christian, Muslim and Jewish God are one and the same, I wonder how many Christians out there realize that the Muslims do not deny that? I do not know the Jews point of view on this, but I am sure someone will point it out in here. But knowing this to be true, why all the killing?

Years ago I came to the opinion thats Hell is right here... on Earth. This is where we learn all our lessons. This is where we suffer all our trials and tribulations. When we are ready we ascend to the next level. To me "going to hell" simply meant being reborn into another life on this rock, because I haven't yet made the grade. [and some souls have a LOT to make up for]

Is there really anyone out there that buys into the Dante created version of Hell? Sadly I know this is true. I think past Christian leaders used this vision to "keep the sheep in line" Worked too I will grant that. It just amazes me that so many people don't actually read the books of their own belief system.

As to the "commom" view of Heaven... angels flying around on white fluffy clouds playing a Harp for the rest of eternity... Now THAT vision scares me. No further adventures, things to learn, development of the soul for the rest of eternity?

One thing that reincarnation teaches is that some souls choose to come back to help guide others. I firmly believe that "when the student is ready, a teacher will appear" I know of this first hand. I also believe Jesus was one such teacher. And did he not say that once he was gone they would miscontruue his teachings? [sorry couldn't find the exact reference right now].

Unfortunately so few people listen to the teachers. But having spoken to many such masters, they are all quite happy to have helped that one true student.

I am glad to know there are some Christians out there with views such as yours




posted on Jul, 3 2006 @ 03:41 PM
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Originally posted by WolfofWar
By The Way, Buddha was NOT a God, and Allah IS the same God as Yahweh, it actually just means "God" in Arabic.


Quite true about Buddha,and I do know that. And as I posted in my last reply the Muslims do not dispute that fact. Actually only from close minded Christians have I heard otherwise



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