The American Hate. MHO

Originally posted by Mouth


So, would you rather the US start blowing up everyone else? The ability to resolve issues by diplomacy saves lives. If force is needed, needed, it should only be the last resort. Why are you for killing people?

Yes I am for killing people. What do you consider the last resort? How many resolutions must be passed. How many times do you have to say "drop the gun"? The problem with your position is that I dare say you would never identify a time where you consider force is needed. If you can, I am sincerely interested to see what you think it is.

Do you know me? No. So don't make assumptions. You know where I find people that do not drink lattes? Through my community service hours for social work (volunteering) in the slums of bridgeport, CT, where I see many cases of beaten children and wives, hear terrible stories drug related, etc.

Your experience suprises me even more. Is there no evil or do you look at all these events as relative or pragmatic? Do you think these women and children are beating themselves? Are drugs distributing themselves? Come on. Sometimes you have to admit that there is a bad guy out there and telling him to stop abusing his child doesn't really seem to work. Hugging him doesn't work. You know what does? The cops knocking on his door. Guess what... that is an exercise of force.

Ask a stranger, geez, some people dont even know who the president is. So to understand politics, you need not to look at the people, but to the policies instilled by the polititians.

Truly that is a good point. There are stupid people and there are stupid governments. However, this is where I think you and I part ways on this one: I see it as my responsibility to make sure that the government instills and executes the policies of the people. The power to govern is granted by the people, and our freedom is inalienable. Liberalism has warped it to where, and Bill Clinton said as much, that freedom is granted by the government.



[edit on 29-6-2006 by hogtie]

"quotes" Originally posted by Mouth

The basics of democracy, if this country still is a democracy, should rectify that dillema.

REPLY: Geez... where to begin....
America has NEVER been a Democracy. Who taught you that? No "Democracy" in history has lasted more than 200 years.

ALL I WANT IS PEACE! .... and that should really be the face of our presidents campaign. Respect others to live how they want to live. Is it so hard to go to someone with a smile, and a handshake, and settle things diplomatically instead of using a smoking gun?!

REPLY: Are we back in the 60's? Look through history, and you'll find lasting peace has only been attained through victory. Sorry. Asking Hitler, Stalin, et-al, to "be nice and just get along" didn't/wouldn't do the trick. Talking to tyrants and dictators like Chavez and Castro to get them to free their people just won't work.

Protect our boarders...."

REPLY: I agree completely.

Focus on the energy problem and find a solution, fast.

REPLY:Government can't do that, and it's not their job. Only private industry can and should do it. And, no, Hydrogen will never work.

".... on a side note, the term "race" is very interesting...."

REPLY: I believe you mean "species." And I prefer "all" species.

Originally posted by hogtie

Yes I am for killing people.

What do you consider the last resort? How many resolutions must be passed. How many times do you have to say "drop the gun"? The problem with your position is that I dare say you would never identify a time where you consider force is needed. If you can, I am sincerely interested to see what you think it is.

Awesome. Don't worry, God has a "special" plan for you . Force has always been "needed," I guess... but can you tell me when there was a time when the world actually tried to stop the problems together? I know it is not going to happen, cause people are different. But really, if people came to an agreement, instead of firing shells at each other....

Your experience suprises me even more. Is there no evil or do you look at all these events as relative or pragmatic? Do you think these women and children are beating themselves? Are drugs distributing themselves? Come on. Sometimes you have to admit that there is a bad guy out there and telling him to stop abusing his child doesn't really seem to work. Hugging him doesn't work. You know what does? The cops knocking on his door. Guess what... that is an exercise of force.

actually, getting through to them through words and not force works alot better, and I know from experience. Why do you think convicts leave prison and still committ crime? I mean, prison sucks, but it doesn't change everyone, and I wouldn't even say most.

Truly that is a good point. There are stupid people and there are stupid governments. However, this is where I think you and I part ways on this one: I see it as my responsibility to make sure that the government instills and executes the policies of the people. The power to govern is granted by the people, and our freedom is inalienable. Liberalism has warped it to where, and Bill Clinton said as much, that freedom is granted by the government.

I think people are more ignorant than stupid. HUGE difference. people just don't know because a) they are not exposed to news/media, and b) they are too involved with their own lives. You think some guy living in a trailer park working at a peach stand gives a flying hoot about whats going on in the middle east? or what the government, who he never sees, is doing?

[edit on 29/6/06 by Mouth]

[edit on 29/6/06 by Mouth]

Originally posted by zappafan1

REPLY: Geez... where to begin....
America has NEVER been a Democracy. Who taught you that? No "Democracy" in history has lasted more than 200 years.

You're dead on. My real fear is that we won't be able to sustain our govt and freedoms and decline like Rome.

REPLY:Government can't do that, and it's not their job. Only private industry can and should do it.

Again, dead on. Liberalism has granted govt too much control through over-regulation of everything, as it is. Govt. can't solve our problems for us. That's giving up freedom for security.

Originally posted by Mouth

I know it is not going to happen, cause people are different. But really, if people came to an agreement, instead of firing shells at each other....

Here we see eye to eye. But human nature resists this. The animal kingdom has us beat when it comes to civility.

actually, getting through to them through words and not force works alot better, and I know from experience. Why do you think convicts leave prison and still committ crime? I mean, prison sucks, but it doesn't change everyone, and I wouldn't even say most.

In some cases you are correct. Property crimes, drug use and the like. But when convicts re-offend, and I'm talking violent crimes, it is not because nobody told them any better, it is because that is what they chose to do. Show me a man who raped a woman or child, who killed someone during a home invasion, and I will show you a person who is only sorry after they are caught.

I think people are more ignorant than stupid. HUGE difference. people just don't know because a) they are not exposed to news/media, and b) they are too involved with their own lives. You think some guy living in a trailer park working at a peach stand gives a flying hoot about whats going on in the middle east? or what the government, who he never sees, is doing?

You think the guy in the trailer park doesn't care about what's going on in the middle east? According to many democrats in DC that is exactly who is doing the fighting. Think about what you said. If you are poor you don't know enough to make informed decisions. I guess this is where the govt needs to step in and either make them not poor or tell them what to think. Or can it be that they are not informed by what you think the correct forms of media are. You sound very well intentioned, but that's a pretty insulting thing to say about "some guy living in a trailer park working at a peach stand".

quotes Originally posted by JSquared

hopefully, you are not ignorant enough to believe that statement.....Islam teaches the same principles as every other major religion...
It is those who contort the original teachings.....which also happens in other religions...that become the "extremists"....

REPLY: (From outside source)
And it was proven that Mohammad said: "Whoever changes his religion, execute him." Narrated by al-Bukhaari in his Saheeh. What this hadeeth means is that whoever leaves Islam and changes to another religion and persists in that and does not repent, is to be executed. It was also proven that the Prophet said: It is not permissible to shed the blood of a person who bears witness that there is no god but Allah and that I am the Messenger of Allah."

The above reply is talking about the "normal" Islamic view, as taught by Mohammad, not about extremists.

"Islam has been around for 1400 years. It is only a few hundred years newer than Christianity. It has been in this period for a very long time. One could mention the crusades, but think about that: The Moors who were Muslims were trying to conquer all of Europe. The Europeans who were Christians defended themselves against this takeover. Take a good look at what Islamic law is. Once you are familiar with it, you would fight tooth and nail not to fall under Islamic rule yourself."

The only extreme-ism that ANY religion is based on is the extreme love for this planet ....."

REPLY: I know of no "religion" that basis itself on a love for "the planet."

I dont' agree with the notion that this world is a better place with the United States; that's an impossible variable to contemplate and casualty could have thrown any X country into the sole position of world superpower. The United States may have helped with the two world wars, but all the same, previously in history and currently during that time, they were imposing harsh policies the world over from subordination of inferior races to it's deliterious intervention in South American, and it's imperial hubris the world over; Women had no parity and African Americans would have to wait well after the second world war to gain their equality and that even to the dismay of the elitists. The treatment and genocide of Native Americans has yet to be touched. So, really, I don't understand how the United States suddenly comes to this unmatched benevolence. Even now, after World War 2, the United States engaged in a myriad of policies that have remained to be productive and positive for a international community. They've been building up this negative image for decades.

The world is a horrible place regardless, and never has been universaly beautiful in the ideal fashion some like to create.

Luxifero

[And it was proven that Mohammad said: "Whoever changes his religion, execute him." Narrated by al-Bukhaari in his Saheeh. What this hadeeth means is that whoever leaves Islam and changes to another religion and persists in that and does not repent, is to be executed......

Actually, as that is an outside source that looks at in THEIR opinion, that very well may not be what Mohammad meant.....Maybe...just maybe...he was talking about ANYONE, including Christians, who manipulate the original divinities given to them....ANYONE that uses their religion as an excuse for violence has already defeated the purpose of that religion itself, thus making it false...think about how much Bush refers to this work being "God's plan".....what God would approve of the unnecessary deaths of thousands?....neither God nor Allah nor Buddha nor whomever....it is a veil that is used as a magicians blind....to hide the real truth from the people...

REPLY: I know of no "religion" that basis itself on a love for "the planet."

actually..if you could read between the lines...I wasn't being literal....I was referring to the love of everything contained and dwelling on this plane of existence....

Originally posted by Luxifero
The United States may have helped with the two world wars, but all the same, previously in history and currently during that time, they were imposing harsh policies the world over from subordination of inferior races to it's deliterious intervention in South American, and it's imperial hubris the world over. Women had no parity and African Americans would have to wait well after the second world war to gain their equality and that even to the dismay of the elitists. The treatment and genocide of Native Americans has yet to be touched. So, really, I don't understand how the United States suddenly comes to this unmatched benevolence. Even now, after World War 2, the United States engaged in a myriad of policies that have remained to be productive and positive for a international community. They've been building up this negative image for decades.

No, this was brought up in a previous post. I said "See, while everyone points out our history of slavery and genocide, at least we are trying to work through it as a nation and culture." And we are. When it comes to minority relations, we are light-years ahead of most European nations, because until recently there have been no minorities there. Oh, yeah. The Jews. They managed that well. Now there are minority groups in the Netherlands, Germany, France, and what is going on there? The US definitely does not have that going on here. Because we've been working at it longer.

The world is a horrible place regardless, and never has been universaly beautiful in the ideal fashion some like to create.

Yeah, I don't think it is possible to create it. Do you think that it is possible to view it as such through mystical experience?

Luxifero

Originally posted by JSquared

Actually, as that is an outside source that looks at in THEIR opinion, that very well may not be what Mohammad meant.....

I'm sorry, but you are wrong. I can give you page and verse of many, many passages that demand death to infidels, apostates, and the like. It will take I while. I have to get home first, and there are a lot.

Even Rumi believed that you had to deconstruct religious dogma to get to the source of God. Technically, I think that Rumi could have been considered an apostate.

Originally posted by dgtempe

his inability to speak as a president, his inability to think

Your hate is blinding you. Nothing is that absolute. Even Nixon's China policy gave some redeeming value to his presidency. Same with Carter, it wasn't all about the terrible economy with double-digit inflation he presided over or the iran hostage crisis that he so terribly bungled.

I've heard a lot of presidents make speeches, and IMO Bush's speech in Congress right after the 9/11 attack was - if not the best - one of the best presidential speeches I've ever heard. Exactly what the nation - and world - needed to hear at the time.


[edit on 6/29/2006 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by hogtie

I'm sorry, but you are wrong.

Let me correct my own self. You are right about it being an outside source, but it still doesn't change what the Koran calls for.

LUXIFERO,

Wow, that is a neat trick.
The U.S. is the ONLY country that has ever owned slaves, treated women as second-class citizens and just generally been a bully.
Oh...extra points for bringing up stuff from over a hundred years ago! Bravo!
Now, if you could just read the collective histories of EVERY OTHER NATION that ever existed in the history of mankind, I'm sure you'll find that we rotten Yanks rank right up there with the Massai or maybe the Luxembourgers...possibly even the French...oh no, thats right, they stopped warring after their W got sent to Elba.
I feel dirty.

Those who turn their swords into ploughshares will be plowing the fields of those who didn't.

Hogtie,

Love your signature, as it is one of the best 'arguments' against appeasement and unilateral disarmament that I've ever seen.

Hogtie,

Love your signature, as it is one of the best 'arguments' against appeasement and unilateral disarmament that I've ever seen.

Thank you. Wish it were my own, but it came from someone more elloquent than myself. Spread it around!

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by dgtempe

his inability to speak as a president, his inability to think

I've heard a lot of presidents make speeches, and IMO Bush's speech in Congress right after the 9/11 attack was - if not the best - one of the best presidential speeches I've ever heard. Exactly what the nation - and world - needed to hear at the time.

[edit on 6/29/2006 by centurion1211]

oh yes it was probably the best because it was prepared

triptrippington,

It's not a trick, but did you notice how it pertained to this sentiment regarding the U.S and not any country. Did you, really?

Luxifero

Originally posted by eber

oh yes it was probably the best because it was prepared

Ever hear the term "presidential speech writer"?

Hint: All president's have them.

Much of the power of any speech is in the delivery - and that time Bush had it. Not saying he's had it every time by any means, but that time - when it was really needed - Bush rose to the occasion.

Originally posted by hogtie

Let me correct my own self. You are right about it being an outside source, but it still doesn't change what the Koran calls for.

What does the quran call for?

Execution of people who convert is not in the quran but is in another source outside of it called the hadeeth.

There are tens of thousands of different hadeeths out there some groups follow all of them while other may only follow some of them while others will follow none of them.

Stuff written in hadeeths is not the actual words of mohammed but are what other people claim he has said in most cases hadeeths have even been compiled and created hundreds of years after his death by people who have never met him.

Alot of hadeeths where made for political/business gain and where forged using his name for peoples persoanl gains.

Anyway back to the hadeeths that call for people to be executed interestingly this was for people who convert in and out of religon to use conversion into islam for strategic purposes.

Like for example if you attack muslims then the punishment for commiting crimes is death but if a person repents and says he was wrong and wants to be a muslim he is then spared the death penalty for his crimes becuase he has changed his/her ways but if he just converted into islam to escape the death penalty and then changes religon he is to be executed. Thats what the origanal islamic law is and always was infact even some hadeeths confirm this.

Even the bible and torah have punishment for leaving there religon.

The death penalty is not for those who where born in muslim families becuase having a muslim mother and father does not equal a muslim child. It is only for those who convert in and out and jump religon to religon and those who use religon conversion as a strategic tool.

[edit on 29-6-2006 by iqonx]

Originally posted by triptrippington
LUXIFERO,

Wow, that is a neat trick.
The U.S. is the ONLY country that has ever owned slaves, treated women as second-class citizens and just generally been a bully.

Actually the US is not the only country that has ever owned slaves, treated women as second-class citizens, and been a bully. Britain was one of the creators of the slave trade just for an example.