Checking a bible fact

From a freind of mine in another thread

I asked my coach (episcopalian minister and fluent in Greek and Latin) once about the reality of good and evil. After some rumination, he claimed "true evil" is organized on a cosmic scale

Makes sense to me...

It is only logical, really If evil is the opposite of good, and good is organised on a cosmic scale,IE God... then it can only follow that evil must be as well. I wonder how many religious people here actually can grasp evil on a cosmic scale?

Me I exist on that neutral point, you know along that straight path... the line you draw on a wave pattern that fluctuates between negative and positive? between good and evil? Its called balance, neutrality. Its quiet in here Not a lot of company though

me too. i stay on the fence as well. good and evil are one in the same, no good deed can go unpunished? i believe so many different things.. thats why i came up with kaycieism. its a religion, ya know

If he's a MAN, he can't be a DIETY. The two are mutually exclusive, wouldn't you say?

NO! I guess that you never heard of the Soul/Spirit? Ever hear of a concept called "Buddha Nature" - you should look it up!

Actually, *I ASKED YOU FIRST* to show me were it says that Jesus/Yeshua proclaimed that he literally WAS GOD. You skirted the issue by saying that Jesus/Yeshua said that he was the "Son of God". But wait a minute did God not Create us? Is there not a connection here between God & Man? Would a Jew of that time not believe these things? That we are all "God's Creatures/Children", Part of the Creation, Part of a Universal Mind?

There is no Contradiction here. Jesus/Yeshua was Persecuted for Political reasons - Heresy/Blasphemy was just an excuse.

Originally posted by Seraphim_SerpenteI guess that you never heard of the Soul/Spirit? Ever hear of a concept called "Buddha Nature" - you should look it up!

I haven't heard of it...but I will look it up. (Is there one source better than another for a good description of this concept...?)

Originally posted by Seraphim_SerpenteActually, *I ASKED YOU FIRST* to show me were it says that Jesus/Yeshua proclaimed that he literally WAS GOD.

Jesus referred to himself as "living water" and "I AM." (Gospel of John)
Both of those statements were blatant heresy during that time...claiming the nature of God as his own.

Originally posted by Seraphim_SerpenteYou skirted the issue by saying that Jesus/Yeshua said that he was the "Son of God".

Not skirting the issue. The term "Son of" during that time was much more a claim of a person's "nature" than of their relationship. Calling yourself the Son of God would be akin to saying that your attributes are God's attributes.





[edit on 13-7-2006 by Essedarius]

[edit on 13-7-2006 by Essedarius]

Originally posted by Essedarius
Jesus referred to himself as "living water" and "I AM." (Gospel of John)
Both of those statements were blatant heresy during that time...claiming the nature of God as his own.

Excuse me, but this is not heresy. It is but Prophesy fulfilled.

Of course, there are those who chose to look upon this as blasphemy.

As for the Divinity aspect, I am saddened on a whole, that a complete and utter lack of thought and examples have been express to make this point, oneway or another.

I do not care who it maybe, that has an opinion, but let's see some facts, regardless of the origin, so that those reviewing are able to see, what it is you are using as the basis of your train of thought, or lack thereof.

Jesus, as Divine?

Well first we must address the Prophesies, and here's a fine one, to begin with

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; 2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. 6 And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey; 7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. 8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Of course, this is in respects to John the Baptist, who was to prepare the way for Christ.

The Prophet's though? Whats up with that?

Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. 2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: 3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. 4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years. 5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts. 6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

So we have found one of the References (prophesies) fortelling John and his purpose, and I would like you to reflect to who John, is preparing the way for.

God. The Lord. He is quite clear in this prophesy about who and what John is preparing the way for. Him, as man

As to Jesus and his parentage

Mark 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. 10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

But we can devel into more, just revolving around John, and his ministry.

Moving into Luke, we can find more of this outlined

Luke 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. 14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. 15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. 16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. 17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

And again, what has the Angel told Zacharias? Exactly what the Lord said through Malichi!

Who is he preparing the way for? The Lord.

But that "filled with the Holy Ghost" seems really unlikely eh?

So What is told to Mary?

Luke1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

So here, Gabriel, who is not known as a liar, plainly and clearly denotes exactly who and what Jesus is. The Son of God.

So, we'll pickup on this thought, as time moves on.

The bottom line is, that argueing about the devinity of Christ or what he may have indicated about himself is pointless. There are many more examples of this that clearly denote what Jesus truthfully is.

The Living Word of God amoungst man

Ciao

Shane

Picking up where we left off,

Luke 1:39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda; 40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. 41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. 45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

Now, What did John, the Baptist do in his Mother Womb? Leap for Joy, when filled with the Holy Ghost, as Mary came to them, to tell of the Blessing Gabriel annouced to her.

So what can we find out further about this John, who was to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Well, 8 (eight) days after he was born, he Spoke. Praises to God, of all things.

Luke 1:63 And he asked for a writing table, and wrote, saying, His name is John. And they marvelled all. 64 And his mouth was opened immediately, and his tongue loosed, and he spake, and praised God. 65 And fear came on all that dwelt round about them: and all these sayings were noised abroad throughout all the hill country of Judaea. 66 And all they that heard them laid them up in their hearts, saying, What manner of child shall this be! And the hand of the Lord was with him.

So we see John, is eight days old, and already praising God. No wonder fear came on all that dwelt round about them.

And his father had something to say as well

Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; 73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, 74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, 75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life. 76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, 78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, 79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

80 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the
day of his shewing unto Israel.

Now, John has one mission in life. His work is clear, and his dedication to this, is also seen in his life, which we could go on and on about.

And what was that Work? What was he to Be?

The one making the way for the Lord amoungst man.

So when clouded with the doubt of what can be learnt through the Scriptures, it is always best to check them directly. John was to prepare the Way for Jesus, Son of God, and ready the people for his ministry. He excelled in this, by all acounts, and did so upto the point of his untimely execution.

So, is Jesus Devine? According to Prophesy, Yes. According to Gabriel, Yes. According to God, Yes. According to John, Yes.

4 (four) different origins I have little doubt about. I would believe any one of these alone, based on their own belief.

And this has been noted without even considering the events of the Life of Jesus, other than his Baptisim and Conception.

Is this conclusive? For me, it's overwelming based on the Sources. To others, that have no regard for Prophesy, God, Gabriel or John the Baptist, I guess it may not be, but that again, it is the choice that needs to be made.

Ciao

Shane

how can we be sure that any source for the Christian Bible is acurate and uncorrupted?

There are people who claim God has spoke to them and told them Jesus was not crucified at all.

Originally posted by zorgon

You might want to look into ummm secret Tibetian manuscripts hidden in the lamasaries[sp?] if you haven't already. The Red Chinese never did find them when they raided

According to my grandfather, supposedly there are texts that document a student who traveled there from the West, and the name inthe document, was nothing close to any oriental name. But it was a name phonetically similar to the greek (or aramainc?) name of Yeshua (Jesus). My grandfather says that nearly all the 'tricks' Jesus did, have been done for thousands of years by Hindu and Buddhist Masters, and documented. He says that Jesus went to study there, at a monestary, since the documents are dated to within the time that we have no record of jesus (the whole teenage to mid twenties or whatever). It's interesting to say the least. Is this what you were reffering to?

[edit on 7/14/2006 by Arcane Demesne]

Originally posted by Arcane Demesne
It's interesting to say the least. Is this what you were reffering to?

For the purpose of this thread yes. I will post this link as it is available on the web. But there are many scrolls down there ... I have a picture somewhere... a lama sorting them... its been a long time I will dig it out...

But here is the story Jesus in Tibet


If you really seek wisdom, u2u me, have a link you might find useful


[edit on 14-7-2006 by zorgon]

Originally posted by zorgon
For the purpose of this thread yes. I will post this link as it is available on the web. But there are many scrolls down there ... I have a picture somewhere... a lama sorting them... its been a long time I will dig it out...

But here is the story Jesus in Tibet

I thought it should be noted, that this could be and accurate assessment.

www.asis.com...

Much has been written about the Lost Years of Jesus. Many accounts place him in India. One South American tradition sounds very much like Jesus visiting that continent. In fact, many say that the complete and speedy success of the Spanish invaders was due to this tradition; that the Visitor prophsied that He would return.

Consider. If Joseph had a fleet of ships, that gave Jesus access to worldwide travel. Do not doubt for even a second that world travel to ALL lands was possible. There is abundant evidence to prove the fact.

The main text deals with Christ living in Glastonbury during his "Missing Years" but as you can see, spoke to various "Other" possiblities, such as visiting India and South America.

Ciao

Shane


[edit on 14-7-2006 by Shane]

...claiming the Nature of God as his own. Calling yourself the Son of God would be akin to saying that your attributes are God's attributes.

Yes exactly! There are many of us who Believe & Understand that Christ's Attributes & Nature are ONE and the SAME as that of the "Christian God". He came to show us the Way to our Salvation - this was Promised by God & so shall it be.

If you are a Judizer & do not believe this - then we will part ways without seeing eye to eye on this issue.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
If you are a Judizer & do not believe this - then we will part ways without seeing eye to eye on this issue.

Not a Judizer.
I think we're having semantic issues that are probably my fault.

We'll try again another day...

Is there one source better than another for a good description of this concept...?

Essedarius, Start Here -> www.answers.com...

Originally posted by zorgon
One question directed to those that believe that God is omnipotent and All Powerfull..

Can God create a rock bigger than he can Lift?

Think about it... I did..

The question itself, is fruitless and meaningless.

The question, is asked, so that no answer can be offered, since it is constructed with the aim, of obtaining the desired answer, despite the response or reply.

It is asked, as a question would be, but is more of a statement in it's own design.

Regardless of the Answer, your result is fixed either way.

Despite a No answer, or a Yes Answer, you have the same conclusion.

Ciao

Shane


[edit on 14-7-2006 by Shane]

Alot of the talk from the scriptures goes over my head, and i don't care much for them anyway since my main purpose is to find out if they can be trusted in the first place. I won't use any scriptures for reference until they can be validated in the first place. After 6 pages of responses, it seems they can't really be, only sort of... in some cases. That's the logical conclusion I come to, well i had before, i just like to check up on my beliefs sometimes.

This Jesus in Tibet stuff sounds pretty interesting, i've heard of it before a few times but haven't really bothered to read into it. I'll check those links out later thanks. I can't see why it's not possible, and it does give a logical explanation to these miracles he performed ( If they actually did happen and were not added in years later ). I would like to state that i do believe that such 'miracles' can be performed, but are not limited to Jesus the son of god, and that we too, the sons of god can also perform them.
But like most things i believe, it's flexible : )

it seems unlikely to me that a man who was prophesied about hundreds of years before his physical arrival, whose birth was accompanied by a great astronomical event, etc. would have NOTHING written about him for 18 years. IMHO much probably was written about Jesus but tossed out. what we call the old testament had been around too long to mess with but the "new testament" was being formed as well as a shadow government to control it (what is now the catholic empire) and could easily have had much documentation destroyed. There was some abbott (whose name i'd have to look up) in the third or fourth century who decided that there should be only 4 gospels because there were "4 corners of the world", "4 elements", etc. he admits to destroying the rest that he had in his possession. my theory on WHY such documentation would be destroyed is: when you're forming a new religion, you don't want people to know that the leader of that religion already had their own religion. Jesus was a Jew-very possibly a member of the esoteric Essene sect. also, if you read the words ascribed to Jesus and read what Paul interpreted them to mean, you'll find a huge difference in "religions". paul was a well-educated, (possibly) well-meaning Jew who missed the point of Jesus message.

it was not an 8 day old baby John (the baptizer) that was praising God, it was his father who had been struck speechless over some argument about what to name the baby. when he finally agreed to name the baby "John" and wrote it down to show everyone that he was giving in on the name argument-the affliction was lifted and he could speak again. it was then that he began praising God for the miracle of healing, or a new son or whatever he was praising about (it doesn't say). See Luke 7:57-66. even john the baptizer had doubts about the divinity of jesus. See Luke 7:18-20

Originally posted by whitewave
it was then that he began praising God for the miracle of healing, or a new son or whatever he was praising about (it doesn't say).

I did not get this, from the text. I was believing there was two events here.

1, John Praising God
2, His father being blessed by the Holy Spirit, and prophesied

But it maybe as you have noted. This paragraph seems specific to the Family (John's), but I had viewed this as John's utterance of Praise.

I was believing his Father's Voice returned when he was filled with the Holy Spirit, and not prior to this, but I could be wrong. It' would not be the first time, and your observation in respects to this is welcomed and appreciated.

Luke 1:57-66 I think you meant. I couldn't find Luke 7: 57-66

Even john the baptizer had doubts about the divinity of jesus. See Luke 7:18-20

But here, I think this is misleading, Again review the Context, just as you noted above. Jesus Raised a person from the Dead?

John is not doubting Jesus. He just doesn't have a clue, who Jesus is. He has not seen his Cousin for about 18 years. The Missing years of Christ. That's all.

He is seeking Word of mouth confirmation from his own followers. His only input was based solely on the rumours moving throughout the region.

John fully understands who Jesus is when He Presents himself for Baptism.

(I maybe wrong, but I think this is the first time they are Together, since Christ was a Child.)

But again, thanks for your views.

Ciao

Shane

Coupla things: 1) thanks shane for correcting my misquoted verse. it was luke chapter one, not chapter seven. that's what i get for typing while correcting kids homework. 2) has anyone considered that Jesus was probably a member of the Essene religion? 3) Zorgon asked where all the people came from that Cain would be afraid of and who he might have married. Genesis 3:16 says that a woman's pain in childbearing would be greatly multiplied. This implies that she had children BEFORE Cain and Abel. Who knows how many. Until Moses brought the law that said incest was forbidden, incest was common. It's commonly assumed that Adam and Eve sinned immediately but the Bible doesn't guarantee that assumption. They could've been making babies for years before "the fall". C.H. Dodd (cited by Adam Clarke, The Holy Bible with A Commentary) shows that it would have been possible for Adam & Eve to have had over 32,000 descendants at the time Cain went to Nod, all of them having sprung from Cain and Able who married their sisters. In any case, Cain and Abel were old enough to have learned trades from their father (farming and shepherding). 4) Forgot who mentioned the two trees in the garden but they were not the tree of good and another tree of evil. It was the tree of knowledge of good AND evil as well as a second tree of life. Good and evil were elements of knowledge. Life was a totally different element. They were allowed to eat from the tree of life until they were driven out of the garden which may account for their wildly long life spans (930 years for Adam). By the time of Noah, the life spans had dwindled to 120 years. (see Genesis 6:3). By the time of Moses writings, our life spans were down to 70-80 years. We seem to be holding steady there for about 3500 years now. 5) The vastly documented, researched and scientifically validated "Bible Code" could only have been written by Someone who had a brain capable of computer like computations. May have been dictated to simian like primitives but the Writer was far more advanced. Someone "God-like". Also, read The God Code by Isaiah Braden. God signed His masterpiece like any great artist would. God's signature is in our very DNA; in every cell of our bodies. It says, "God/Eternal-In you". How clever of God, in an age where His creation declares God is dead/unnecessary/a crutch for the feeble-minded, etc., that He would use the very technology usurping Him to make His existence undeniable. God is SO cool!

God signed His masterpiece like any great artist would. God's signature is in our very DNA; in every cell of our bodies. It says, "God/Eternal-In you". How clever of God, in an age where His creation declares God is dead/unnecessary/a crutch for the feeble-minded, etc., that He would use the very technology usurping Him to make His existence undeniable. God is SO cool!

Yes, I myself have considered this possibility. Thinking about how in the Bible it shows that the Lord Elohim said "Let Us Create Man". Qabalah showing that the Hebrew/Greek alphabets also have numerical values.

"Everything is arranged according to Number and Mathematics." -PYTHAGORAS

I have found that this is especially true when it comes to Mathematical Patterns in Nature.

In that case, how does this relate to our Genes & DNA Sequence? Could the Bible also secretly hold the Organic Blueprint or the Keys to Building Blocks of Humanity? Could this be proven Scientifically? I think that we might be onto something here Whitewave!