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Checking a bible fact

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posted on Jul, 8 2006 @ 03:54 AM
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I see a lot of you guys referencing to Paul (Saul of Tarsus). Given that who was neither a Jew, nor knew anything about the Jewish religion, he's not someone I'd trust for anything. Especially the beginnings of the interwoven fabrics of a religion.

Just remember, a lot of the Gospels (especially Lukes [Gospel of Luke, Acts, etc.]) have been written and edited by followers of Paul, not followers of Jesus. The followers of Jesus were all Pharisees and had the New Church of Jerusalem (They were still Jews, they just believe that Jesus was a messiah [there were many messiahs]).

Paul on the other hand was a murderous Gentile who worked under the High Preist (Saducces), who in turn worked for Rome. The Saducces despised the Pharisees, that's where all the touble was.




posted on Jul, 8 2006 @ 09:55 AM
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Originally posted by Arcane Demesne
I see a lot of you guys referencing to Paul (Saul of Tarsus). Given that who was neither a Jew, nor knew anything about the Jewish religion, he's not someone I'd trust for anything. Especially the beginnings of the interwoven fabrics of a religion.

Just remember, a lot of the Gospels (especially Lukes [Gospel of Luke, Acts, etc.]) have been written and edited by followers of Paul, not followers of Jesus. The followers of Jesus were all Pharisees and had the New Church of Jerusalem (They were still Jews, they just believe that Jesus was a messiah [there were many messiahs]).

Paul on the other hand was a murderous Gentile who worked under the High Preist (Saducces), who in turn worked for Rome. The Saducces despised the Pharisees, that's where all the touble was.


I am weary of people pretending they know more than the Bible, just discounting it as if it is an unimportant little piece of backwater scribbling. It has been and will continue to be the "best-seller" of the ages, there are thousands who've staked all they have on it and found it to be true and worthy of being called the Rock on which to build, including yours truly.

While it is not all of God, it is God's revealed character, acts, and sayings encased in 66 books. If you don't believe in God, that is your sad perogative, but don't pretend to know and expound on something you don't even have any faith in.

The Bible says Paul was Pharisee of the Pharisees, his teacher was Gamamiel (sp?), he was a killer and imprisoner of Christians before he literally "saw the light" and learned through miraculous doings that Jesus Christ is and was the Son of God in human form. He was so "Jewish" that he thought, until the incident on the road to Damascus, that doing as he was to the Christians was 'serving God'. The Pharisees were hardly "followers of Jesus", since the Pharisees were the very ones who desired to kill Jesus lest they lose their position among the Romans.

I could go on, but just don't have the time right now.

Tell you what, though, you give me backup for what you're saying and I'll give you the verses I'm basing this info on. How's that?



posted on Jul, 8 2006 @ 10:15 AM
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he was a killer and imprisoner of Christians before he literally "saw the light"



Translation: got drunk and fell of his ass.



posted on Jul, 8 2006 @ 10:19 AM
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this is from my archives. the first I saw it it was signed anonymous and I have never
found who the author was except as it is signed inthis copy.

Religious Rivalries

Dear Children (and believe us, that's all of you), We consider ourselves pretty patient folks. For instance, look at the Grand Canyon. It took millions of years to get it right
We've been patient through your fashions, civilizations, wars and schemes.

We want to let you know about some of the things that are starting to tick Us off.

First of all, your religious rivalries are driving Us up a wall. Enough already! Let's get one thing straight: These are YOUR religions, not Ours. We're beyond them all. Every one of your religions claims there is only one of Us (which by the way, is absolutely true). And each claims its scriptures were written personally by us, and that all the other scriptures are man-made. How do We even begin to put a stop to such complicated nonsense?

Okay, listen up now. We're your Father AND Mother, and We don't play favorites among Our children.

Also, We hate to break it to you, but We don't write. Our longhand is awful, and We've always been more of "doers" anyway. So, ALL of your books, including those Bibles, were written by men and women. They were inspired, remarkable people, but they also made mistakes here and there. We made sure of that so that you would never trust a written word more than your own living heart.
You see, one human being to Us, even a bum on the street, is worth more than all the Holy Books in the world. That's just the kind of folks we are. Our spirit is not a historical thing. It's alive right here, right now, as fresh as your next breath.
.
Holy books and religious rites are sacred and powerful, but not more so than the least of you. They were only meant to steer you in the right direction, not to keep you arguing with each other, and certainly not to keep you from trusting your own personal connection with Us.

Which brings Us to Our next point about your nonsense; you act like We need you and your religions to stick up for Us or "win souls" for Our sake. Please, don't do Us any favors. We can stand quite well on our own, thank you. We don't need you to defend Us, and We don't need constant credit. We just want you to be good to each other.

The thing is, We want you to stop thinking of religion as some sort of loyalty pledge to Us.
The true purpose of your religion is so that YOU can become more aware of Us, not the other way around. Believe Us, We know you already. We know what's in each of your hearts, and We love you with no strings attached.
Lighten up and enjoy Us. That's what religion is best for.

What you seem to forget is how mysterious We are.
You look at the petty differences in your Scriptures and say, "Well, if THIS is the truth, then THAT can't be!" But instead of trying to figure out Our Paradoxes and Unfathomable Nature, which by the way, you NEVER will, why not open your hearts to the simple common threads in all religions.
You know what We're talking about. Love and respect everyone. Be kind, even when life is scary or confusing. Take courage and be of good cheer, for We are always with you. Learn how to be quiet, so you can hear Our still, small voice. (We don't like to shout).

Leave the world a better place by living your life with dignity and gracefulness, for you are Our Own Children. Hold back nothing from life, for the parts of you that can die surely will, and the parts that can't, won't.

Simple stuff. Why do you keep making it so complicated? It's like you're always looking for an excuse to be upset. And We're very tired of being your main excuse. Do you think We care whether you call Us: Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, Diana, Wakantonka, Brahma, Cerridwen, Father, Mother, God, Goddess or even the Void of Nirvana? Do you think We care which of Our special children you feel closest to, Jesus, Mary, Buddha, Krishna, Gerald, Mohammed or any of the others? You can call Us and Our Special Ones any name you choose, if only you would go about Our business of loving one another as We love you. How can you keep neglecting something so simple?

We're not telling you to abandon your religions. Enjoy your religions, honor them, and learn from them, just as you should enjoy, honor, and learn from your parents.
Know that Our Special Children, the ones that your religions revolve around, all live in the same place, (Our heart), and they get along perfectly, We assure you.

The clergy must stop creating a myth of sibling rivalry where there is none. Our blessed children of Earth, the world has grown too small for your pervasive religious bigotries and confusion. The whole planet is connected by air travel, satellite dishes, telephones, fax machines, rock concerts, diseases, and mutual needs and concerns.
Get with the program! If you really want to help, then commit yourselves to figuring out how to feed your hungry, clothe your naked, protect your abused, and shelter your poor. And just as importantly, make your own everyday life a shining example of kindness and good humor. We've given you all the resources you need, if only you abandon your fear of each other and begin living, loving and laughing together.

We're not really ticked off. We just wanted to grab your attention because We hate to see you suffer.

In Perfect Love and Perfect Trust,

Us



posted on Jul, 8 2006 @ 10:40 AM
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Nice post wolf, I think that covers some basic aspects of all of this.
However i do still stand by my comments about religion being a hinderance.
Anyone can work out for themselves to be kind and try to love each other, beyond that i feel religion has little to offer me. Attaching any other beliefs to that, other than the basic ones of love, may be incorrect. For example buddhisms reincarnation, and christianities heaven. ( However reincarnation makes alot of sense to me, but have read some very interesting points elsewhere which tie in reincarnation with the theory of there being no such thing as time, and the possibilitiy of infinite universes. Traditional reincarnation relies heavily on the currently accepted views of time )

I suppose I am speaking ideally anyway, and I would be happy to see religion change the world for the better. I just dont' think it's the right way to go about it, and it ultimately deprives a person of out of the box thinking.



posted on Jul, 8 2006 @ 11:25 AM
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That does not change the fact that:
a) The new testament was writting after Jesus' death
b) that alot of information was edited out
c) that many years out of Jesus' life is not accounted for, reducing more credibility


Mouth - it sounds like you are making the case for studying Gnosticism!



(1) Rewritten over and over through out the centuries.
(2) No validation on any of the topic's, except Jesus was a real walking and breathing individual.
(3) stories of the truth kept from us and with the highest of consent's, (VATICAN) kept from our knowledge.
(4) They have "NO!!" intention of letting us know the whole story of the man they called "Jesus" ever.


Allred5923 (& I agree with your Posting BTW) - it sounds as though you are making the case for the study of Gnosticism as well!


Arcane D - Saul WAS a Jew who became a Christian. "P"aul is what Gentiles called him - it is a Gentile name - but they were deriving this from his actual name SAUL - does SAUL sound like a Gentile name to you?


Also Enkidu - I take Offense at your last couple of Posts - you have Crossed the Line (= calling *ALL Christians* = "total suckers, losers and failures"). So what is it Enkidu - are Christians the Violent type or the type that lets others walk all over them? You can't seem to make up your mind! Let me assure you that although Christians may be Peaceful (just as Buddhists believe in Karma) - there are only so many Insults & spitting on that they are willing to endure before Defending themselves! You accused Christian Posters of being Biased - but I believed that YOU just revealed who has the
Real Bias in this debate!

[edit on 8-7-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 8-7-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 8-7-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 8-7-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]



posted on Jul, 8 2006 @ 08:20 PM
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Since it was ordered to be rewritten by King James-it doesn't matter when it was written originally. there are approx. 2000 differences from the texts found (dead sea scrolls?) Anyhow, it is a book written by MEN- except for Ruth????
So what if they want to call it a book of God

Lots of good parables, can't say I would depend on it for my spiritual health





[edit on 8-7-2006 by accountability]



posted on Jul, 9 2006 @ 08:27 AM
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I would be happy to see religion change the world for the better.


It is not religions place to change the world. Xianity tried that and the result was
THE Crusades, which Islam hasn't forgotten. The Inquisition and Witch Murders,
Which I will never forget. Ane the treatment of the Native American Peoples,
Which Noone should ever forget.

Religion, no matter what system of beliefs you choose can and should only
effect/ change the individual. It is the collective change/ awahening of individuals
that will change the world.

When dogma is finally put aside and basic beliefs examined then and only then
will "The World" finally realize that we are the children of the same Mom and DaD



posted on Jul, 10 2006 @ 01:00 AM
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Originally posted by curiousity

I am weary of people pretending they know more than the Bible, just discounting it as if it is an unimportant little piece of backwater scribbling. It has been and will continue to be the "best-seller" of the ages, there are thousands who've staked all they have on it and found it to be true and worthy of being called the Rock on which to build, including yours truly.


Not doubting that.



While it is not all of God, it is God's revealed character, acts, and sayings encased in 66 books. If you don't believe in God, that is your sad perogative, but don't pretend to know and expound on something you don't even have any faith in.


Problem. There are MANY more books that were not canonized (and in my view should have been). And it is not my place to decide if there is a god or not. I'm not an athiest.



The Bible says Paul was Pharisee of the Pharisees, his teacher was Gamamiel (sp?), he was a killer and imprisoner of Christians before he literally "saw the light" and learned through miraculous doings that Jesus Christ is and was the Son of God in human form.


Paul SAID he was a pharisee. That's so he could be liked by more people (Pharisees were the leading Jewish sect). The Pharisees would NEVER persecute anyone. They're what you'd call Liberals now-a-days. Paul was not a Pharisee. And Gamaliel would never have associated himself with Paul.



He was so "Jewish" that he thought, until the incident on the road to Damascus, that doing as he was to the Christians was 'serving God'. The Pharisees were hardly "followers of Jesus", since the Pharisees were the very ones who desired to kill Jesus lest they lose their position among the Romans.


Paul was from Tarsus. He converted to Judaism (from Hellinsim) as an adult and then moved to Jerusalem. He worked under the High Preist (of the Saducces), who in turn were under Roman rule. He did that because he was not born a Jew. A normal Jewish person of that time hated the Saducees.

The High Priest was the guy doing the Romans bidding in the Jewish populations, because they wanted the power (like they had in the olden days), that the Pharisees had. He picked the wrong side, so to say. So when people go on declaring themselves King of the Jews (Jesus and a few others), the Romans get antsy. Cuz if they have a king, they can unite and break the Roman bond they were under.

Jesus was a Pharisee, as were all desicples. James, and a few others determined that Jesus was the Messiah, and decided to "update" the Jewish Church. Being a Messiah does not, in any way at all, mean you're divine. All a Messiah does is break Jews out of a bondage and re-establishes the Kingdom. That's it.



I could go on, but just don't have the time right now.


please do.



Tell you what, though, you give me backup for what you're saying and I'll give you the verses I'm basing this info on. How's that?


Will do. Although, you're going to have to back up the vereses themselves, as they're not historically accurate by themselves. Stay tuned to for proof.



[edit on 7/10/2006 by Arcane Demesne]



posted on Jul, 10 2006 @ 02:56 AM
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Originally posted by T0by
So can i get this straight, is the bible that we read today the bible that was edited by the council of Nicea?


To answer this one would have to know which version of the bible you are refering to. King James, New King James, Common Bible, Old Testiment, the Greek translation, the Hebrew or the original Aramaic?

Whew a lot of translations since it was first recorded. but I am sure every word has remained exactly the same...

Well pretty sure....

Maybe...


[edit on 10-7-2006 by zorgon]



posted on Jul, 10 2006 @ 03:08 AM
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Originally posted by Mouth So who is right? Which one is a correct translation? .


It goes further than that. The Christian, the Jewish and the Muslim God are one and the same... most reputable religious scholars agree on this One God... three Faiths and how many splinter sects from the three main ones. Its no wonder the world is a mess. How can so much hate and so much blood be spilled in the name of the SAME GOD? Just to prove which group of men have interpretid His word correctly? And not one of them is willing to give in and admit that just maybe their version is not the right one, and will kill for that.

I bet He is sitting up their shaking his head, ready to "push the button"

A little Quiz here.... how many of each animal did Noah take into the Ark? Don't look it up answer honestly...



posted on Jul, 10 2006 @ 03:22 AM
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Originally posted by Essedarius

(I'm stealing this, by the way, from a 17th century french mathematician named Pascal


I have never read that before, thank you for sharing. I have long said something like that but never so eloquently.

I have one question that I have tried to get a proper no BS answer for regarding the bible. Perhaps one of you in this thread can answer...

First there was adam and eve, had two sons cane and able... cain killed able and was bannished. He feared for his life from the other men "out there"... God promised him he would be avenged... then he goes out an marries a woman...


Could someone please explain where all these other people came from?



posted on Jul, 10 2006 @ 05:51 PM
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Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by Essedarius

(I'm stealing this, by the way, from a 17th century french mathematician named Pascal


I have never read that before, thank you for sharing. I have long said something like that but never so eloquently.

I have one question that I have tried to get a proper no BS answer for regarding the bible. Perhaps one of you in this thread can answer...

First there was adam and eve, had two sons cane and able... cain killed able and was bannished. He feared for his life from the other men "out there"... God promised him he would be avenged... then he goes out an marries a woman...


Could someone please explain where all these other people came from?


Not to step on any toes here...

Genises is a rehash of the "Epic of Gilgamesh" with a few things thrown in and a few things taken out. The "Epic of Gilgamesh" has the 'man of old' not fitting into society, as well as the flood myth, as well as the sneaky snake (serpent). It's a blatant forgery. Once you read that, you realize that Adam and Eve weren't the first people...but rather, it was a metopher for how people are now aware of their surroundings, and that they're now responsible for themselves and others. After all, the Torah is a great teaching collection of books. But that's all they were. They were never meant to e taken literally. At least every Jew I know says that. And I know quite a few (lots of family and friends are Jews).

take it or leave, that's how I see it. It was a great learning tool for a particular people (Jews), as other books and myths were great learning tools for other growing civilizations.



posted on Jul, 10 2006 @ 08:47 PM
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Arcane D - I was just wondering if you could Contradict yourself anymore than you just did on that "Saul of Tarsus" stuff?!



posted on Jul, 11 2006 @ 04:02 PM
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Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Arcane D - I was just wondering if you could Contradict yourself anymore than you just did on that "Saul of Tarsus" stuff?!


Not sure I understand what you mean...

I was just trying to state that Paul (Saul of Tarsus) is a figure in history that many early 'christians' despised. They were really jews who believed that Yeshua was the next messiah, they didn't want to start a new religion. I call them christians, because that's how everyone seems to recognize anyone who thinks Yeshua was a messiah.

Paul was born in a Hellinistic Society, converted to Judaism (not very well I might add), and wanted to become part of their Society, so he moved. While there, he couldn't make it as a Pharisee (because he was not trained as a Jew from birth, it's hard enough getting in being a Jew), so he became a henchman of the High Priest (the guy who was the right arm of Ceaser in Judea).

He never met Yeshua himself, but claimed that Yeshua contacted himin visions. He is the only one that confirms this. And because he claimed to be a Pharisee (to appear to the populace), which was an outright lie, I wouldn't trust any one of his Yeshua visions. Especially since the actual people who knew Yeshua, despised Paul (Saul of Tarsus), and said that everything he was spouting, was nothing that Yeshua had ever even said.

I guess I should make it clear that I believe Yeshua existed. I just believe he was a good guy, trying to free his people, but failed miserably. Then some guy (Paul) so it sa an opportunity to make himself know in the world (since that's what he wanted all along, wanting to be an all important Pharisee). So he went to the Gentiles (which he was himself), since they would be none the wiser, and starting preaching his nonsense.

At least that's how I see it. Sorry if it was confusing before. And I believe this is completely relative to the thread, for this is what happened befoer the Nicea event. Without Paul, there would be no need for 'christian' leaders of a new religion to congregate together.



posted on Jul, 11 2006 @ 04:17 PM
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Arcane -

What is your source for all this information about Saul/Paul?
I'd like to read up myself...

And on a side note:


Originally posted by Arcane Demesne
I guess I should make it clear that I believe Yeshua existed. I just believe he was a good guy, trying to free his people, but failed miserably.


Jesus claimed to be God.
So he either was completely insane, a manipulative liar, or he was God.
(I'm stealing this completely from C.S. Lewis...he calls it the "Liar, Lunatic, Lord" theory in his book Mere Christianity.)

It makes sense. You can't say "he was a well-meaning, great man" about anybody who claims to be a diety...one of you would have to be wrong.



posted on Jul, 11 2006 @ 05:45 PM
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Originally posted by Essedarius

Jesus claimed to be God.
So he either was completely insane, a manipulative liar, or he was God.
(I'm stealing this completely from C.S. Lewis...he calls it the "Liar, Lunatic, Lord" theory in his book Mere Christianity.)

It makes sense. You can't say "he was a well-meaning, great man" about anybody who claims to be a diety...one of you would have to be wrong.



Your missing one other option in the Liar, Lunatic, Lord spectrum.

What if he wasn't a liar, or lord, or a lunatic. What if HE himself never said he was god, and people worshipped him as such? What if such things were infact added in later, or interpreted wrong? What if the writers of the bible really believed he was god, and thus wrote it in, but infact Jesus may never have spoken those words.



posted on Jul, 11 2006 @ 06:31 PM
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Originally posted by WolfofWar
Your missing one other option in the Liar, Lunatic, Lord spectrum.

What if he wasn't a liar, or lord, or a lunatic. What if HE himself never said he was god, and people worshipped him as such? What if such things were infact added in later, or interpreted wrong? What if the writers of the bible really believed he was god, and thus wrote it in, but infact Jesus may never have spoken those words.


That's a very fair point.

Although, when you look at the Bible, along with other documents of the time that we discussed earlier, along with the Nag Hammadi library, along with the zealous acts of Jesus's followers...all of them agree that the man who was called Jesus claimed that he was God.

Enough separate sources point to this fact to satisfy me.

Are there documents out there where Jesus is quoted as saying "Don't worship me or call me God...I'm not." ?



posted on Jul, 11 2006 @ 07:24 PM
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Originally posted by Essedarius


That's a very fair point.

Although, when you look at the Bible, along with other documents of the time that we discussed earlier, along with the Nag Hammadi library, along with the zealous acts of Jesus's followers...all of them agree that the man who was called Jesus claimed that he was God.

Enough separate sources point to this fact to satisfy me.

Are there documents out there where Jesus is quoted as saying "Don't worship me or call me God...I'm not." ?


Ah, but there are those documents. Ask around, but they have been squelched by the political religious leaders in the vatican, and cut out from the bible.

What you have in that book is the things that fit that the church wants you to believe. All other consensuses or things that dont fit therequirements are thrown out, destroyed, locked away, or just defamed ( like the gnostic gospels.)

You see no discrepencies or quotes like that, because it was all cut out to make sure of it.


Your reading a very chopped up document. All thanks to those beauricratical religious fanatics in the Vatican .Tsk Tsk.



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