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Originally posted by Access Denied
Nah, I’m sure somebody can explain it to you.
By the way here’s some additional information Tim provided…
According to Pflock's book "Roswell in Perspective" P. 74:
"However, a crate that size would not fit through a C-54's cargo doors and the airstrip at Los Alamos was still under construction in July 1947 (and when completed two months later was too short for a C-54) [61].”
Note 61 reads:
“Smith as cited in note 60 above. When the Los Alamos airport began operations on September 1, 1947, it was nothing more than an unlighted 4950-foot dirt airstrip with a tar paper shack for a terminal; at its elevation of 7150 feet, the strip was far too short for a C-54 (James Rickman Office of Public Affairs, Los Alamos National Laboratory; Klass, Philip J. "Roswell UFO Coverups and Credulity," Sketpical Inquirer Fall 1991 p.73).”
This same statement appears in his book: "Roswell: Inconvenient Facts and the Will To Believe" P. 106. a decade later.
Originally posted by Access Denied
lost_shaman : Are you saying that because Pflock wrote it in his book , a 4,950 ft. runway would be way too short for a C-54 to use?
No I didn’t say that and neither did Tim Printy or Pflock… in case you missed it was the Public Affairs office at Los Alamos that did!
Oh come on lost_shaman, surely you're not that ignorant of basic combustion engine performance principals are you? You know all that boring stuff they tried to teach you in high school shop class about air density and all that stuff? If so (and I suspect you're not) then you truly have no business arguing about technical issues with likes of someone like say James Oberg's caliber now do you?
Access Denied : I'll check back in tomorrow to see if anyone's explained to you the difference between a C-54 taking off and landing on a 5,000 ft. long runway at sea level (0 ft.) and a 5,000 ft. long runway at an altitude of 7,000 ft.
quote: Originally posted by Access Denied
(yeah I know… send in the flames... but before you do... has anybody bothered to ask how your "hero" Schiff feels about all this now?)
The last point which I can’t repeat too often enough is the “Roswell Incident” ceased to be anything of interest to anyone 60 years ago… that is until it was “resurrected” 30 years later by a less than credible man named Jesse Marcel aided by a very clever IMO master manipulator named Stanton Friedman.
External Source
roswellproof.homestead.com...
Originally posted by Access Denied
As discussed earlier in this thread repeatedly no copy of an OFFICIAL press release has ever been found... see my earlier post re: Press Officer Lt. Walter Haut’s testimony… he can’t remember exactly what he was told to say and it didn’t seem that important to him at the time!
“He told me, that on July 8, 1947, Col. William Blanchard, the base commander dictated information about a recovered flying saucer and ordered Haut to issue it. He implied the story was designed to take the heat off the recovery of a UFO. That a weather balloon cover story would follow his release. Walter was convinced an alien craft had crashed but too many people knew about it.”
“The Roswell Daily Record newspaper ran a bold headline July 9, 1947: "RAAF Captures Flying Saucer on Ranch in Roswell Region. The same day, a statement was released saying it was only a weather balloon. "I guess they changed their mind," Haut told The Associated Press in 1997.”
“Haut said he never was told exactly where the flying disc reported in his news release was found nor did he, himself, ever see a UFO. But he remained a believer.”
"There must have been something in the skies at that time," he said. "There's just too much evidence."
www.freenewmexican.com...
My name is Walter Haut.
My address is: [-------BLACKED OUT-------]
I am retired.
In July 1947, I was stationed at the Roswell Army Air base, serving as the base Public Information Officer.
At approximately 9:30 AM on July 8, I received a call from Col. William Blanchard, the base commander, who said he had in his possession a flying saucer or parts thereof. He said it came from a ranch northwest of Roswell, and that the base Intelligence Officer, Major Jesse Marcel, was going to fly the material to Fort Worth.
Col. Blanchard told me to write a news release about the operation and to deliver it to both newspapers and the two radio stations in Roswell. He felt that he wanted the local media to have the first opportunity to have the story. I went first to KGFL, then to KSWS, then to the *Daily Record* and finally to the *Morning Dispatch*.
The next day, I read in the newspaper that General Roger Ramey in Fort Worth has said the object was a weather balloon.
I believe Col. Blanchard saw the material, because he sounded positive about what the material was. There is no chance that he would have mistaken it for a weather balloon. Neither is there any chance that Major Marcel would have been mistaken.
In 1980, Jesse Marcel told me that the material photographed in Gen. Ramey's office was not the material he had recovered.
I am convinced that the material recovered was some type of craft from outer space.
I have not been paid nor given anything of value to make this statement, and it is the truth to the best of my recollection.
/s/ Walter G. Haut
Signature witnessed by: 5-14-93 Max Littell. /s/ (Date)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roswell News Report
“The next afternoon, July 8, Col. Blanchard issued an official USAAF press release from Roswell reporting that a "flying disk" had been found "sometime last week" by a local rancher and that it had been recovered by the Intelligence Office at the base for transfer to "higher headquarters". United Press also reported that residents near the ranch saw "a strange blue light several days ago about 3 a.m."
www.crystalinks.com...
Originally posted by Access Denied
Oh really? That's funny I don't seem to remember that. Show me where you told me this repeatedly. And who's "we"?
Now there's a claim you're going to have to back up. Prove it.
roswellfiles.com...
The idea for Roswell Files was spawned by the countless threads The Roswell Incident has caused in Usenet Newsgroups such as alt.alien.visitors, alt.alien.research and sci.skeptic.
Are you saying Marcel didn’t lie about his military career and pilot experience?
P.S. You still haven’t made an attempt to answer the question posed by my thought experiment. Until you demonstrate a basic understanding of physics there’s no way you would be able to understand a detailed theoretical explanation as to why a 5,000 ft. dirt runway at an elevation of 7,000 ft. that didn’t exist at Los Almos in July 1947 is insufficient for a C-54 to take off and land from. Sorry but the ball is now in your court my friend.
Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
You must be joking. I honestly hope that isn't the extent of your research.
Thankfull, we have people on this board who have already done extensive research, complete with a host of documents, eyewitness statements amongst the many things provided as evidence that Roswell was indeed a UFO crash.
Originally posted by nightwing
www.roswellfiles.com...
NOTE: This is several years before the Project Mogul explanation was found by Ufologists and the AF. So we have Haut saying this
before it was known that it was a NYU Project balloon Alamogordo!
Originally posted by Access Denied
So in other words you don't know how to use Google to search Usenet? Here's how...
groups.google.com...
It's all there in black and white (ASCII text only actually ).
The link I posted was in regards to Marcel’s claims that have been proven to be false. The only way it could be “irrelevant to the current Roswell discussion” is if that’s no longer true.
I’ll give you a break on this one since you apparently didn’t comprehend the implication of what you said.
That’s not the point. The point was you either understand basic physics and could easily answer the question or you don’t and (here’s the double blind part of the experiment I didn’t tell you about for control purposes) you’d try to talk your way out of it.
First of all it’s not my argument. You’re the one who doubted the source without any way to back it up. Secondly, the explanation is actually complicated so I doubt you could understand it even if I did (as demonstrated above) so what’s the point in me wasting my time arguing about basic science with someone who’s apparently scientifically illiterate? If you’re not scientifically illiterate then you would already the know answer which you don’t otherwise why would you doubt it?
Originally posted by nightwing
NOTE: This is several years before the Project Mogul explanation was found by Ufologists and the AF. So we have Haut saying this
before it was known that it was a NYU Project balloon Alamogordo!
Originally posted by skyeagle409
[------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the 1994 Air Force Roswell Report #1.
Washington Post
GAO Turns to Alien Trurf in Probe
“Generally, I’m a skeptic on UFOs and alien beings, but ther are indications from the run-around that I got that whatever it was, it wasn’t a balloon. Apparently, it’s another government cover-up,
Steven Schiff, (R, N.M.)
www.gl.iit.edu...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[edit on 16-9-2006 by skyeagle409]
Originally posted by Access Denied
This figure by convention is given at sea level at a standard temperature and humidity. For the sake of argument, given the same temperature and humidity at a runway at an elevation of 7,000 ft. and all else being equal (e.g. actual weight, state of engine tune, etc.) it would take (an extremely conservative) 6,000 ft. of runway to take off according to the graph and information I presented earlier. Cleary a 5,000 ft. long runway is inadequate in this case. Now the runway in question is also not paved so we probably need to double this figure again to 12,000 ft. to be on the safe side.
Now do you see why it’s impossible or are you still not getting it and questioning the credibility of the statement made by the Los Alamos Public Affairs office?
[edited to clarify this as an extremely conservative estimate]
Originally posted by nightwing
Enuf already ! I GOT it ! You hate Printy and Co.
You KNOW that Mogul 4 dont exist. But do you know that on this site, each member can use a noise filter ? I have never considered using it before. Now I am beginning to understand the proper utility of that feature.
Originally posted by Access Denied
Wrong. Density Altitude is affected by altitude, temperature, and to a lesser extent humidity in that order therefore runway elevation DOES affect aircraft performance.
“Now let's go back to what we know. We know C-54's operated out of Kirtland AFB on a runway of 4,973 ft. at an Elevation of 5,354 ft. ASL. “ == lost_shaman
Correct me if I’m wrong but your previous assertion that C-54s operate ROUTINELY out of KAFB remains unproven. AFAIK all we have we have is some anecdotal evidence that C-54s were used to fly atomic bomb parts out of KAFB for the Manhattan Project. There’s nothing about that single data point that suggests “routine”.
“If we look at a Density Altitude Chart we can see that Air temperature is the decisive factor.”
Wrong. Pressure altitude (elevation) is a more decisive factor.
“I checked the Air temperature at Kirtland AFB earlier and it was 79 degrees F . By looking at the Air Density Chart you can see that if a C-54 is able to take off and land at Kirtland AFB at 5,354 ft. Elevation on the 4,973 ft. runway at a temperature of 79 F (DA of around 8,000 ft. ) , it would be identical to the Density Altitude of the runway at 7,100 ft. Elevation with an Air temperature of around 52 F.
If a C-54 is able to operate out of Kirtland on a 95 F day ( DA of around 9,000 ft. ) , then you could reasonably assume a C-54 could also operate out of Los Alamos Airport at around 78 F or less ( DA of around 9,000 ft. )..” == lost_shaman
Only problem is a C-54 couldn’t take off under those condition at KAFB so once again your assumptions are wrong and this entire post was a waste of our time.
Using the chart I provided which you neglected to use and given that a C-54 requires 3,000 ft. to take off at sea level, at a temperature of 79 F and an altitude of 5,354 ft an additional ~140% needs to be added to the normal take-off distance which means a C-54 would require at least 7,200 ft. to take off therefore it couldn’t at KAFB under those conditions because the runway is too short!
So how did C-54s take off from Kirtland AFB in support of the Manhattan Project? My guess is the conditions had to be right (e.g. very cold, looks like a temperature of 10 F might work but that’s highly unlikely and rare for Albuquerque) and/or they were specially modified (e.g. lightened, minimal fuel) for this particular mission…. who knows?
(Note this anecdotal evidence is the only reason I suggested Tim Printy check his sources on the statement about C-54s being unable to land at Kirtland.)
Anyway, I warned you about this being more complicated than it looks but apparently you think you’re smarter than everybody else and can get away with twisting facts to support your view of reality. That is called pseudo-science and you can fool a lot of people that way but I’m not going to let you or any other self styled “UFOlogist” get away with it if I have anything to say about it. In my opinion it’s people who like you holding up smoke and mirrors that cause this subject to be ridiculed.
Originally posted by Access Denied
Just because we have some evidence they flew out of Kirtland in 1945 for one particular mission doesn’t mean they were based there and it doesn’t mean they weren’t specially modified either. The point you fail to comprehend is a standard C-54 can’t operate out of Kirtland under normal (routine) conditions.
Right but again you jumped the gun and failed to check the rest of the information at the link I provided to the FAA guidance…
www.faasafety.gov...
Because high density altitude has particular implications for takeoff/climb performance and landing distance, pilots must be sure to determine the reported density altitude, and check the appropriate aircraft performance charts carefully during preflight preparation. A pilot's first reference for aircraft performance information should be the operational data section of the Aircraft Owner's Manual or the Pilot's Operating Handbook developed by the aircraft manufacturer.
If the AFM/POH is not available, use the Koch Chart (see next chapter) to calculate the approximate temperature and altitude adjustments for aircraft takeoff distance and rate of climb.
Do you have the AFM/POH for a C-54? Didn’t think so.
BS lost_shaman! Your opinion means nothing here. My assertion is an estimate based on the best available data and it still stands. You have yet to provide irrefutable evidence to the contrary.
And what the HELL does any of this have to do with Roswell????
If you want to continue to argue about this take it to U2U!
The subject of this thread is Roswell Proof: Where is it?