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Russia new generation fighter

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posted on Jul, 1 2006 @ 07:19 PM
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Russia has anounced that they will launch new generation fighter in 2007. Also that coordinate engine could provide 10-12kg per kg dry weight. Generally, The aerodynamical layout looks like synthesized advantage of T.50 and I.44, so will go ahead of F-22 Raptor in future fight.




posted on Jul, 1 2006 @ 08:09 PM
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This aint the official picture, the image link is from photobucket.

I would guess they would have more stealth features then the one shown. The engine is just asking to be shot down by a heat seeker



posted on Jul, 1 2006 @ 09:12 PM
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Its also got external pylons.

There was a article on the web that stated the designer of the MiG-1.42 saying that stealth would only be placed on if it didn't affect performace



posted on Jul, 1 2006 @ 11:36 PM
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Wow, that's pretty ugly. Good luck to Russia if they can get this thing flying by '07.



posted on Jul, 1 2006 @ 11:42 PM
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Originally posted by emile
so will go ahead of F-22 Raptor in future fight.


Oh really?



posted on Jul, 3 2006 @ 07:50 AM
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Originally posted by emile
Russia has anounced that they will launch new generation fighter in 2007. Also that coordinate engine could provide 10-12kg per kg dry weight. Generally, The aerodynamical layout looks like synthesized advantage of T.50 and I.44, so will go ahead of F-22 Raptor in future fight.


Just for clarification; Emile's picture here is of the PAK-FA concept which is not out of development yet, that is to happen in 2007, the first flight should be around 2009 if all goes well.

It is widely considered that the PAK-FA will incorporate passive stealth (RAS) in it's design, and as most here already know with RAS you clearly give up some performance capabilities.

One has to wonder therefore just how viable plasma stealth technology is if they are giving up performance for stealth, something the Russian air force is on record as saying they would not do.

In regard to Emile's statement that PAK-FA will "go ahead of the Raptor", it is interesting to note that none of the Russian "5th gen" fighter designs including the PAK-FA incorporate any method of sheilding the jet exhaust from IR sensors, thus making them a virtual sitting duck to a Raptor in a WVR engagement.



posted on Jul, 3 2006 @ 09:35 AM
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Originally posted by intelgurl
It is widely considered that the PAK-FA will incorporate passive stealth (RAS) in it's design, and as most here already know with RAS you clearly give up some performance capabilities.


One has to wonder therefore just how viable plasma stealth technology is if they are giving up performance for stealth, something the Russian air force is on record as saying they would not do.


In regard to Emile's statement that PAK-FA will "go ahead of the Raptor", it is interesting to note that none of the Russian "5th gen" fighter designs including the PAK-FA incorporate any method of sheilding the jet exhaust from IR sensors, thus making them a virtual sitting duck to a Raptor in a WVR engagement.




Surely the compromise (if any) would depend on the choices made in the design. For example the F-22 doesn't have conventional LERX vortex generators, but uses the engine intakes/forebody instead. If the PAK-FA or whatever you want to call it goes down the route of a 1.42/1.44/EF2000 with the single underbody intake it could indeed have LERXs - perhaps not 100% ideal due to the leading edge sharpness necessary.


Good question, unless they are going for a combination of the two, use the plasma tech in areas which force compromises in manouvering - like the LERXs mentioned above, and RAM/shaping elsewhere.


The F-22's exhausts are not designed for low IR signature either, well, I've been told they haven't. Even if an exhaust is symmetric, doesn't mean there aren't IR reducing techniques in place. For example, there could be some mixing of cold external flow with hot internal flow [bit like the ugly old noise silencers on low BPR civil jets]. The nozzle on the F-22 will not aid mixing as it runs parallel to the exhaust flow, neither penetrating it or expanding into the freestream. But the task of sheilding a 1500 degree exhaust plume isn't exactly easy, and most likely they won't even try [like the F-22, JSF, Eurofighter, Rafale projects].

They could be looking at active countermeasures - DIRCMs?



posted on Jul, 3 2006 @ 12:54 PM
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I'm pretty sure the F-22 uses at least a little IR suppression. It's even used on the Super Hornet.

Here's photo that's been floating around a few Ru fourms. Again, it's claimed to have better stealth feautures than the F-22, whatever that means...





[edit on 3-7-2006 by JFrazier]



posted on Jul, 3 2006 @ 01:41 PM
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Originally posted by JFrazier
I'm pretty sure the F-22 uses at least a little IR suppression. It's even used on the Super Hornet.

Here's photo that's been floating around a few Ru fourms. Again, it's claimed to have better stealth feautures than the F-22, whatever that means...





[edit on 3-7-2006 by JFrazier]


Once again sorry, but this picture has been discussed some time agon and it's not a picture of two models for the PAK-FA or whatever You call it, it's an old picture of two models for the S-37 and if You tale a look closely You can surely see the forward swept wings ... and the rest is photoshopped !

... only a FAKE !!!

Cheers, Deino



posted on Jul, 3 2006 @ 01:54 PM
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Originally posted by Deino

Originally posted by JFrazier
I'm pretty sure the F-22 uses at least a little IR suppression. It's even used on the Super Hornet.

Here's photo that's been floating around a few Ru fourms. Again, it's claimed to have better stealth feautures than the F-22, whatever that means...





[edit on 3-7-2006 by JFrazier]


Once again sorry, but this picture has been discussed some time agon and it's not a picture of two models for the PAK-FA or whatever You call it, it's an old picture of two models for the S-37 and if You tale a look closely You can surely see the forward swept wings ... and the rest is photoshopped !

... only a FAKE !!!

Cheers, Deino


Thanks for the correction. I'm not big on Russian aircraft so it looked legit to me.



posted on Jul, 3 2006 @ 04:50 PM
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Originally posted by JFrazier
I'm pretty sure the F-22 uses at least a little IR suppression. It's even used on the Super Hornet.


It does for the wing leading edges [reduce supersonic heating and frontal IR signature for enemy IRST to lock onto]. The heat is drawn away [I think its using the fuel, but am not 100% certain], this excess heat is then vented out over the top of the fuselage via a heat exchanger.


One of the designers was giving a lecture on the F-22 here a while back, and assured us [after a question on it] that the exhausts/nozzles were not designed with IR signature in mind. From my own work, I also know that if a chevron nozzle [which is effectively what the F-22's nozzles are] is parallel to the flow, it does nothing for mixing, even for underexpanded flows [supersonic at nozzle throat]. Besides, as I said earlier, 1500+ deg C is alot of hot air to attempt to hide.



posted on Jul, 4 2006 @ 01:18 AM
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Kilcoo,
You are right, I stand corrected.
(yes, I had to ask someone)

Natalie~



posted on Jul, 4 2006 @ 07:50 AM
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Who are willing to tell out what's the advantageous of such aerodynemical layout?



posted on Jul, 4 2006 @ 08:06 AM
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Originally posted by emile
Who are willing to tell out what's the advantageous of such aerodynemical layout?


What layout?


I haven't seen one reliable sketch or photo yet to know the layout.



posted on Jul, 4 2006 @ 08:49 AM
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From what I can tell, they're using a parallelogram shaped wing surface. This is the stealthiest wing surface you can have and not sacrifice any performance. It acutally increases performance by creating a very unique airflow that causes the plane to be potentially unstable. However, we break the trend in this design with the canards and stabalizers. Had they designed the aircraft more like the F-23, they could have taken full advantage of the aerodynamic instability of the aircraft and used it to increase maneuverability through fly-by-wire.

One possible advantage is the way the air flow will be forced towards the horizontal stabilizers - however, they hamper this by placing the ECM pods righ there in the way. Be best to find a way of making those things internal - but I'm not sure of their functions and limitations - so that may not be possible. In any case - there's better spots for those pods.

I'm guessing they plan to out-maneuver any IR guided missile. That's going to be harder and harder to do - as the Aim-9X becomes the standard. Unless we've scrapped that project, too (all the good ideas get scrapped....).

If they want stealth - remove the durn canards and the horizontal stabilizers. angle the vertical stabilizers outwards to make 'ruddervators' and make them parallogram in nature - making their leading edge parallel with the leading edge of the wing on the same side.

Those are rather basic techniques - making leading and trailing edges parallel - saw-toothing 'cutoffs', rather than a straight cut. Combine this with RAM and composite structuring - and you have the potential for a very stealthy aircraft.

Of course - by taking some of those measures, you require some really advanced avionics - which implies a LOT of CAD. The russians seem to shy away from that a lot in their aircraft design, so that may not be happening very soon.

But you will not sacrifice performance. The F-23 is/was the most advanced combat fighter ever made. The aircraft was unparalleled in its maneuverability by any existing aircraft. Its design was very low in drag - so that gives it many additional advantages both in range and in cruise speed - which is beleived to have been above Mach 2 (which is going out on a limb... but reports of it indicate that it was a very noticable deal faster than the F-22 with the inferior YF-120 engine (the YF-119 by General Electric, which had a greter yield, was never tested in the YF-23, contrary to historical accounts of the ATF competition)). It's stealth charactaristics were impressive, to say the least, a great deal lower than those of the F-22.



posted on Jul, 4 2006 @ 09:13 AM
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The F-23 didnt have unparalleled in its maneuverability against the F-22. The F-22 won because that mostly that reason itself.

And the F-22 does incorporate some kind of IR reduction. A new ceramic-matrix RAM on engine exhaust nozzles to reduce radar and IR signatures.



posted on Jul, 4 2006 @ 09:26 AM
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Originally posted by Laxpla
The F-23 didnt have unparalleled in its maneuverability against the F-22. The F-22 won because that mostly that reason itself.

And the F-22 does incorporate some kind of IR reduction. A new ceramic-matrix RAM on engine exhaust nozzles to reduce radar and IR signatures.



Wrong - the F-23 was far more maneuverable in high-speed engagements. The F-22 did have superior low-speed handling due to its ducted thrust. However, since it is a standard aircraft, it suffers performance loss as speed increases.

The F-22's IR reduction is fruitless. You're talking a difference of, maybe, 5% - most of the exhaust is expelled before any cooling can take place. The airfoil of the Raptor is, in a way, designed to mix the flow from the root of the main wing, around the horizontal stabilizers, and into the exhaust stream. However, this fails to substantially reduce the IR emissions. Considering an Aim-9M can lock onto a cigarette from a thousand feet away - one will have no problem picking out a Raptor.

The hope is that the raptor will be able to out-maneuver the missile, allowing it to veer off towards countermeausers or just get confused.

The F-23 was the true ATF - the F-22 is a repackaged F-15 with 30% of the capability.



posted on Jul, 4 2006 @ 11:57 AM
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Originally posted by intelgurl

Just for clarification; Emile's picture here is of the PAK-FA concept which is not out of development yet, that is to happen in 2007, the first flight should be around 2009 if all goes well.


Here i ll just like to add that the design after being completed in 2007 will be flown by an "intermideate engine" (may be a 4.5 gen engine ) in the mean time a 5th gen engine will be developed according to the flight requirements by 2009 ...if all goes as planned then the PAK FA will "officially " fly in 2009


It is widely considered that the PAK-FA will incorporate passive stealth (RAS) in it's design, and as most here already know with RAS you clearly give up some performance capabilities.

One has to wonder therefore just how viable plasma stealth technology is if they are giving up performance for stealth, something the Russian air force is on record as saying they would not do.

the chief designer once said that it will be "as stealthy as the raptor"(not more ) ...only time will tell how stealthy it will be



none of the Russian "5th gen" fighter designs including the PAK-FA incorporate any method of sheilding the jet exhaust from IR sensors,

Are you sure about this in case of PAK FA...can you please enlighten me with a link....



posted on Jul, 4 2006 @ 12:06 PM
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Originally posted by Aim64C
Wrong - the F-23 was far more maneuverable in high-speed engagements. The F-22 did have superior low-speed handling due to its ducted thrust. However, since it is a standard aircraft, it suffers performance loss as speed increases.


Not from what I know.

The use of TVC allows the elevators to remain in their neutral position when the aero centre shifts due to supersonic flight [they used the TVC to trim]. This allows them to keep full manouvre authority, drastically increasing supersonic manouverability over all the teen series fighters - I seen the graphs of that, but alas no YF-23 comparison.


I would also expect the dedicated elevators of the YF/F-22 to offer much greater pitch moments throughout the speed range than the rudderons of the YF-23.

There is also the wider engine spacing impacting of polar moment of inertia for roll accelerations.


If the advantage of the trapezodial wing is that the aero-centre remains consistent in sub and supersonic flow, it should offer no advantage over the F-22.



posted on Jul, 5 2006 @ 01:49 AM
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Originally posted by prelude none of the Russian "5th gen" fighter designs including the PAK-FA incorporate any method of sheilding the jet exhaust from IR sensors,

Are you sure about this in case of PAK FA...can you please enlighten me with a link....

As there's just no way to shield the exhaust completely ... just in no way!

As such I would turn the question around: "can you please enlighten me with a link that thic could be possible .... "

Cheers, Deino



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