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Is Free Will a Curse?

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posted on Jul, 17 2006 @ 09:11 PM
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Originally posted by Herman
Free will doesn't mean anything to me if we get punished for making the wrong "Choice." God did not give us total and complete free will in the first place - we are not as intelligent as God, we can't fly or use any sort of super power, we can't shoot lazers out of our eyes, yet for some reason, God decided that it would be better to risk losing us to the fires of Hell rather than to just make it easier for us to believe. In this one aspect, God decided to give us complete and utter free-will. Then it would seem he hid himself from us! A mother doesn't let her child play with a loaded gun. Why? Because the child might shoot himself. The mother knows that she knows better than the child, just as God knows that he knows better than us. The mom isn't enslaving the child and taking away his free will, she's just looking out for his safety. Why? Because the mother loves the child. Why does God give us this loaded gun? God could easily appear to each one of us, stand before us, and literally give us a choice whether or not to worship him. Why doesn't he? I guess I just don't understand why God plays hide and seek games with our eternal soul.


Because the answer is simple and I know you know it, without this phenomenon they couldn't come up with the ultimate answer to all unanswered questions:
"God is testing you."




posted on Jul, 20 2006 @ 08:34 AM
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Take the example of Adam and Eve (all are familiar with that), before they knew of the tree they lived quite happily.
Then comes this Creator that not only points out the fruits of a tree but also hides in the tree a very clever Snake in the full knowledge that the Snake will tempt His creation because they are so knaive that they don't even know the difference between Good and Evil.

If you tell a child not to touch " the box on the table " you can be sure that as soon as you turn the other way the child will go to the table and open the box.
If I know that and you know that, didn't God Allmighty know that ?

Is that testing or tempting?
Why create beings that can be tested or tempted if He does not approve of that?
Why bother if He knows in advance that they will fail ?

Osbert+



posted on Jul, 21 2006 @ 08:47 PM
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God is always testing. One second of departure from God or disloyalty will be punished. God is faithful to the faithful.



posted on Jul, 21 2006 @ 09:57 PM
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Osbert~

I wrote quite a bit about the Adam and Eve thing a while back. You might want to read it, if you get the time.

The Sin of Adam and Eve


Great Tech~

We are born distanced from God--we are born disloyal to God....

God doesn't punish that which we cannot help--especially that which is of His express design. Maybe you would benefit from the above-mentioned thread, as well.



posted on Jul, 22 2006 @ 01:55 AM
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Originally posted by GreatTech
God does not play hide and seek games with our souls. God has complete command of our souls. If we humbly accept God's Will, there is nothing, within God's commanded limit, that we cannot accomplish.


But for a choice to be made, there has to be two clear options. Why does God have to deal with our soul in earthly ambiguities when he could very well present himself in front of our face and literally ask if we would like to choose him. It's very hard to believe in God when there is nothing to hold onto except faith... A choice is "Would you like this red apple, or would you like this orange?" A choice isn't "Based on things in your life, do you believe God exists?" I mean, I'm sure that if God came down to an atheist and demonstrated his Godly power right in front of him, there's no way that the Atheist would reject him. But when the eternal damnation of our SOUL is at stake, God won't let us know he's there?



posted on Jul, 22 2006 @ 04:07 AM
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Originally posted by Herman
Why does God have to deal with our soul in earthly ambiguities when he could very well present himself in front of our face and literally ask if we would like to choose him.


Where would the fun be in that? Seriously, God has to play the game by his own playbook. He has a very very fine purpose for making the world ambiguous in regards to whether or not we "choose" him. I am not trying to dog you here, but your statements are a fact that you do not know the real purpose of all of life in regards to why we are really here and how it relates to the end game.




It's very hard to believe in God when there is nothing to hold onto except faith...


Faith in God is hard to hold onto because he is unseen and faith is the belief of what is unseen. Of course this is hard to believe in, because we are all under the "strong delusion" the bible talks of concerning the Anti-christ. If God wanted everyone to see him today (like you said) he could come here and show hisself. You are missing the point in that no one can see God, and faith matters more than seeing something in the spiriual world. I know this seems illogical, but in this world, seeing is believing and in the spiritual world, believing is seeing. In otherwords, you wouldn't believe that a plane can fly unless you saw it, but in God's world a plane would never fly unless you believed it could first. You don't believe very much because you do not have faith and faith only comes through hearing the word of God. Hearing, of course is believing in something without seeing (the eyes). Savvy?




A choice is "Would you like this red apple, or would you like this orange?" A choice isn't "Based on things in your life, do you believe God exists?" I mean, I'm sure that if God came down to an atheist and demonstrated his Godly power right in front of him, there's no way that the Atheist would reject him. But when the eternal damnation of our SOUL is at stake, God won't let us know he's there?


There is a very clear choice for you and everyone. Do you believe he exists or no?
You have to make a choice of to believe in what you see, or what you don't see, but soon enough you will see regardless. Do you understand this? You are not an athiest, because if you were you wouldn't even raise questions like these, but you are undecided. It makes no difference to me what you decide, but it is your soul that has a destiny that could be very glorious if you let it.

Regards,
Mr. Ben



posted on Jul, 22 2006 @ 12:56 PM
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The desire for free will is greed for heaven's and the earth's riches.

God is Perfect and Holy. Humans are incontrovertibly imperfect and unholy so any desire for free will is imperfect and unholy, and misaligned with God's Perfect Will. Always pray to be in Union with God's Will so that He does not find fault in your thoughts, actions, and deeds.



posted on Jul, 22 2006 @ 05:34 PM
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Ben,

Let me start off by saying that I'm not an Atheist. I used to be a pretty strong Christian, but right now I consider myself a Christian in that I believe in Jesus, but I have a lot of questions and problems with the whole belief system. See, what you said regarding Hell makes sense. Or at least it would if we weren't dealing with our eternal salvation. It's hard for me to put it into the right words, so I'll put it this way. For now, and for the purpose of a semantical discussion, we can throw away the fact that biblical scholars have found that Hell was brought into Judaism through syncretism with Zoroastrianism. Let's take 3 main aspects of God. All knowing, all loving, and all powerful. Would you agree that these 3 are true? I would, but see, in order for Hell to be real, one of these 3 has to be sacrificed. If God was all loving, why would he let his creations that he loves more than we can ever understand suffer a fate like Hell? God doesn't want us to go to Hell. Even if we couldn't find God in our lifetime, and never commited to Christianity, why would God simply let us wander into Hell? Sure, you could say free will, but it's not as if we have free will over every aspect of our being. We can't fly like God, we don't have his knowlege, so why does our salvation hang in the air like this? A mother doesn't let her child play with a loaded gun. It's not because she wants to take away his free will, but it's because she knows better than him. When he grows up and learns what could have happened to him, he's not going to scorn his mom for limiting his free-will, is he?

Well, perhaps it IS their free will to go to Hell. But wait, God is all powerful. I would wager that if Hell was real, literally 100% of people on earth, when discovering this, would choose heaven instead. Maybe they've been misguided in their life and weren't able to find God. As soon as they saw Hell, I'd make a bet that they would rather be with God in heaven. Why, then, doesn't God save them? He's all knowing, so he must have known upon creating them that they were going to Hell. Well, maybe God just doesn't care... But wait, he's all loving...

Do you see what I'm getting at? Through my own experiences dealing with belief, I can personally vouch for anybody that the belief in God isn't simply a "choice." Sure, you can simply tell yourself you're going to believe in God because you're afraid of Hell, but if that's the case, why not Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc? What is a choice in God if you have nothing to base it on? I'm sure a muslim would tell you the same thing that you're telling me. Just choose Allah. If you don't, you're going to Hell. It's easy, right? If you wound up in Hell because you chose Christianity over Islam, would you say it's fair and just because it was your decision not to choose Allah??

I'm not trying to insult you or convince you that Hell isn't real or anything... I respect you a lot for your beliefs. Sometimes, more so than myself cause you've got things figured out for yourself. These are just questions I'm always asking myself. I guess it's just my nature to always ask "Why?" I've made these arguments in other threads on this forum, but it always dwindles down to the same thing... To stop asking why and just believe already! It's not that easy for me, I guess.



posted on Jul, 23 2006 @ 06:25 PM
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Ask for permission from God for His Will. The Infinitely Great God is Perfect and Holy. We are imperfect and unholy. Our "free will" is sinful, self-destructive, and abase. Only by learning from God's Will can we obtain the Way He desires for us. If we pursue or own "free will" we are in a never-ending cycle of sin. By showing intense admiration and humility for the Being who created heaven, universes, galaxies, stars, planets... can we discover at least part of God's Will.



posted on Jul, 24 2006 @ 01:48 PM
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Originally posted by GreatTech
Ask for permission from God for His Will. The Infinitely Great God is Perfect and Holy. We are imperfect and unholy. Our "free will" is sinful, self-destructive, and abase. Only by learning from God's Will can we obtain the Way He desires for us. If we pursue or own "free will" we are in a never-ending cycle of sin. By showing intense admiration and humility for the Being who created heaven, universes, galaxies, stars, planets... can we discover at least part of God's Will.


But if God's will was perfect, why did he create us flawed in the first place? Since he's all knowing and all powerful, he must have known that Eve was going to eat off the tree of knowlege. It just seems to me like all of this Hell business is limiting God's power. If he was truly all knowing, all loving, and all powerful, why would he be needing to jump through hoops just to get us to believe?



posted on Jul, 24 2006 @ 02:01 PM
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Who makes your choices? You, God, Devil.........because someone has to make your choice for you to have free will. Unless it is a person who doesn't believe in free will, then that person gets to blame God or the Devil for his choices\mistakes\misfortunes, whatever they can call it if it is not free will. If you cannot accept the blame then don't make a choice, unless you are like a rat in a maze that is fixed, you really have no choice, just one path to the cheese down a long winding road. That would be the cosmic joke if ya don't believe in free will, then your just a lost rat winding down the maze, starving around each corner until you find your cheese. Damn those wrong turns, sooner or later you'll get to the cheese.....lol.



posted on Jul, 24 2006 @ 02:06 PM
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To answer this thread, if free will was to be a curse, God would have some sense to make humans who dont question his rule at all. Free will, is created for a very strong reason, to learn on your own pace.



posted on Jul, 25 2006 @ 06:55 PM
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Originally posted by Mammoth
To answer this thread, if free will was to be a curse, God would have some sense to make humans who dont question his rule at all. Free will, is created for a very strong reason, to learn on your own pace.


Thought deeply, these statements are brilliant, Mammoth!

From the ages of 23 to 29, I had a partial rebellion against God, maybe even a little Satanic worship. But I never truly worshiped Satan. And for the last 11 years, I am 40 now, I have been increasingly dedicated to God. Even with the partial rebellion against God, I almost always had a negative view of Satan. Do you think Eternal Happiness or Eternal Damnation only begins in this life or can it begin in the afterlife?

Keep in mind, I believe the pleasure/pain ratio can be the same in Heaven and Hell, with the difference of having God's respect versus Satan's respect.

I choose God's Way of Eternal Love.



posted on Jul, 26 2006 @ 02:30 AM
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Originally posted by Mammoth
To answer this thread, if free will was to be a curse, God would have some sense to make humans who dont question his rule at all. Free will, is created for a very strong reason, to learn on your own pace.


If you want to look at it from this angle, we don't even have true free will. If God really wanted us to have completely free will, we would be equal to him in knowlege and in power. I'm not saying this is what I want, but how can we truley say we have free will if we're not given everything and then allowed to make a choice?

And more importantly, God wouldn't have to FORCE us to believe in order to make it EASIER for us to believe. What do you say to people who never found God, or to people like me who are losing faith? If God is truley all powerful, then he's either choosing not to let himself be known, or he's failing. You have to understand that for most people, it's not a choice whether or not to believe in God. It's not as if God and Satan both come to you and ask you to choose. If they asked me, I can assure you 10000000% that I would choose God over anything else. But it's not that easy. Knowing everything I know, I can't simply say "Ok, now I'm going to force myself to believe so that I'll go to heaven." I believe people need to find a reason to believe. I've prayed for that reason many times, but so far it hasn't been answered.

Furthermore, taking away our choice whether or not to go to Hell doesn't mean completely eliminating our free will. Let me use an analogy. A car manufacturer could make a car that will go every direction, but obviously can't fly up or drill underground. When the driver gets into the car, does this mean that he has no free will to drive because he can't drive the car up or down? I just wonder, at the expense of our free will, how many people have to suffer in Hell when God could easily save them?



posted on Jul, 27 2006 @ 11:00 PM
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I hate being ignored. I also hate being a thread killer.



posted on Jul, 29 2007 @ 10:13 PM
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God gave man a free will so that we wouldnt be a robot. if you made a robot that didnt know right from wrong and didnt know anything but to love you because it was commanded to... would that make you feel loved?
would it feel more like love if you gave it a choice to love you and do what you told it or to have the choice not to?



posted on Jul, 30 2007 @ 05:33 PM
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(Not a believer just speculation)
Why dose everyone asume "God" cares?, if you had a video game where you just watched a race of people you made grow and develop youd get bored damn fast, if you had a video game where you could wage war and smite people etc or tempt them into death youd be amused for days, remember acording to you people god mad man in his image (id say other way around but never mind) so we are supposed to be alike in the brain, I don't care about the billions slaughtered when I play age of empires I just wish I had the chance to tell my guys to go mass rape and inslave......Dutenomotry because the bible wasnt evil enough already..

"The Holy Bible"- Because all the works of science canno't equal the eternal wisdom of cattle-sacraficing primatives who believed every animal species in the world was in walking distance of Noahs house....

Sacrilege- macking fun of your insane belifes for 2007 years



posted on Jul, 30 2007 @ 05:43 PM
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And only a slave thinks free will is a curse, siriously without free will you wouldn't have your preciouse soul in the first place... because you wouldnt be in controll of it screw this I hope your preciouse day of jugment comes so I can chose.... Devil = eternal torture and the fun things in life (sex, free will, etc) God= eternity of anal licking christians = torture and no free will..... see you on the other side !! cause if that happens you'll find me knee deep in succubi, hellfire and brimstone, though despite this I doubt that anything will happen when I die, either reincarnation or complete and total non-existance..like before you where born... can't remember the 1670's? or the 2141's? cause you wernt and never will be alive diying will be like before you where born when there was nothing... get over it...



posted on Jul, 30 2007 @ 06:01 PM
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Well, if there were such a thing as "free will," I'd say no, it isn't a curse. However, it is obvious to me that "free will" is a man made myth. God never told man he had "free will."



posted on Jul, 30 2007 @ 06:04 PM
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How can it be a curse if it is God's will that we have free will?



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