Roswell Proof: Where is it?

Originally posted by nightwing

Were you serious about "sympathy U2U's" ? I will throw that in as well (smile).

Yes I was serious I haven't received any. lol If it made you smile then it served it's purpose.

Originally posted by nightwing

In a way you have answered your own question. What makes a UFO event "Famous" ? Take this thread for example.
What makes the Roswell Incident famous and the lost shaman incident, well,....lost ?

That was sort of rhetorical. Meant to address the fact that the "fame" of a witness or event doesn't make the data or testimony any more valuable or more relevant than data or testimony from lesser known events.

"Make sense? Anybody see anything I might have missed?" == Access Denied

This is really a NEW input, but that means it needs to be sifted a lot before
the questions begin. I love the details, cause thats where errors show up. But
so far, this jives with some of the details I look for. For example, Albert C. Trakowski
was indeed the MOGUL security officer before he became the MOGUL project officer.
My gut feel is that the "General" being referenced is unlikely to be Ramey, but rather a
superior in Trakowski's chain of command. When military folks reference "THE General",
it always means the guy in charge in their OWN chain of command, not somebody elses
general.

"Obviously the press officer was Lt. Walter Haut " == Access Denied

It's the conclusion derived from the source. This should be confirmed by the source, even
though you see it as a logical conclusion.

"Concerning a cover story for the project Mogul, there was no planned cover story." == source.

I will have more questions here. I will admit that this is a possibility, given the security problems
and reformations after WW II. For example, the AFOSI itself did not come into existance until 1 Aug 1948.
Cover stories have evolved over the years from the early days of "compartmented" programs, and it
is not the easiest area to research at all. I will enjoy seeing your take on all this as well, including
all the sightings you have listed.

Now this sounds fun!

Don't expect me to comment at least for 48 hours! Well or something like that ...

Edit: smiley needed.

[edit on 24-9-2006 by lost_shaman]

Originally posted by Access Denied
My gut feel is that the "General" being referenced is unlikely to be Ramey, but rather a superior in Trakowski's chain of command. When military folks reference "THE General", it always means the guy in charge in their OWN chain of command, not somebody elses general. == nightwing

That's true. I believe Col. Duffy was next in Trakowski’s chain of command and in fact according to Trakowski, Duffy called him from Wright Field (HQ AMC) when he got back to Watson Labs to tell him that the "stuff you've been launching at Alamogordo" had been sent to him for identification. Gen. Yates (AAF Weather Service) quoted in wire service newspaper articles on July 9 providing his opinion of the incident and Gen. McMullen (SAC) are the only Generals besides Ramey I know of mentioned re: the incident. I figure it’s Ramey because he’s the one who took control of the situation and had authority over RAAF and AAAF but I’d be interested to know who you think it might be?

Another possibility here would be Gen. Nathan Twining who was in the Area visiting Alamogordo AAFB, Kirtland AAFB and Sandia.

He arrived in NM on July 7 , 1947 and left July 11, 1947. He also gave a press interview about "discs" while in NM.

"I figure it’s Ramey because he’s the one who took control of the situation and had authority over RAAF and AAAF but I’d be interested to know
who you think it might be?" == Access Denied

And just how do you figure he had authority over AAAF ? He commanded the 8th AF, under SAC, which was commanded by Gen George C. Kenney (Maj Gen Clements
McMullen was Kenney's Chief of Staff and Deputy Commander) until October, 1948 when Gen Curtis LeMay took command. These folks were Ramey's chain of
command.

"Another possibility here would be Gen. Nathan Twining who was in the Area visiting Alamogordo AAFB, Kirtland AAFB and Sandia. " == lost shaman

And the WINNER is : (Drum Roll)

The MOGUL bunch worked for Engineering out of Wright Patt, then commanded by Brig General Brentnall, who was also deputy commander of
AMC. So I would say "The General" referred to by MOGUL folk might be Brentnall, but most likely was HIS boss, the actual commander
of AMC. (Lieutenant General Nathan F. Twining)

Hmm… could be a stretch but perhaps he contacted Twining as a result of his conversation in the diner. == Access Denied

And that brings up proper pointers to use for testimony investigation.

What details can we get on "the diner".
Who, what, where, when sort of thing ?

The reporter at the table behind him, however, who was new, hungry, impressionable, and knew nothing about science but read pulp science fiction a lot, saw a Professor in the company of a bunch of Army men talking about Flying Saucers and assumed it to be literally true.

When the first press report hit the papers two days later, Dr Crary went to the Mogul security officer and apologized, admitting he was the source.

O.k. first according to this , the date of the encounter in the "Diner" happened two day's before the "first press report hit the papers" and Crary appologises to the "MOGUL Security Officer" for being the source.

Assuming this means the first press report about the "Roswell incident" the date would have to be July 8 1947. Therefore the date of the "diner" encounter should be July 6th or possibly July 5th as Crary's Journal states he was in the office on July 6th.

We also know Crary's Journal states he left town on the evening of July 9th which only gives us a small window of time for this to take place.

We know Lt. Gen. Twining arrived in NM on July 7th , and visited Alamogordo and Kirtland , but not Roswell.

We know that Maj. Marcel learns of Brazel's find sometime in the afternoon on July 7th returning to RAAF in the early morning of July 8th.

We know that the first Press reports originated with Lt. Haut no earlier than noon July 8th shortly before Col. Blanchard goes on leave. ( Where does this "new, hungry, impressionable, and knew nothing about science but read pulp science fiction a lot, Reporter" come into play? )

We know Marcel is on a plane to Ft. Worth in the early afternoon of July 8th presumably with the "real debris" if we consider that it was only a MOGUL Balloon and the "debris" in Brig. Gen. Ramey's office has not been switched.

The question I have is when would Lt. Gen. Twining have "already seen it" by the time Crary talks to the "MOGUL Security Officer" ( Col. Prichard?) on presumably July 8th when Lt. Gen. Twining didn't visit Roswell and the "debris" was supposedly flown out of Roswell with Maj. Marcel to Ft. Worth on the afternoon of July 8th?





[edit on 26-9-2006 by lost_shaman]

Have you seen both of these old videos of the captured alien?

youtube.com...

youtube.com...

realanswers : Aren't these videos as much proof as it gets?


The answer is no.

The first is the Ray Santilli AA video. Santilli has admitted several months ago that this video was Hoaxed.

The second video is a trailer or clip from the end of the Ant and Dec Movie about the Ray Santilli AA film Hoax that debuted several months ago.

Originally posted by Access Denied

This presumably is a reference to Haut and the July 8th press report with the sensational headline “RAAF Captures Flying Saucer On Ranch In Roswell Region” which occurred "several days" later after the “first press report” which occurred “two days” after the “diner” encounter. This means the diner encounter occurred at least 5 (2 + 3 or more days assuming “several” means more than 2) prior to July 8th… i.e. this leads me to believe we need to start looking for clues on or before July 3rd. I hope that makes more sense now.

Opps just goes to show I'm not perfect, was concentrating on Lt. Gen. Twining and most have got ahead of myself.

If Haut is the "press officer" playing up the angle "several days later" on July 8th then it brings up a new set of issues.

First and foremost in my mind would be the fact that the "first press report" that Dr. Crary is apologizing for is not about the "Roswell Incident". As you pointed out it would need to be a press report from around July 5th tentatively.

At which point on July 5th or so Dr. Crary approaches the "MOGUL Security Officer" ( *Col. Prichard* ) to apologize for the "first press report" and is told "the General has already seen it and it's a better cover story than anyone else had thought up".

Now here is where the first big problems or not , depending on how you look at it, crop up.

On July 5th there wasn't a need for a MOGUL Cover Story. The assumption would be that only after Brazel found a MOGUL Balloon and it was reported via Lt. Haut's press release worldwide as a "Disc" on July 8th , then a cover story for MOGUL was needed.

There is only one major thing that Lt. Gen. Nathan Twining needed a Cover Story for at the time ( July 5th ) and that was the "Flying Saucers". Lt. Gen. Twining had the authority to initiate his own UFO investigation, which is exactly what he did on July 2nd. ( July 2nd was also the date of a major UFO sighting near White Sands/Alamogordo. )

One of the first things Lt. Gen. Twining did on July 2nd was to send Brig. Gen. Brentnall ( T-3 Engineering ) a routing slip with some summaries of Kenneth Arnold's sighting and a couple others that had been reported in the Press.

www.project1947.com...

That shows that Lt. Gen. Twining was reading and paying attention to "Disc/Flying Saucer" reports in the papers. That would explain why "the General" (Lt. Gen. Twining ) had already seen the "first press reports" that Dr. Crary was apologizing for.

That also explains how and why Col. Prichard would have already known that "the General had already seen it", and thought it was better than any other "cover story". Only the "cover story" is a cover story for "Discs/Flying Saucers" and not MOGUL.

If that's correct , then it also perfectly explains the "Circleville , Ohio RAWIN/Disc recovery" story that begins July 5th , but isn't printed until the next day July 6th. Lt. Gen. Twining got the idea from a false story in the Papers July 5th that originated with Dr. Crary.

Lt. Gen. Twining would have read that story and possibly immediately called Col. Prichard about it , where Col. Prichard would have to tell Lt. Gen. Twining that the story must have been given as a cover by someone from MOGUL operations. Twining had the authority to order T-2 Intelligence to plant false Stories of "Disc Recoveries" in the Papers and ID the "Discs" as RAWIN Targets.

That ( July 5th , " the first press report" ) would be where Dr. Crary realises that something he said about "Flying Saucers" had made the Papers and goes to Col. Prichard and apologizes and Col. Prichards tells him "Oh Well , The General has already seen it , no one will believe it and it's a better "cover story" than anyone else has thought of."









[edit on 27-9-2006 by lost_shaman]

Originally posted by Access Denied

another possibility I’m looking at is this quote from the Wikipedia article on Kenneth Arnold’s sighting that needs to be researched…

en.wikipedia.org...

Adding intrigue to Arnold's story, the U.S. military denied having any planes at all in the area of Mount Rainier at the time of his sighting. Likewise, on July 6 speculation arose in newspaper articles that the objects being sighted were due to either the "flying wing" or "flying flapjack," a disc-shaped aircraft, both experimental planes under development by the U.S. military at the time (see military flying saucers). The military repeated that neither aircraft could account for the sightings.

Hmm.

Here this Idea came much earlier , in fact it was an idea from Richard Rankin, Portland, Oregon Daily Journal - July 2, 1947 , he reported that he thought he had seen the XF5U-1, the "Flying Flapjack."

This was one of the reports Lt. Gen. Twining had mentioned to Brig. Gen. Brentnall also on July 2nd.

The Article is reproduced here. Rankin, Portland, Oregon Daily Journal - July 2, 1947

EDIT : Lt. Gen. Twining to Brig. Gen. Brentnall July 2 , 1947




[edit on 28-9-2006 by lost_shaman]

"Here this Idea came much earlier , in fact it was an idea from Richard Rankin, Portland, Oregon Daily Journal - July 2, 1947 " == lost shaman

I have always felt there is something missing in history here. Ever read Arnolds own personal account ? Not what the press spun in the
newspapers of the day. His description was NOT flying saucers at all. The saucer part comes from how he described their flying
characteristics, not SHAPE. I could easily read his description to be a "boomerang" shape. Also, this gets into what I believe just
may have been a "true" conspiracy situation, if there ever was one. Most folks who discuss flying wings do not realize that there
was a predecessor to the YB-49, prototypes of which had been flying around test areas since 1944. The YB-35 was NOT one of a
couple of prototypes. When ordered destroyed, there must have been around FOURTY of them hauled out to be destroyed. These
were acquisition planned bombers, with outstanding range for the time. A lot of missing stories and records here. Here is the
Wiki version, note the conspiracy story at bottom:

en.wikipedia.org...

Also note the colorized (?) photo they show. I believe it should more properly look like the one I am posting below.
As to the "air show" photo on the right. NO COMMENT. I do believe it very possible that Arnold may have seen a group
of these (In between B-35/B-49 maybe ?) in some kind of coastal range test flight. But this area is even harder to research
that classified areas.




[edit on 28-9-2006 by nightwing]

Originally posted by nightwing

NO COMMENT.

I have to admit that is an interesting photo.

I'm almost tempted to wonder aloud as to why there is no comment.

"I'm almost tempted to wonder aloud as to why there is no comment" == lost shaman

And others may as well. Not trying to be secretive here, just limiting speculation to areas
that do not fringe on real secretive places, and POINTING out that it IS speculation. Since
I already know from Access Denied's follow-on post that he has the same speculation, I will leave
a chalk mark on the cave wall for other explorers. Look at the conspiracy posted in the
Wiki link. Lets pretend it is not really a conspiracy, but a cover story. Where you go from there,
well the sky is the limit, huh ? And drifting way off topic I think.

But, where were we, back to figuring out a time line for our source's statement and context.

Originally posted by Access Denied

www.edwards.af.mil...

Its dramatically-swept shape (the same span and degree of sweepback of today’s B-2 bomber) was thrilling to see in the skies, particularly to a generation raised on aircraft of the 1930s and '40s. Seen from the side, it resembled a silver teardrop; viewed directly from the front, it nearly disappeared.

That's an interesting photo also.

When I first looked at it I thought the planes were being scraped , but that's' not what is happening at all.

The propeller engines and Flaps are being replaced as the planes are re-tooled into Jets.

nightwing : But, where were we, back to figuring out a time line for our source's statement and context.

I think if the Press Officer is Lt. Walter Haut then the time line should read

correctly if July 8th is considered the date that the "Press Officer played up that angle".

If Lt. Walter Haut is not the "Press Officer" then there really isn't a connection to Roswell here that is immediately obvious.





[edit on 29-9-2006 by lost_shaman]

"The propeller engines and Flaps are being replaced as the planes are re-tooled into Jets." == lost shaman

Kudos ! You got good eyes. What was the give-away for you ?

"If Lt. Walter Haut is not the "Press Officer" then there really isn't a connection to Roswell here that is immediately obvious." == lost shaman

I agree. That is a "must have" identification from the source. Also, 5 and 6 July were Saturday and Sunday respectively. Back in
those days, most places were closed for the entire weekend, even most gas stations. The military, outside of flight operations,
which were extremely curtailed on weekends, would have been the same. Plus the context of the day indicates the AAF
had a shortage of fuel funds and was only doing "mission essential" flying. Before you ask, yes I am searching for a source for
that to confirm my memory of something I read long ago.

Originally posted by nightwing
"The propeller engines and Flaps are being replaced as the planes are re-tooled into Jets." == lost shaman

Kudos ! You got good eyes. What was the give-away for you ?

O.k. Mainly , I know some of the History of these aircraft and I'm aware that the
Jet prototypes were converted from the prop driven airframes.
When I first looked at the pictures it immediately stood out that the planes were
being "ripped up" , when I looked again it registered that the planes weren't being
torn apart , but being reconfigured.

I know enough about aircraft to understand that reconfiguring the Flaps and Slat's
and size of the wing is directly related to the speed and performance of the
engines , it's only logical in the context of the times and in conjunction with what I
know that the photo shows the Planes being converted to Jets. With the first
Aircraft on the left having nearly been completed and the aircraft behind it in
various modes of reconstruction.






[edit on 29-9-2006 by lost_shaman]

Edwards AFB, was named after Captain Glen Edwards who was killed in the crash of a "Flying Wing."

www.edwards.af.mil...

Originally, Edwards AFB was known as Muroc AFB, which had its own UFO sightings just after the Roswell incident.

www.project1947.com...


More "Flying Wing" photos.