US Supreme Court Blocks Guantanamo Bay Military Tribunals

Didn't see Australia in there. Didn't see anything about "collaborators" being transported from Europe to the new world during the years 1914-1918 and 1939-1945.

OMG are you internet impaired, or just impaired?

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
Yes. Let's do that.

I never stated thousands of collaborators

Oh, really?

what I said were some of them were collaorators that probably were picked up with the rest of the detaines. I also never gave any actual numbers what I said was those detained during WWII numbered in the thousands. Now you have me saying I said there were thousands of "collaborators" and I never stated that.

Let's take a little look-see, shall we?

Shots SAid
I would assume most of them, to be honest I am not sure, but I am also sure that some were picked up after being turned in as collaborators by others and then detained as were many during wwI and wwII.

How on earth you ever turned the meaning of some into me saying thousands is beyond me :shk:

Kindly read and understand what was said before commenting OK?

Bold Is mine

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
Didn't see Australia in there. Didn't see anything about "collaborators" being transported from Europe to the new world during the years 1914-1918 and 1939-1945.

OMG are you internet impaired, or just impaired?

I never said australia was there I picked the best list available and for the record not once did I say collaborators were transported from Europe. You are inserting things I never said not to mention you are going way off topic and resorting to insults. Might I suggest you read the T&C for ATS?

Originally posted by shots
How on earth you ever turned the meaning of some into me saying thousands is beyond me :shk:

Kindly read and understand what was said before commenting OK?

Yes, how on earth did I ever do that? Well, let's read on and understand, shall we...

: Originally posted by shots

: Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
Oh no. No, no, no. You made the claim about "collaborators". I put it in context for you, you have to provide the numbers to back your claim.

Yes I did and I answered that it numbers in the thousands if you want exact numbers look them up yourself.

Ho, hum. That's a bit of a bugger, isn't it...

: Originally posted by shots

: Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
And while you're at it, tell me how many Germans, Italians or Japanese "collaborators" were imprisoned in the UK, the US or Australia after being picked up in their home country during WW2.

As for how many were held during WWII it numbers in the thousands. Don't believe me look it up.

And there was your original answer "in the thousands".

You see, shots, your problem is that I'm not making this stuff up. You said it and now you can't defend it. When you answered "thousands" I was asking about "collaborators". Now you're desperate to change your tune. It's not my fault if you decide to answer the wrong question.

As for insults, don't give out what you can't take. I'll take my warnings as they come.

And this is definitely on-topic as it is the legal precedent for the actions at Guantanamo and the creation of "military tribunals" you claim makes it all legal.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
You said it and now you can't defend it.

Oh but I can defend it. I just thought you had the know how to look it up, but since you do not here you go. click on the linky

Just nazi collorators

The pursuit of Nazi collaborators refers to the post-WWII pursuit and apprehension of individuals who were not citizens of the Third Reich at the outbreak of World War II and collaborated with the Nazi regime during the war.


1 Background
2 Means of pursuit
3 Controversial aspects
4 Pursuit in specific countries
4.1 Argentina
4.2 Australia
4.3 Belgium
4.4 Czechoslovakia
4.5 France
4.6 Netherlands
4.7 Norway
4.8 Poland
4.9 Soviet Union
4.10 United Kingdom
4.11 Yugoslavia
5 Middle East
6 See also
7 External links

[edit on 7/13/2006 by shots]

Originally posted by shots

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
You said it and now you can't defend it.

Oh but I can defend it. I just thought you had the know how to look it up, but since you do not here you go. click on the linky

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
You made the claim, you back it up.

Once again, shots, it is not incumbent upon me to look up anything. Burden of proof is on the prosecution.

Just nazi collorators

The pursuit of Nazi collaborators refers to the post-WWII pursuit and apprehension of individuals who were not citizens of the Third Reich at the outbreak of World War II and collaborated with the Nazi regime during the war.

Originally posted by shots
I am also sure that some were picked up after being turned in as collaborators by others and then detained as were many during wwI and wwII.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
And while you're at it, tell me how many Germans, Italians or Japanese "collaborators" were imprisoned in the UK, the US or Australia after being picked up in their home country during WW2.

Just to keep you on the right track.

Shots, you decided to compare the situation at Camp X-ray with the First and Second World Wars by saying a number of Camp X-ray detainees "were picked up after being turned in as collaborators by others".

So, I asked you to show me examples of collaborators being "picked up after they were turned in by others" and then transported to detentions centres outside mainland Europe (ie the UK, US and Australia, I could also have mentioned Canada) during active hostilities and then held for years afterwards.

You have singularly failed ot do so.

Your analogy was erroneous.

No "collaborators" were transported oustide mainland Europe for extended detention beyond the cessation of hostilities.

No collaborators were "turned in" to the allied powers for such tranport to take place.

Collaborators were often dealt with in public kangaroo courts which led to the humiliation of the accused and in some cases to public lynchings. I feel particularly sorry ofr the young women who used the only instrument they had to survive and then were harrassed for life for it.

Adolf Eichmann was neither a collaborator nor held for years without trial.

The Vidkun Quislings were dealt with by their own countries. France, however was able to pass all guilt on to Petain and Laval. It came as a particular shock when, years later, genuine collaborators went on trial and it was discovered how easily some French, particularly public-servants, had joined the Nazis in their crimes. It was a direct affront to France's dearly-held victimhood.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
You have singularly failed ot do so.

Your analogy was erroneous.

No I think you misunderstood me. I was referring to some detainees that are now at GITMO. Lets clarify this right now I stated

Originally posted by shots
I am also sure that some were picked up after being turned in as collaborators by others and then detained as were many during wwI and wwII.

Note the clarification that is underlined

now for the official record and check mate

The following decisions were some of the majorU.S. Supreme Court rulings during the 2003-04 term:

Guantanamo: Ruled 6-3 that foreign-born battlefield captives, held at the Guantanamo Bay Naval Base in Cuba as alleged collaborators with the Taliban or al Qaeda, have the right to go to U.S. courts to challenge their confinement.

Rulings by the US Supreme Court

Now you can rant and rave all you want, but as far as I am concerned, I say if the highest court in the US considers some of them as collaborators; that is just what the are. I am sure they are far more then qualified then you are.






[edit on 7/16/2006 by shots]

Originally posted by shots

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
Your analogy was erroneous.

No I think you misunderstood me. I was referring to some detainees that are now at GITMO.

Really, is that how it all got started? I never would have known.

Lets clarify this right now I stated

Oh, please, please do.

Originally posted by shots
I am also sure that some were picked up after being turned in as collaborators by others and then detained as were many during wwI and wwII.

Note the clarification that is underlined

Yes, I have been bringing you back to that again and again, maybe you're finally realising what you said.

now for the official record and check mate

Sorry, no knock-out punch there. Once again, you said some Camp X-ray detainees were picked up as collaborators and then compared that situation to BOTH world wars. I chose to focus only on the Second World War and asked you to show me how collaborators in WW2 had been treated the way Guantanamo detainees have been.

You can't do that. Because it didn't happen. Camp X-ray is a brand new circumstance, there is no precedent.

Your analogy was erroneous. I didn't misunderstand a thing, you misunderstood the foundation you based your argument on.

Guantanamo: Detainees denied rights a prisoners of war as delineated by the Geneva Convention. Some detainees are held as "collaborators" with the Taliban.

World War Two: Thousands of German, Italian and Japanese prisoners of war captured on battlefield and transported to the UK, Canada and Australia for imprisonment under the rules of the Geneva Conventions. Thousands of German, Italian and Japanese born or descended citizens detained and interned as "security risks".

Collaborators arrested, often tried by "people's" or "flying" tribunals (ie Kangaroo courts) and subsequently shot. Usually only after having all their hair shaved off first and swastikas painted on their foreheads.

Collaborators were not captured or arrested by allied forces or "turned in" to allied forces and subsequently shipped overseas for extended imprisonment without reference to the Geneva Convention until 1949.

Once more with feeling: Your analogy is erroneous.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
Collaborators were not captured or arrested by allied forces or "turned in" to allied forces and subsequently shipped overseas for extended imprisonment without reference to the Geneva Convention until 1949.

Your analogy is erroneous.

You can't do that. Because it didn't happen. Camp X-ray is a brand new circumstance, there is no precedent.

Yes there was, and it would be your analogy that is in error.

In Mississippi, suspected spies, collaborators and sympathizers were housed at Fort Massachusetts on West Ship Island.


Source NPS

They were crammed into freight cars and shipped to central Asia and Siberia. According to historian Timothy Snyder's work on Volhynia, Soviet occupiers and their local collaborators deported as many as 70,000 or 20 percent of the entire Polish population between 1939 and 1941.[13]
uncpress.unc.edu...

"We had essentially the civilian elements of the Japanese occupation from Japan, Saipan, and those members of the local people who were thought to have been possibly implicated (for collaboration with the enemy)," Savage said. "We had a cumbersome, awkward and slow procedure but finally they were released. Only a very few were shipped back to Saipan."
...

"There were also a number of women, the so-called comfort troops. They were a pathetic lot, totally unaware of what their rights were. They were later sent to Hawaii prisoner-of-war camps," he said.

www.nps.gov...

As you can clearly see some collaborators were detained in the US, Hawaii and others were shipped to Asia & Siberia by the Russians

Now what was that you were saying about there were none shipped overseas or to other countries?????



[edit on 7/18/2006 by shots]

Originally posted by shots

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
Collaborators were not captured or arrested by allied forces or "turned in" to allied forces and subsequently shipped overseas for extended imprisonment without reference to the Geneva Convention until 1949.

Your analogy is erroneous.

You can't do that. Because it didn't happen. Camp X-ray is a brand new circumstance, there is no precedent.

Yes there was, and it would be your analogy that is in error.

In Mississippi, suspected spies, collaborators and sympathizers were housed at Fort Massachusetts on West Ship Island.

Source NPS

Umm, just so as we're clear, where were they arrested?

They were crammed into freight cars and shipped to central Asia and Siberia. According to historian Timothy Snyder's work on Volhynia, Soviet occupiers and their local collaborators deported as many as 70,000 or 20 percent of the entire Polish population between 1939 and 1941.[13]
uncpress.unc.edu...

Er, perhaps you didn't notice that it was the collaborators doing the deporting...

"We had essentially the civilian elements of the Japanese occupation from Japan, Saipan, and those members of the local people who were thought to have been possibly implicated (for collaboration with the enemy)," Savage said. "We had a cumbersome, awkward and slow procedure but finally they were released. Only a very few were shipped back to Saipan."

Mm-hmm, okay, I know I'm no Yank, but isn't Guam part of the Marianas, the same chain as Saipan? Not sure where the overseas bit is in that...

"There were also a number of women, the so-called comfort troops. They were a pathetic lot, totally unaware of what their rights were. They were later sent to Hawaii prisoner-of-war camps," he said.

www.nps.gov...

Comfort women were impressed into service, they were not collaborators. I'm sure the thousands of Chinese, Koreans, Filipinas and various Europeans and Australians trying to sue the Japanese government would love to read your post listing them as collaborators. Japanese nationals serving as "comfort troops" are also clearly not collaborators.

As you can clearly see some collaborators were detained in the US, Hawaii and others were shipped to Asia & Siberia by the Russians

Now what was that you were saying about there were none shipped overseas or to other countries?????

At the risk of being labelled "snide"...

Newsflash, this just in: Asia is not a country! It's a continent and in the Russian (or Soviet) context it means all the land from the Urals to Vladivostok. Siberia is merely a region of Russia. (Which is beside this point: those you chose to highlight as being deported were not collaborators.)

Suspected spies arrested in the US and detained in the US are neither collaborators nor shipped overseas.

Women being held in Prisoner of War camps in Hawaii are being held under the Geneva Convention, unlike those in Guantanamo (until very recently, after this discussion began, in fact).


Now, back to the words you chose...

They were a pathetic lot, totally unaware of what their rights were.

This would imply that the US military administration on Guam ensured they were educated as to their rights and that said rights were respected.

As for your continued mis-reading of my words...

The analogy is yours. I never made an analogy, I merely proved yours false.

Do try and keep up...(That was snide, by the way.)


edit: quotes
edit again: quotes (we're back to this again, are we?)
[edit on 18-7-2006 by HowlrunnerIV]

[edit on 18-7-2006 by HowlrunnerIV]