Did you take a survey amongst all the Black people in the United States in order to reach your findings regarding their use of the "n-word"? How do you know that Black people frequently use it more than White people? I would certainly love to know how you came to that conclusion.[edit on 2-7-2006 by ceci2006]

Here's a flash for ya, I didn't take a poll and don't care to. I count my friends on one hand, two of my fingers are black. Thats after 37 years on this planet and not all under the best of conditions. I live here and I watch TV and I hear the radio and I hear them get worked up about it. The hardest working people I know are black. The bravest people I know are black, not victims or African American for that matter. I know their American. The only time I hear African American is on TV. When did all the so called African Americans get together and decide they wanted that moniker? Where is their clubhouse btw? How many black folks you meet on the street want to be called that anyways? Ever? One?

One of that short list was enlisted under me. I went out of my way to help him become an officer, wasn't a huge stretch, not that it mattered, he deserved a commision alot like a lot of white guys. I now call him sir and he deserves the respect of being called sir, until my enlistment ended atleast. Now I call him Ghengis, inside joke. He's a smart man, something the Dems and the media try not to portray. Call him a 'n-word' when I'm around and that's the end of your worries. If he doesn't teach you your errors, I will.

Blah...Blah.....

wake up whitey your dreaming! any of you whites out there who think for one minute that the "we are all equal" ideology is shared by minorities because its the "truth" are living in la la land. Yes you can have most minorities parrot this ideology but only for the reason it leaves the people whose ancestors oppressed theirs at a disadvantage and is VERY beneficial to them. They can get jobs and social programs and money for college to improve their lives and climb to a position to oppress you and it will and is begining to happen.

I propose you take a step into the corrections system. It's what opened my eyes.

someone once said..."you can make a fair determination of the people of a country by looking into their corrections system" not an exact quote but that was the jist of it.

Ok lets do that..here is my personal expierence....

I saw whites beaten, robbed, raped and nearly killed becasue they were white and "deserved it".

The only whites that were not attacked were the Aryans...minority gangs view whites who have the "were are all equal" attitude as being weak doesnt matter if it is black gangs, mexican mafia, whatever.....it is the law of the land that race determines who and what group you are with.

my friend who is a cop for a juvenile detention center witness 6 15 year old black boys raping a 10 year old white boy and taking turns doing it. He was also attacked by the blacks for protecting the boy and stoping the rape. Many will freely admit to you they target whites because your grand daddy had his working in a field.

White need to become more racially aware and release the minority crime is not the result of poverty but of revenge.

Again, notbuynit, I'm glad for you. I'm just saying that it isn't like all Black people throw the "n-word" around willy nilly. Some do and some don't.

As I said before, I don't use it. I don't care to use it. And I certainly don't want it used around me.

But, if Black people say it as much as they want to, that is on their conscience. Not mine. But used in public while working in an official capacity? That is different. The problem here is that Cynthia McKinney has not used any derogatory words when publicly addressing matters of state as well as legislation. That is very important to consider when discussing this. If she did? Well, this thread is proof of what might happen to her.

But she didn't even use such words on her website. And people are still calling for her head. Isn't that interesting?

I find it funny, however, whenever there is an explanation concerning derogatory words such as the "n-word", the first thing that comes up is "Black people say it more frequently than white people".

Now if someone said the "C-word" and the "H-word" for white people, would it ever cross your mind to ask if someone Black said White people frequently called themselves "c---rs" and "h---ys" more than Black people do?

As for African-American: all I can say is that some Blacks use it; other Blacks don't. Some people are happy just calling themselves Black. Others prefer African-American. In the end, it has to do with the individual and his/her use of the word he/she refers to him/herself the best.






[edit on 2-7-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
Again, notbuynit, I'm glad for you. I'm just saying that it isn't like all Black people throw it around willy nilly. Some do and some don't.

I'll accept that.

find it funny, however, whenever there is an explaination concerning derogatory words such as the "n-word", the first thing that comes up is "Black people say it more frequently than white people".

If you really are black, you don't get out much do ya? Then again, I don't hang around the best of places either.

Now if someone said the "C-word" and the "H-word" for white people, would it ever cross your mind to ask if someone Black said that frequently White people called themselves "c---rs" and "h---ys" more than Black people do?

Why would I ask? I know why. A certain party that once went out of its way to oppress blacks now wants their votes by making them victims instead of equals.

Side note, lets get something straight. We're grown adults here. Just say it. C word and H word is just childish and confusing. If you mean cracker and honky. I'm grown up enough to realize you're not talking about me. So lets be adults and say what we mean. I know you're not calling me a cracker. I'm a little more offended by the term greengo anyways. Sign of the times I guess.

So if lots of white people were calling each other cracker or honky, I'd still be offended and let them know and wouldn't use the term myslf if I was offended.

Fair enough. I just don't use those terms because I don't like to say it. That has nothing to do with being adult or not. It's just a sign of respect. But if you don't have any respect and dignity for another person, then it is easier to use such derogatory language and throw it around. The same could be said for not having any dignity or respect for yourself.

Some people don't care.

It is rare that people are truly considerate.

And it has nothing to do with being around the block or not. It is a matter of politeness. Some people are not polite whenever they infer anything about race.

Here too, it is very rare that you find someone that is rather open-minded and polite when discussing race-relations.

But on the whole, I prefer people who are honest and polite. But mostly honest.

notbuynit, you were honest and polite in your previous posts. You can even stomach using derogatory terms even when it has to do with a different context. I still cannot because I do care about people's feelings. I respect you for that. Not everyone is as desensitized.


Perhaps, that is the problem when discussing Mr. Palast's words.

On the point of political parties: Both parties have made their use of Blacks. For the Republicans--right now they are using Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice in their attempt to be "color blind"--especially when they are not voting on renewing the VRA. The Democrats--once as Dixiecrats--disenfranchised Blacks during the era of Jim Crow concerning Segregation.

The point is Blacks are still members of both parties. Yet both parties use vicitmization as their platform, for not only them but other people of color.

So it doesn't matter which party is better or treats a certain race with more dignity and respect.

When you are attached to a party now, it is a part of ideology, personal beliefs and world view. Ms. McKinney has hers, no doubt. And she will have her detractors. But so does Gen. Powell and Dr. Rice. They too have those who don't like them.








[edit on 3-7-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
The Tony Snow thread is especially indicative lately of my bitterness concerning talks about race-relations.
...
I asked whether anyone could find Ms. McKinney guilty of barring Whites from any social institution in her speeches, public policies and legislation. I wanted to know.

Tony Snow didn't bar any black people from any social institution in his speeches, public policies or legislation either, yet you determined he's racist. You took him out of context. His words offended you, so you branded him a racist. There is no indication that his intent was racial. AT ALL. He has no history of being racist. To defend Ms. McKinney and lambaste Tony Snow is a double standard.

I hate to think of the repercussions should anyone, black or white, utter the N word on a website of Snow's.

Ms. McKinney played the race card. In my opinion, a very racist thing to do. It says, in essence, "I am not guilty of what you charge because you're only charging me because of the color of my skin, not what I did." She has a history of racial issues.

I do not hold Ms. McKinney responsible for the words uttered by another. But if she does have any control whatsoever of what's on this website, I think letting that racial slur remain there is yet one more irresponsible decision on her part. Just like refusing to wear her pin.

She's out to prove something and the decisions she makes in that regard are less than effective and less than responsible, in my opinion. She just pisses people off and turns them against her 'cause'. One definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over while expecting different results. Her actions (and inactions) get in the way of what she says she wants. The chip on her shoulder is clear from here.

But, I don't give up. I continue the discussion no matter how many times people have told me to "grow a thick skin" and "find an instance of real racism".

I noticed.

I think that sometimes there are people who don't even "appreciate" the irony in this entire discussion no matter what side of the fence they sit on.

I think it's truly sad that you place people either on one side of the 'fence' or the other depending on YOUR perception of what they say, because many times, your perception is so colored by your past and your experiences, I believe you are judging incorrectly. And the judgments you hold are getting in the way of resolution, in my opinion. Instead, they are keeping the 'fence' firmly in place.

But the problem is that a White male said it. I would understand if people grew angry at Greg Palast for saying it.

To me, the color of the person who said it doesn't matter. I feel the same about this racial slur as I do about the COUNTLESS times I hear black people use the N word. And if you haven't heard thousands of black people using it, you haven't been listening.

But I don't understand why people supportive of "the author" ... use guilt by association to penalize Ms. McKinney regarding the words of another.

You put everyone on a side like a grade school game. They're either supportive of jsobecky or on your side. That makes me want to puke, because you are so wrong. Your assumptions are so wrong. And continuing to strike the divide only makes your position all the more clear.

You say you don't understand why people might think that a racial slur on McKinney's website might cause people to have negative judgments against her??? Are you serious??? Just imagine a racial slur on Snow's website. Just imagine someone... anyone, using a racial slur against blacks. Imagine someone referring to black people who vote for Bush as "Oreos" on Snow's website. Let's say you don't even know the color of the poster. If you tell me that you wouldn't, in some way, hold that against Snow, I don't think I'd believe you.

In fact, I don't even use the n-word and I'm Black.

Why would your skin color have anything to do with it? Unless you believe that black people have some kind of right to use the word? If that's the case, they why should anyone be upset at Palast? He's white. If blacks can use black racial slurs, the white people can too, right?

The double standard lives on...

The only reason that mckinney is getting beat up over her website is that she has shown the temerity not to take racist bs from the good ol' boys that want to keep things just the way they are, male and white. While I disagree with mckinney on many things, I do appreciate her toughness in the face of this redneck crap.

Mckinney being accused of racism by the closet bigots on ATS is laughable.
.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
Blah...Blah.....

wake up whitey your dreaming! any of you whites out there who think for one minute that the "we are all equal" ideology is shared by minorities because its the "truth" are living in la la land. Yes you can have most minorities parrot this ideology but only for the reason it leaves the people whose ancestors oppressed theirs at a disadvantage and is VERY beneficial to them. They can get jobs and social programs and money for college to improve their lives and climb to a position to oppress you and it will and is begining to happen.

I propose you take a step into the corrections system. It's what opened my eyes.
*SNIP*

Your judging sample is prisoners? Um, I bet if you surveyed whites in prisons, most of them would be criminals. Does that mean all whites are crimminals? Well, you seem to think that prison is a great way to judge a race's character.

I just went to an alcoholics anonymous meeting. All the black people there were drunks! Next week I'm going to a gambler's anonymous meeting, I'll let you know if blacks have a problem gambling too.

Originally posted by df1
Mckinney being accused of racism by the closet bigots on ATS is laughable.

Please refrain name-calling on ATS.
This conversation was going along in a mature manner. It will not be allowed to derail because of comments such as this.

ANY further remarks such as this will result in warns, regardless of who makes the remark.

[edit on 3-7-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

ceci2006;

I've been reading this thread, and I have to hand it to you.

You are the master of thread deflection. It should be stated as "Thread Deflector" right under your avatar name, just as others have Writer, Scholar, etc.

You started deflecting the instant you showed up on this thread. And even though you were immediately called on it, and even sort of 'warned' about it by a mod-type, it wasn't long before you had everyone sucked into your deflection - even the mods that were posting on this thread. How do you do it? By posting such a volume of off-topic information (while swearing that it isn't) that people lose track of what the original topic was, and then you've succeeded.

Question. You do this so smoothly on thread after thread. Did you go to a class to learn your tactics (where?), or did you simply hone these skills on your own?

Oh, one other question. Have you ever just said "OK", and let someone else have the last word?

I would have loved to hear more people's opinions and more debate on the original topic, but that just doesn't seem possible now.


[edit on 7/3/2006 by centurion1211]

Benevolent Heretic,


Surely, I can tell your bitterness over this entire thing. It comes out in your words as you describe what happened with Tony Snow. And here too, you seem to forget that every race has their limits with the words they are willing to tolerate.

And sadly, in your push for others to accept "Anti-White" racism (but you're not the only one), you are readily out to prove anyone a racist just by your low bar of determination of racist intent.

I tend to think that racism and its actions are more complex than simply branding someone a racist. You don't take the complexities of racism. You just call anyone you please a racist. That's the problem.

I truly don't like "tar baby" and asked people to explore the racist history of the word. And I said that Tony Snow (growing up in Kentucky, Ohio and Virginia) would not be immune from learning racial slurs. As "well-read" about "American Folklore" as he might be, I'm sure he knows about a plethora of racial slurs. And I bet he knows how to use them in different contexts,as well.

And there, I posted proof talking about the different contexts of "tar baby", "white-skin privilege" and how "tar baby" is played out in Jim Crow's America as well as popular culture. This was for educative and informational reasons.

What have you done on this thread to educate us about the use of "c---ercrat and Oreo?"

What has the author done pro-actively to teach us about the history of this word and its use?

And who has explored the etymology of the word and its use in slang--by either race?

There are so many ways to take this issue other than simply "disagreeing or agreeing" with the author. But that takes vision. Some have it. Others don't.

And I accept the fact that some people might think "cr--r-crat" and "Oreo" would be offensive to some Whites. But you still need to consider that Greg Palast said it. The problem is maybe that one needs to explore that Greg Palast's use might be indicative of White culture's uneasiness in dealing with their own insertion into honestly talking about race. You admitted as much when talking about your own uneasiness in regards to "White Guilt".

You need to learn that not everyone is going to see race the way you do. It doesn't mean that they are racist. It doesn't mean that they hold double standards of others. And it doesn't mean that they are "high on their petard", either. We need to engage in these conversations honestly without judgement. We may have biases (Like I still think Tony Snow is racist, but that is my opinion as you think Ms. McKinney is racist--that is your opinion), but we need to work it out intead of wanting to walk away.

You give up too easily. And that makes me sad. Be bitter against me. Bring up all my faults.

But I'm not bitter at you. And I forgive you. In fact, I wish we could talk about other things and not be angry at each other.

But, it really has to do with "life experiences" and "race". Sometimes, you might not like the story of the other's experience, but you listen and ask questions. You don't condemn. You have to continue that open-mindedness in the exploration of the issue.

And especially in the use of words. When I told subz that I didn't use the "n-word", I don't. Nothing more, nothing less. There isn't anything ideological or racial about that. I don't use it because I try my best to respect others as well as myself. What is wrong with that? It has nothing to do with who "owns the word". But I can see your side of the issue. And I respect that.

I have my faults. But I am still trying every chance I get. Will everyone believe me? No. But I still am going to try and learn from others about race-relations no matter how I stand on the issue. It's not as easy as casting jugdment on others--which you always accuse me of doing.

But I have to ask, are you not guilty of too easily doing the same? Shouldn't you try to be more understanding of others as well--especially when seeing Ms. McKinney's side of this issue?






[edit on 3-7-2006 by ceci2006]

Centurion 1211,

I truly don't care about what you think about my tactics. I am going to say what I am going to say whether you disapprove or not.

Instead of attacking me, why don't you try and address the questions brought up by the author? That would prove to me as well as the others that you were staying on topic instead of accusing me.

But, wag your finger if you must. I stand corrected.

Now what about Greg Palast's words do you find offensive?

Sorry, but except for this response, I refuse to get sucked in by answering your question. To do so would only result in my being badgered "un-ceci-ingly" until like many others, I just turn and walk away (sound familiar?). Before you started posting your now classic "never mind her, what about these guys" deflection, there were some interesting things said, and I was considering adding my comments.

And the last word to me is ...


[edit on 7/3/2006 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by centurion1211
Sorry, but except for this response, I refuse to get sucked in by answering your question. To do so would only result in my being badgered "un-ceci-ingly" until like many others, I just turn and walk away (sound familiar?). Before you started posting your now classic "never mind her, what about these guys" deflection, there were some interesting things said, and I was considering adding my comments.

Your turn ...

Whatever you say.

Originally posted by ceci2006
Fair enough. I just don't use those terms because I don't like to say it. That has nothing to do with being adult or not. It's just a sign of respect. But if you don't have any respect and dignity for another person, then it is easier to use such derogatory language and throw it around. The same could be said for not having any dignity or respect for yourself.

I speak openly out of respect for people. I'm trusting you are intelligent and mature enough to realize we are discussing a topic and I'm not using the word just to offend you. Trust me, if I wanted to offend you, I could go right for the heart but I save that stuff for the idiots that deserve it. For instance around young kids, I wouldn't use the word under any circumstances. They're inmature and would key in solely on the word and nothing else.

And it has nothing to do with being around the block or not. It is a matter of politeness. Some people are not polite whenever they infer anything about race.

Yea, we've both seen that post and as long as we continue to ignore it for the nazi jibberish that it is, it will be burried.

But on the whole, I prefer people who are honest and polite. But mostly honest.

Same here.

notbuynit, you were honest and polite in your previous posts.

Yea, well don't let it get around. I've got a rep to uphold.

Perhaps, that is the problem when discussing Mr. Palast's words.

Racism isn't an illness that only inflicts white people and I know. Ask me why I will not be called a greengo.

On the point of political parties: Both parties have made their use of Blacks. For the Republicans--right now they are using Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice in their attempt to be "color blind"

Ummm, Gen. Powell is a proven leader who could've ran for prez and possibly won and Condi might be the smartest person on the planet. How many languages alone is she fluent in again? I hear stories from Republicans and Dems that when she enters a conversation, people shut up and listen. She's a very intelligent and strong black woman. Hey, wait a minute. Did I just say that? I sound like a freaking fem Nazi. Gotta stop drinking when I'm posting. Oh well, it's true so I'm not editing it. I'll just have to do something manly later like kill a grizzly with a toothpick or something. Humour aside, I do kind of take offense to your assertion that she is where she is solely based on her race and I believe she would also.

When you are attached to a party now, it is a part of ideology, personal beliefs and world view. Ms. McKinney has hers, no doubt. And she will have her detractors.

Yea, the only difference being, if I struck a cop, I'd still be in jail. Which is unfortunately true, I know well all to well.

I heard this on Fox News .

Originally quoted by notbuynit
Ummm, Gen. Powell is a proven leader who could've ran for prez and possibly won and Condi might be the smartest person on the planet. How many languages alone is she fluent in again? I hear stories from Republicans and Dems that when she enters a conversation, people shut up and listen. She's a very intelligent and strong black woman. Hey, wait a minute. Did I just say that? I sound like a freaking fem Nazi. Gotta stop drinking when I'm posting. Oh well, it's true so I'm not editing it. I'll just have to do something manly later like kill a grizzly with a toothpick or something. Humour aside, I do kind of take offense to your assertion that she is where she is solely based on her race and I believe she would also.

Fair enough. But don't you think that Ms. McKinney worked her way up from the bottom as well? I think that the Georgia Congresswoman is also a strong, intelligent Black woman. She's not perfect, of course. But neither is Dr. Rice or Gen. Powell. They too have their faults.

Dr. Rice is a very driven, erudite, and strong Black woman. I agree with you about that. But I have to ask whether in this pursuit of being "accepted" by the Republicans, what is her position regarding the use of "derogatory words" by other folk? And has she publicly condemned Ms. McKinney for her actions? How does she react to the derogatory words uttered by not only her own race, but the other races? What has she to say about Ms. McKinney's website, if any?

I would be curious to know why her opinion (by virtue of being part of the Republican party) is taken with more weight than any other Black dignitary? Why does she get this shield of protection while Ms. McKinney gets attacked? And what if Dr. Rice says something derogatory about Whites? Would you still hold her in the same esteem? Or would you attack her in the same way as Ms. McKinney?

But is Ms. McKinney getting this criticism solely because she belongs to a ideology different from Dr. Rice and Gen. Powell?




[edit on 3-7-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
you are readily out to prove anyone a racist just by your low bar of determination of racist intent.

I am not out to prove anyone a racist. You are mistaken. I am just sharing MY definition of racism. We are all entitled to our opinion. And yes, I fully cop to setting the bar very low when it comes to racism as well as other forms of discrimination from one human being to another. I have very little tolerance for intolerance.

Setting the bar higher at some 'convenient' level, to me, is just an excuse to slide right in under the bar, therefore discount one's own racial issues and I won't do that. I have acknowledged my own racism in the fact that I treat black people differently (nicer) here in my small town to make them feel more welcome and comfortable. I know to you, that's not racism, but to me, treating a person differently because of their race is racism. It's a matter of semantics.

You don't take the complexities of racism. You just call anyone you please a racist. That's the problem.

Your accusations are incorrect. But as I have acknowledged, I set the bar very low.

And I said that Tony Snow (growing up in Kentucky, Ohio and Virginia) would not be immune from learning racial slurs.

I grew up in Ohio and heard many racial slurs, some even from my family, and I NEVER heard Tar Baby. It's ok that you refuse to give Snow the benefit of the doubt, but I do.

What have you done on this thread to educate us about the use of "c---ercrat and Oreo?"

What could I possibly teach anyone? I do not assume to teach anyone anything. The only place I hear these words these days is on this board. I don't use them. My friends and I don't sit around ragging on black or white people. Race is minimal in my life.

And who has explored the etymology of the word and its use in slang--by either race?

Who cares? I'm not going to explore ignorance. I'm not going to feed racism. I have no interest in drawing the line deeper in the sand. The thought is ludicrous to me!

You need to learn that not everyone is going to see race the way you do. It doesn't mean that they are racist.

Record that and play it back. About 1000 times.

You give up too easily.

What indication do you have that I've 'given up'? My continued postings to you? What have I given up, exactly? Changing your mind? I gave up on that a long time ago. Think whatever you want. I have no need for you to see things my way.

Shouldn't you try to be more understanding of others as well--especially when seeing Ms. McKinney's side of this issue?

I think I do understand others. I just disagree. If you want me to agree with your judgments of Snow and McKinney, I'm sorry. I don't. But you're certainly free to have your judgments as I am to have mine.

Simply put, I believe McKinney played the race card (and has many times) and I disrespect that. I believe Snow didn't mean anything racial by his use of the term and I have no indication that he is racist. That's what I think. I understand what others think but I disagree. Simple.

See, this is a great example of what I said earlier about deflection.

Now a person that commits the criminal offense of assault and battery, and then tries to get out of it by playing the race card is being raised to the same level as Powell and Rice - who have never done either thing. McKinney hardly belongs in the same discussion with Rice and Powell.

It's not about political ideology, it's about character.

Fair enough. But don't you think that Ms. McKinney worked her way up from the bottom as well? I think that the Georgia Congresswoman is also a strong, intelligent Black woman.

I don't. She messed up and tried to make race an issue when it was so obviuosly not. I almost believe it was preplanned. She isn't all that smart. I also don't see Dr. Rice attacking an officer of the law over something stupid. Do you???? Seriously, do you think Dr. Rice would do that???? I think she's smarter than that. Ms. McKinney and I obviously aren't. I was atleast impared tho, not that that did any good, kinda made it worse. I believe the two took different paths to power. We'll leave it at that. I'm not a hater, I'm just real.

But is Ms. McKinney getting this criticism solely because she belongs to a ideology different from Dr. Rice and Gen. Powell?

Now if I was a young black man or white or hispanic or whatever in jail right now for that very same thing, what do you think? They should and she should be in jail.