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God, Sin, Lucifer, Satan, and YOU

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posted on Aug, 22 2006 @ 08:58 AM
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Exodus 33
18And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.


For good reason, you can not see God directly. For no man has seen God the father and lived. LoL If you read on. At least you can see the back side of God; That in its self would probably be mind blowing?!?

Also being in His presents makes your skin shine bright that it blinding to the eyes to those who look upon you. (see next chapter. 34)

I like the Moses story he was a cool dude.




posted on Aug, 22 2006 @ 09:49 AM
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Originally posted by queenannie38
Well, I'm not actually teaching my personal beliefs to anyone...I do object to misinformation, which is probably what you could call what I 'preach' about...The available sources of information are mispresented by so many


Make no mistake, Annie, you do preach your personal(I think) beliefs, and have stated so in the lines I quoted. You are extremely evangelical, though I don't think you like to admit that fact to either yourself or others. You mask it, perhaps even to yourself, in a belief that you're exposing misinformation that, in this case, is an interpretation of scripture different than your own.

Like Satan corrupting Psalm 91 as he tempted Christ, you, too, corrupt scripture. Is it by accident? I cannot say. It is done with an agenda, though. You have started with a philosophy and have forced the scripture to fit it, and reading through your posts over the years, that corruption of scripture in order that it might fit into your perspective has become more refined, your style of writing more laden with honey, and your corruption of scripture deeper and far more subtle. This illusion that has been erected over even your own eyes has become deeper and more blinding. Pride does that; it is what caused Satan to fall, and so many others as well.

I tell you this not as condemnation, but as a warning, both to you and to those who read your deadly honey. You believe yourself a prophet (again, you may not admit that publicly or even to yourself, but have said as much without using that specific word in the past). You have cursed three of us here on the board in the name of your god, and seek to lead people astray from the Truth of God in the name of the one whom you serve, the one whom would make you believe he is God, that he is all. Annie, there is a stiff penalty for false teachers and prophets, and it is spoken of throughout scripture. Though you probably believe these coming words to be unnecessary, I ask that you remember them. Many others and I are praying that this dark veil of lies that has blinded you be lifted and that you see the truth. If you allow the Truth to enter your heart, the enemy will come at you with condemning thoughts as you remember your false teachings. Just know that even that, even leading people away from God, can be forgiven through Christ Jesus' ultimate sacrifice on the cross. Remember that, for I pray that one day it will be relevant to you. If that day comes, remember that yesterday is history, your sins are forgiven and are as far away as the east is from the west.



posted on Aug, 22 2006 @ 02:14 PM
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Originally posted by junglejake
I tell you this not as condemnation, but as a warning, both to you and to those who read your deadly honey. You believe yourself a prophet (again, you may not admit that publicly or even to yourself, but have said as much without using that specific word in the past).


No, Jake I believe myself to be God's, a slave and a servant. And while I know there is no way you'd ever believe this, I don't get my information from anywhere but the Spirit, direct revelation...it often astounds me and it is never anything I could have come up with on my own.

Remember:


Luke 8:17-18
17~ For there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed, and there is nothing secret that will not become known and come to light.
18~ So pay attention to how you listen. For to the one who has something, more will be given. However, from the one who doesn't have, even what he thinks he has will be taken away from him."


and


Isaiah 45:3
3~ And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.


Has God called you by name, Jake?

Also: I have not cursed anyone. Ever. The name of christianity is a cursed name, but the name of the LORD is sanctified and holy. However, the Messiah is not named Messiah or Christ. Any person, however, is not cursed of themselves. Read Deuteronomy chapter 28. If you serve strange Gods, you will receive curses from God. Not any person, but God. If you call on God, you will receive blessings.

Jake, I've had far too many blessings in my life to think that I've followed strange gods. I have true inner peace and no troubles day to day. No where can such come from except from God!!!

You may doubt God is the one that I follow, but I KNOW, Jake. I KNOW who it is in whom I have believed...and am persuaded...

If you are convinced I am so much in error, then why let it bother you? The truth of God stands, regardless. Neither you nor I can do anything against the truth.


Acts 5:34-39
34~ But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law who was respected by all the people, stood up in the Council and ordered the men to be taken outside for a little while.
35~ Then he said to them, "Fellow Israelites, consider carefully what you propose to do to these men.
36~ For in days gone by Theudas appeared, claiming that he was important, and about 400 men joined him. He was killed, and all his followers were dispersed and disappeared.
37~ After that man, at the time of the census, Judas the Galilean appeared and got people to follow him. He, too, died, and all his followers were scattered.
38~ "I'm telling you to keep away from these men for now. Leave them alone, because if this plan or movement is of human origin, it will fail.
39~ However, if it is from God, you won't be able to stop them, and you may even discover that you are fighting against God!" So they were convinced by him.



Annie, there is a stiff penalty for false teachers and prophets, and it is spoken of throughout scripture. Though you probably believe these coming words to be unnecessary, I ask that you remember them. Many others and I are praying that this dark veil of lies that has blinded you be lifted and that you see the truth. If you allow the Truth to enter your heart, the enemy will come at you with condemning thoughts as you remember your false teachings.


I know your words are well-intended, Jake, and that you believe yourself to be correct while I am deluded and in error. However, I know I'm not. I trust God implicitly and am not liable to your judgment, only God's.

What you feel is truth is man's teachings. I have never ever trusted in men over God. God knows this. The 'dark veil' of lies is not between God and my heart. Whosever trusts in Him will never be ashamed or confounded (confused). I am not confused and I won't be ashamed at His coming.


Just know that even that, even leading people away from God, can be forgiven through Christ Jesus' ultimate sacrifice on the cross.

I am not leading anyone away from anything, Jake. The world is seriously gone astray, and christianity is one of the leading causes. How do I know this? The Spirit revealed it to me and it dropped my jaw for a long time. And to know I had to speak these things was abhorrent to me in the beginning. But God strengthens me daily and so I don't shirk from His calling. Even if I had to stand against the whole world, in His name, I would. If I had to die for this, I would.


Remember that, for I pray that one day it will be relevant to you. If that day comes, remember that yesterday is history, your sins are forgiven and are as far away as the east is from the west.

My sins were forgiven long ago, Jake. 30 years ago. God leads me and I follow.

And as Peter said: 'I must obey God rather than men.' I have been obeying God for 30 years. It truly does pay off, although not in a worldly sense. The more I follow God and speak what He's put on my lips, the more men despise me. So be it. I don't want the approval of men, of christianity, of anything wrought by the minds of men. My approval comes from God.



posted on Aug, 22 2006 @ 02:19 PM
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Originally posted by GreatTech
queenannie38, You believe in God's Omniscience. So do I. But how can you can say that God, the Infinite Power of the Universe, does not know the future?

I didn't phrase that very well. What I meant is that I don't understand omniscience to be prognostication; but rather ultimate awareness and cognizance of all things. God created man and knows human nature. Of course He knows what we will do, even if we are given the choices, He knows what they will be. But they are still our choices.


Do you believe that God is wholly or partly controlled by other external forces?

Nothing exists outside of God, Great Tech? There is no force greater than the Most High God! NONE!


Personally, I believe God is Infinite in prophecy and everything!!!


Infinite? As in endless? Endless in prophesy? Surely that's not what you meant.



posted on Aug, 22 2006 @ 02:23 PM
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Originally posted by The Mick
I don’t believe in "Satan" is truly evil lot of religions pin evil on him... I think Satan was the first to be corrupted but doesn’t cause others to fall, we make evil ourselves. People have always told me Satan whispers lies and tell you to do bad things… we have a natural impulse to do evil things but we can control it and ignore it. Maybe we have full control over ourselves and shouldn’t be trying to pass the check on to the boggy-man. Its odd how some people need things/people to take responsibility for some aspect of their life.




As in 'let's claim God's goodness for ourselves and blame our poor judgment and vain imaginings on satan!' He is bad, but we are good!

Right!!!! :shk:

There is no skipping right to the desert!

'How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat????'



posted on Aug, 22 2006 @ 09:27 PM
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Originally posted by queenannie38

Plus darkness is a fun attitude to wear, especially when doing 'good.'

Divine wickedness is a full throttle ride, surely.


Wow! Darkness in the Bible is associated with evil, and the definition of evil is:
The quality of being morally bad or wrong; wickedness.

That which causes harm, misfortune, or destruction


Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction

Wicked:
Evil by nature and in practice


Darkness and evil and wickedness are not to be sought after or underestimated.

1 John 1:[5] This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
[6] If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
[7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

To whoever will ever read this, Your eternal destiny is at stake. This is not a joke. You are going to spend eternity somewhere.



posted on Aug, 22 2006 @ 09:45 PM
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Originally posted by queenannie38
Well, I'm not actually teaching my personal beliefs to anyone--belief is not something that can be learned or taught


Of course you are.

Yes, everyone has to make up their own mind on what they believe to be true. But what you say influences others, and can confirm what they already feel to be true, because you come across as speaking with authority. But it is(there is no politically correct way to say this) authority that does not lead to eternal life. It does not save others.

That is why believers in God(Jesus Christ) are here, to give out information concerning the truth of salvation. That is certainly why I post here.

If a child grew up to 2 drug addicted parents who were gun toting drug dealers, the odds are great that his parents words and actions would play a vast part in how he would live his future life. If they used him and let him be a part of their dealings he would grow up to live like them.

Unless someone intervenes in his life to tell him and show him another way he's headed for trouble.



posted on Aug, 22 2006 @ 11:30 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
Wow! Darkness in the Bible is associated with evil, and the definition of evil is:
The quality of being morally bad or wrong; wickedness.


Wow! Guess where evil comes from, dbrandt????

Same place as everything else!


Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


For what purpose?


Psalms 34:21
Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate.


And who will do this?


Psalms 139:19
Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.


Guess who's helping in this task of slaying the wicked?


Isaiah 11:1-4
And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.


Better to be God's instrument of evil than to be the wicked that is destined to be slayed with that evil!!!

Man's evil is always evil. God's evil works for the eventual good. But even man's good is evil.

So what do you make of that?



posted on Aug, 23 2006 @ 12:24 AM
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God's "evil" does not exist. Instead, we have been granted the capacity for evil through the free will God grants us.

What is love? Does love exist if you have no choice but to express it? I would say no, and I believe God agrees. Instead, the option not to love must be present, the option to turn away must be there, in order for love to mean anything. As such, God allowed the serpent to exist in the garden, that Adam and Eve could actually love him. They, instead, chose to turn away.

So it is with all evil through scripture, from Abraham not trusting in God to provide him a son through his wife to Judas turning Christ over to the Roman authorities that He might become the military commander the Jewish scholars of the time believed the messiah would be. Evil has always existed in not trusting God, in believing you are greater than God (in wisdom or ability) or by ignoring God. Never in scripture is someome commanded to go against God's will by God. Saying otherwise is exactly what Paul warns against in 1 Timothy, to name just one place in scripture talking about such false teachings.



posted on Aug, 23 2006 @ 03:06 AM
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Originally posted by junglejake
God's "evil" does not exist. Instead, we have been granted the capacity for evil through the free will God grants us.


Doesn't exist?!??!?!


Does that mean that all these references in the bible referring to God doing evil don't exist? Or you do you just discount them because you don't want to go along with a God that dispenses both evil and good?


And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Exodus 32:14

Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you. Joshua 23:15

But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
1 Samuel 16:14-15

Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
2 Samuel 12:11

And Absalom and all the men of Israel said, The counsel of Hushai the Archite is better than the counsel of Ahithophel. For the LORD had appointed to defeat the good counsel of Ahithophel, to the intent that the LORD might bring evil upon Absalom.
2 Samuel 17:14

Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
1 Kings 22:23

And while he yet talked with them, behold, the messenger came down unto him: and he said, Behold, this evil is of the LORD; what should I wait for the LORD any longer?
2 Kings 6:33

Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.
2 Kings 21:12

Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the words of the book which the king of Judah hath read:
2 Kings 22:16

And it shall be answered, Because they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath he brought all this evil upon them. 2 Chronicles 7:22

Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.
2 Chronicles 18:22

Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the curses that are written in the book which they have read before the king of Judah:
2 Chronicles 34:24

Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.
Job 42:11

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Proverbs 16:4

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7

Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them.
Jeremiah 11:11

For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.
Jeremiah 11:17

Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
Jeremiah 18:11

And say, Hear ye the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle.
Jeremiah 19:3

Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon this city and upon all her towns all the evil that I have pronounced against it, because they have hardened their necks, that they might not hear my words.
Jeremiah 19:15

For I have set my face against this city for evil, and not for good, saith the LORD: it shall be given into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall burn it with fire.
Jeremiah 21:10

Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the LORD.
Jeremiah 23:12

For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.
Jeremiah 25:29

Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.
Jeremiah 26:13

Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him at all to death? did he not fear the LORD, and besought the LORD, and the LORD repented him of the evil which he had pronounced against them? Thus might we procure great evil against our souls.
Jeremiah 26:19

For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.
Jeremiah 32:42

Therefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them: because I have spoken unto them, but they have not heard; and I have called unto them, but they have not answered.
Jeremiah 35:17

Go and speak to Ebedmelech the Ethiopian, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring my words upon this city for evil, and not for good; and they shall be accomplished in that day before thee.
Jeremiah 39:16

And the captain of the guard took Jeremiah, and said unto him, The LORD thy God hath pronounced this evil upon this place.
Jeremiah 40:2

Whether it be good, or whether it be evil, we will obey the voice of the LORD our God, to whom we send thee; that it may be well with us, when we obey the voice of the LORD our God.
Jeremiah 42:6

Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah; and, behold, this day they are a desolation, and no man dwelleth therein,
Jeremiah 44:2

Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will set my face against you for evil, and to cut off all Judah.
Jeremiah 44:11

Because ye have burned incense, and because ye have sinned against the LORD, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, nor walked in his law, nor in his statutes, nor in his testimonies; therefore this evil is happened unto you, as at this day.
Jeremiah 44:23

And seekest thou great things for thyself? seek them not: for, behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the LORD: but thy life will I give unto thee for a prey in all places whither thou goest.
Jeremiah 45:5

For I will cause Elam to be dismayed before their enemies, and before them that seek their life: and I will bring evil upon them, even my fierce anger, saith the LORD; and I will send the sword after them, till I have consumed them:
Jeremiah 49:37

So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee; and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the LORD have spoken it.
Ezekiel 5:17

And they shall know that I am the LORD, and that I have not said in vain that I would do this evil unto them.
Ezekiel 6:10

Thus saith the Lord GOD; An evil, an only evil, behold, is come.
Ezekiel 7:5

Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Amos 3:6

For the inhabitant of Maroth waited carefully for good: but evil came down from the LORD unto the gate of Jerusalem.
Micah 1:12

Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil, from which ye shall not remove your necks; neither shall ye go haughtily: for this time is evil.
Micah 2:3





posted on Aug, 23 2006 @ 03:24 AM
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Originally posted by junglejake
Never in scripture is someome commanded to go against God's will by God.


Wrong again.


2 Samuel 24
1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
2 For the king said to Joab the captain of the host, which was with him, Go now through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan even to Beersheba, and number ye the people, that I may know the number of the people.
3 And Joab said unto the king, Now the LORD thy God add unto the people, how many soever they be, an hundredfold, and that the eyes of my lord the king may see it: but why doth my lord the king delight in this thing?
4 Notwithstanding the king's word prevailed against Joab, and against the captains of the host. And Joab and the captains of the host went out from the presence of the king, to number the people of Israel.
5 And they passed over Jordan, and pitched in Aroer, on the right side of the city that lieth in the midst of the river of Gad, and toward Jazer:
6 Then they came to Gilead, and to the land of Tahtimhodshi; and they came to Danjaan, and about to Zidon,
7 And came to the strong hold of Tyre, and to all the cities of the Hivites, and of the Canaanites: and they went out to the south of Judah, even to Beersheba.
8 So when they had gone through all the land, they came to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days.
9 And Joab gave up the sum of the number of the people unto the king: and there were in Israel eight hundred thousand valiant men that drew the sword; and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men.
10 And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the LORD, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.
11 For when David was up in the morning, the word of the LORD came unto the prophet Gad, David's seer, saying,
12 Go and say unto David, Thus saith the LORD, I offer thee three things; choose thee one of them, that I may do it unto thee.
13 So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee? or that there be three days' pestilence in thy land? now advise, and see what answer I shall return to him that sent me.
14 And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let us fall now into the hand of the LORD; for his mercies are great: and let me not fall into the hand of man.
15 So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed: and there died of the people from Dan even to Beersheba seventy thousand men.
16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.
17 And David spake unto the LORD when he saw the angel that smote the people, and said, Lo, I have sinned, and I have done wickedly: but these sheep, what have they done? let thine hand, I pray thee, be against me, and against my father's house.


God made David do something that was a sin in God's eyes! And God punished David!

Read Judges 9:23-57, also.



posted on Aug, 23 2006 @ 06:06 AM
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Originally posted by queenannie38
So what do you make of that?


Same as I always have, you have a wrong perspective on what the verses say.



posted on Aug, 23 2006 @ 08:59 AM
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Read plain and simply? It says what it says, dbrandt!

How can you make it mean something else when it states these things plain and simple?!?!?!!



posted on Aug, 23 2006 @ 09:36 AM
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You really do have to appreciate Biblegateway.com and other such Biblical search engines; type in a word and get every verse containing that word in that translation.

As it would take far more time than I have to give, I'm not going to go verse by verse. Instead, I will just point some things out. English is lacking in words describing "evil". What we translate to "evil", in Hebrew, can be any of 11 different root words, and in Greek can be any of 22 different words. Our definition on "evil" ranges from meaning inferior to morally reprehensible (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 11th ed)

I will address 2 Samuel 24, though, since I've been studying out of that book lately. First, I would ask you what sin was it that God caused David to commit? We read that the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and God "incited David against them, saying 'Go and take a census of Israel and Judah". We also know that David sinned against the Lord in doing this. It appears you're implying taking a census is sinning against God. Yet, Moses was commanded to do so twice during the Exodus, and God's anger wasn't kindled against Moses. Is God inconsistent? Hardly.

No, it wasn't following this command of the Lord's that was David's sin. Instead, it was not following it correctly. We read that God's anger was kindled against Israel, so He ordered David to take a census. From our perspective, that's an odd way to show your displeasure. Sure, it can be annoying answering those 10 questions or whatever and bringing the form to a mailbox, but really...Is the 10 year census here really that vengeful of the government?

However, in Exodus 30:12, God stipulates to Israel a law regarding any time a census is taken:


"When you take a census of the Israelites to count them, each one must pay the Lord a ransom for his life at the time he is contend. Then no plague will come on them when you number them"


Look at how this chapter ends. It ends with a plague upon the land because of David's sin. What was David's sin? Most likely it was not following this law out of Exodus, commanding David to take an offering of half a shekel from every person counted. God wanted to show His displeasure to Israel by having a census. Paying a ransom on your life to the Lord reminds you who allows you to live and breath, and would have served as a reminder to Israel. Yet, David did not do this, instead just counting the people (incidentally, this didn't include men twenty years old or younger, as described in First Chronicles 27:23, which would also have been disobedience to God's command).

So, God commanded David to do something. David did something similar, but not exactly what God commanded. Therefore, David sinned, and sinned in such a way where there is a specific punishment for Israel when such sin is committed.



posted on Aug, 23 2006 @ 02:26 PM
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You're reading too much into that, Jake.

It was egoistic of David...it was something to edify his feelings as the King--God would increase the Kingdom without number...and all people who would be citizens of Israel could be, if they were circumcised and followed the law. God's plan for the world was this assimiliation under the banner of Israel. David did it out of vanity.


And Joab said: 'The LORD make His people a hundred times so many more as they are; but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? why doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of guilt unto Israel?'
1 Chronicles 21:3


It doesn't say anywhere that God was mad because David didn't do what Moses did. The laws of Moses aren't even mentioned in regard to this.

As far as quoting all the verses, I sometimes like to be sure that others are able to read exactly what I'm pointing out, without having to click on thirty links to biblegateway.com.

Regarding your statement of:


As it would take far more time than I have to give, I'm not going to go verse by verse. Instead, I will just point some things out. English is lacking in words describing "evil". What we translate to "evil", in Hebrew, can be any of 11 different root words, and in Greek can be any of 22 different words. Our definition on "evil" ranges from meaning inferior to morally reprehensible (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 11th ed)


How do you figure that?

The word 'evil' is from the one root:

From Strong's:

H7489
רעע
râ‛a‛
raw-ah'
A primitive root; properly to spoil (literally by breaking to pieces); figuratively to make (or be) good for nothing, that is, bad (physically, socially or morally). (associate selves and show self friendly are by mistake for H7462.): - afflict, associate selves [by mistake for H7462], break (down, in pieces), + displease, (be, bring, do) evil (doer, entreat, man), show self friendly [by mistake for H7462], do harm, (do) hurt, (behave self, deal) ill, X indeed, do mischief, punish, still vex, (do) wicked (doer, -ly), be (deal, do) worse.


From Brown-Driver-Brigg's:

H7489
רעע
râ‛a‛
BDB Definition:
1) to be bad, be evil
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to be displeasing
1a2) to be sad
1a3) to be injurious, be evil
1a4) to be wicked, be evil (ethically)
1b) (Hiphil)
1b1) to do an injury or hurt
1b2) to do evil or wickedly
1b3) mischief (participle)
2) to break, shatter
2a) (Qal)
2a1) to break
2a2) broken (participle)
2a3) to be broken
2b) (Hithpolel) to be broken, be broken in pieces, be broken asunder
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2191, 2192


What 11 roots are you referring to, Jake?

BTW, I don't use Merriam Webster's dictionary when defining Hebrew and Greek words.



posted on Aug, 23 2006 @ 03:24 PM
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You're implying the Mosaic law did not apply to David and are making an assumption based on Joab's understanding of the situation. Then you are telling me I'm looking at it in too much detail because I'm taking the book as a whole instead of just an incident alone in trying to understand it?

Let's look at this using math since I think that makes it easiest to understand.

God said when you do A, be sure to do B. If you don't do B, then C will happen. So A - B = C

Pretty straight forward.

Now we have a situation where God says do "A". The end result is C. What can we infer from this? We know A C because God has commanded it. We know David is not being arrogant in doing it because God is commanding it. It is not arrogant to follow the will of the Lord, it is subservient. Therefore, something must happen to make A and C equal. Exodus gives us that value, subtracting B, or not paying the half shekel.

I'll get back to you on the Hebrew, I was using Logos to do a word study on Evil, but it is not non-Hebrew reader friendly, so I'll have to take it to someone else.

As to the MW College dictionary definition, that was not a definition of the Greek/Hebrew words, that was a definition of the English word. Strong's doesn't do much for the English language. I realize my explanation was a little obtuse, but I had meant to imply I was giving the English definition by using the word "our".



posted on Aug, 23 2006 @ 05:26 PM
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Hey, Jake, I understand Hebrew real good, don't worry about needing something besides just the plain old root words and what-not.



posted on Sep, 8 2006 @ 03:32 PM
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Queen, I read today in a post where you say you dont teach or preach, God loves you and uses you all the time. I am suprised to still see you use this site to let Ogd talk throw you God bless and go in his spirit.



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