Israeli Air Strike and Troop Movement In Gaza Right Now!!!

Originally posted by Nygdan
Consider though, what happens if that is going on and at the same time US forces on the vague Iraq-Syria border engage in fire with foreign insurgents.

I realize that it's horrible PR, but considering that they already want to kill us so that we may burn in hell for all eternity... I mean I'd like for them to have a better outlook on us, but I really can't imagine worrying about worsening our image until we've got a government that expresses some kind of commitment to building a positive image to begin with.
In 2008 maybe I can be against the idea of appearing to be working with Israel. That would be neat.

At the same time, there is a question of it turning into a 'war' between Israel and the Occupied Territories, which, is kind of an odd thing to say, since they're, well, occupied.

I'd hush you in fear that Israel might hear and remember, but all indications are that somebody already reminded them.

"You know, I think we are techincally at war aren't we?.. Well, better get back at it."

The iranian leadership seems to be rather apocalyptic in its thinking, and might not care if they don't stand a chance.

As I've said before, despite their apocalyptic notions, they are waiting for their nukes. If they were apocalyptic against ALL logic, they wouldn't be building nukes. They'd just send their entire population over the Iraqi border armed with sticks and stones chanting "Allah will give us victory anyway".

Assad, however, is more unusual.

I suspect he'll be more inclined to act in the name of Syria, Arabs, or, of course, Assad rather than Islam. Silly Ba'athists you know... always looking out for number 1 without too much concern for whether or not number 2 hits the fan (operative words "or not" in this case).

This is exactly how Carter should have handled the Iranian Hostage Crisis.

"48 hours or you no longer have a country."

I bet we wouldn't be in this mess we're in today.

As bad as this whole situation is for the world and as horrible as war is, I can't help but smirk a little bit when I think of this Palestinian group getting an "Oh crap, we bit off more than we can chew" look on their face.

is this what the us need to go in to iran and start armedgedon, think about what if the hamses leader runs over the boder in to iran as thay comlpete urainum process or steps it up herm

[edit on 29-6-2006 by leejones]

Originally posted by ThePieMaN

Originally posted by curiousity
I hope I'm wrong, pieman, but sometimes your posts resemble your avatar more than is reasonable!

Are the Israelis loading the launchers?

Being that its compulsory to join the army in Israel..maybe so. Your little jab at a picture doesn't affect me in the least. You are entitled to your opinion and I know in as much as you'd like it to be one uniform opinion in the United States, so far you and your kind have yet to succeed. Keep trying though.

So, you think the Israelis are going to Palestine and shoot back at Israel? OK, then!
As for me and my kind, pieman, I could care less about your opinions, whether you have any or not is immaterial. I just wish you'd listen to your own posts sometimes.

Originally posted by leejones
is this what the us need to go in to iran and start armedgedon, think about what if the hamses leader runs over the boder in to iran as thay comlpete urainum process or steps it up herm

[edit on 29-6-2006 by leejones]

Wasn't aware Iran shared a border with Israel/Palestine.....

I have to agree with "the Vagabond".

The Palestinians are in a position at this point in history of receiving ALL the sympathy and support from the international community they could stomach.

If they were to completely stop all aggression against Israel, and Israel continued their aggressions against the Palestinians, it would take only a bare minimum of whining to get the international community on board.

To me, it looks like the Palestinians would rather continue their futile war against Israel indefinitely, rather than move towards the possibility of a peacefull future.

Or maybe they would prefer to go back to the way things were before Israel showed up, subjects under the Ottoman Empire.

I think if I had their choices, I'd rather move towards a self-governing state living peacefully along side my neighbors.


...fixed spelling error...
...fixed grammatical error...


[edit on 29-6-2006 by hlesterjerome]

[edit on 29-6-2006 by hlesterjerome]

Thepieman
If it wasn't for the benevolence and tax dollars from the citizens of the USA as well as the jews of Europe, Israel would be nothing. Don't be so cocky as to think that Israel is so self sufficient that it achieved everything it did without the help of others.

Agreed, but, as it is, IF the US ignored israel, they'd still be masters of the region. The US propped them up, but now, they seem to be relatively independant. After 10 years or so of not having any outside support, things might be different.

which of course has been destroyed due to the fact that a huge wall just happened to land in between the groves and the farmers

Indeed, war is bad for business.

Israel is working on taking that away from them too though.

The point of the security wall is hardly to screw with arab olive groves. If the palestinains want to be able to engage in business, then they'll have to settle their dispute with their occupier.

I am fully confident that once the World helps to free these people from the oppression of the israeli government and businesses that they will become self-sufficient even faster then their neighbors

Its possible, though unlikely, on two counts. One is, the world simply doesn't care, no matter what the situation, and won't get involved. Look at Darfur. Clearly, those people are worse off the the palestinians. I see no UN Army or Global Peace Alliance protecting the camps. And thats against puny militias of horse-riding cavalry, not yehudi tanks, gets, troops. THe other problem, the palestinians have no civil society, they've become a nation of militias. When the Hamas 'party' and the Fatah "party" had a disagreement over a simple referendum, it wasn't to Roberts Rules of Order that they looked, they started killing each other. Wipe out the yehuhdis, give it all to the palestinians, and it will be a failed state, like say, somalia, or afghanistan prior to the taliban. Probably anyway.

can you say the same thing for palestinians?

It seems that the visiting arabs to palestine are helping, just not in economics, but rather terror.

the Palestinians outside of the country allowed to go back INTO palestine and help them to rebuild and grow things? I don't think so.

Nor should they be. The yehudis let Arafat back in, and look at what happened. Really, rather than build a wall between israel and their occupied territories, they should build a wall around the whole of the occupied territory.

golemina
The point I was making is that 'Palestine' is basically a beggar state and it's not even able to feed it's own population.

Palestine is not a state, its an occupied territory, of course it can't accomplish anything, its under a strict and tough occupation. Comparing Israel to the occupied territories doesn't tell us much. A more valid comparision is Israel to egypt, or Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, etc.

stumason
Made them alot of money until the Israelis pulled up all the groves and orchards.

It was the palestinians that destroyed the infrastructure of the gaza strip when the israelis moved out.

Spets
Please realize the fact that Russia is no longer a broken world power it was after the colapse of the soviet union.

Perhaps but either way the Russians aren't in any position to fight israel with syria as a proxy.

Russia's armory stock has built up to such hights during the cold war they literaly have divisions to spare.

And how would tehy get the equipment to syria? Through georgia? And, clearly, the international community would have a problem with russia dumping weapons into Syria. Besides, by the time the ships and transports were loaded, they're be friday night sabbath service the Syria Parliament.

And now a little more directly relevant to this operation and its rammifications:

Originally posted by hlesterjerome
it would take only a bare minimum of whining to get the international community on board.

No one is going to do anything to help the palestinians. Even their arab neighbhors won't do anything other than send them guns. The UN or international community isn't going to, say, put an embargo on Israel if they continue to occupy the palestinian territories even if the palestinians aren't lobbing bombs at them.

I think if I had their choices, I'd rather move towards a self-governing state living peacefully along side my neighbors.

OR, actually fight the yehudis, en mass. Seems like most palestinians are content with damning the jews, and leaving it up to small radical militias to take potshots.

Originally posted by curiousity
Being that its compulsory to join the army in Israel..maybe so. Your little jab at a picture doesn't affect me in the least. You are entitled to your opinion and I know in as much as you'd like it to be one uniform opinion in the United States, so far you and your kind have yet to succeed. Keep trying though.

Normally I don't reply or feed trolls but in your case I will because you seem a bit confused or possibly dazed from some type of head trauma.
I never said that Israelis are going into palestine to shoot back into Israel. Thats something you manufactured in your mind.
In reply to a message that someone was saying SARCASTICALLY that the population of GAZA was peaceful, meaning that EVERYONE IN GAZA is guilty, I had asked him if the pregnant woman and the 2 children killed in the recent days following the beach attack were also firing these launchers, AS IN: were they guilty also? Whereupon you interjected with your trolling:

I hope I'm wrong, pieman, but sometimes your posts resemble your avatar more than is reasonable!

Are the Israelis loading the launchers?

Since we were talking about rocket attacks into the Israeli side I had assumed you were referring to the israelis being attacked , and that you were asking me if those Israelis were loading launchers on their side of the border. Which of course you came back with another doozie trying to put words in my mouth:

So, you think the Israelis are going to Palestine and shoot back at Israel? OK, then!
As for me and my kind, pieman, I could care less about your opinions, whether you have any or not is immaterial. I just wish you'd listen to your own posts sometimes.

Just remember..Im not the one who quoted or critisized you or made a sorry attempt at making fun of me first so don't try to twist it as though I offered my opinion to you in any way shape or form. I replied to your response to me. Now can you find another bridge to play under?

Can you explain,how Israel becom an legitim country??I have seen political maps in 1935 year and you now there was no Israel country only one big palestine under British protectorat.Suddenly in 1960 years political maps there is country whit name Israel!!?If im wrong please correct me but from my point of wiew Jewish has simply taken the land from Palestin,and claimit as their own!!!
Who is real evil???

[edit on 30-6-2006 by swesais]

Originally posted by swesais
Can you explain,how Israel becom an legitim country??

OK, I'll bite on this one, even though I know exactly where it's going.

Rome gets out the Jews, Rome dies, the Ottomans inherit it with a few but not many jews left. Islam rises, more Jews leave.

Ottoman Empire backs the wrong horse in WWI, Britain and France pretty much divie up the mid east as we know it, with Britain controlling "Palestine".

Please note the quotation marks- there was never a "Palestinian nation". Palestine was a latinization of Phillistine- they had a few cities on the coast, never composing a nation state, and they were gone even before the Jews. Rome named the whole area after them just to snub the Jews after the revolt.

Balfour promised the Jews a homeland after WWI but Britain didn't live up to the promise. During this time there were a few offers thrown around on this matter- the Zionist Congress turned down an offer to establish a Jewish state around where Uganda now is- probably a mistake in retrospect, but it's a little late now.

Jews, having a certain degree of influence in the media and certain banks, played ball with Britain in WWII and afterwards started moving into the British mandate of "Palestine". Fighting between Arab and Zionist militias began, and at the same time both were fighting the British, who took their sweet time leaving the mandate.

1947, the British draw up lines of division that more or less follow ethnic lines and make for a very unnatural border- Arabs get more than half of the land, including a much larger version of the West Bank than currently exists.

Israel declares independence the moment Britain's control over the madate expires- shelling could be heard in the background as the declaration was being made, because all of Israel's neighbors declared war on them immediately.

Jordan had originally agreed to let Israel alone, but had clued Israel in on covert plans to conquer Palestine. At the last minute, Jordan changed its mind and decided it wanted the entire mandate.

With a little US intervention, the war went Israel's way. Israel was considerably larger than the original plan allowed for, and Jordan had conquered what remained of the Palestinian area in the West Bank (the present-day size and definition).

The legality of this is pretty questionable. If I were arbitrating the conflict, I'd probably have to insist that the 1947 borders be restored, at least where the West Bank is concerned, but in all fairness, Israel approved those borders and the Arabs wouldn't hear of it.

What remains of the West Bank didn't come into Israel possession until the Six Days War- Israel siezed it because before that War, Jordan was preparing to allow Kuwaiti and possibly Iraqi troops use it as a staging area for an upcoming Arab offensive, therefore Israel didn't think they could afford to have Arab land on their side of the Jordan river anymore.

This is without a doubt occupied territory and must at some point be returned by the peace process, if not the 1947 borders.

Anyway, Israel became a legitimate nation in 1947, and from 1948-1967 expanded semi-legitimately in wars which could at least be argued to have been defensive in nature.


Morally speaking, it's a pretty murky issue.

Israel is the only independent nation to have a capital in that region in thousands of years- everything else that's ever been there was a possession of a foreign conquerer.

Israel lost it the same way the "Palestinians" did pretty much, they just did so farther back in history (the same way being that they were driven out by force).
Israel got it back pretty much the same way the "Palestinians" did (that is to say, an occupying power gave it to them).

Palestinians had their homes there: this is a common argument and not without merit. This might be decisive if it were still 1947. Unfortunately, almost 60 years later, the exact same thing can now be said for the Israelis.


At this point, these people are going to have to learn to live with one another. They've each got certain aspects of legitimacy shaded by certain misdeeds. They both live there. They both have been wronged.

HOPEFULLY they also both would like to send their kids to school and maybe even make some money and have a decent standard of living. If that's the case, as I've been saying, somebody is going to have to decide to be the bigger man on a grass roots level and start holding the political bosses accountable for achieving peace. As a practical matter, it would probably behoove the Palestinians to be the ones to do it, because 1. they've got the most to lose if they don't. 2. they've got the most to gain if they do. It'd be just as well for the Israelis to make the first move, but as a practical matter that's unlikely since the only way that can work is if the Palestinian people reciprocate (as opposed to the Palestinian government, which is notoriously duplicitous and has ulterior political motives).

I hope that at least somewhat answers your question.

[edit on 30-6-2006 by The Vagabond]

Originally posted by swesais
Can you explain,how Israel becom an legitim country??I have seen political maps in 1935 year and you now there was no Israel country only one big palestine under British protectorat.

There ya go. It was mandated to Britain by the international community. Britain decided to make part of it into a state for the jews.

Suddenly in 1960 years political maps there is country whit name Israe

you might want to check your maps again.

Jewish has simply taken the land from Palestin,and claimit as their own!!!

There were jews and arabs living in the british mandate of palestine. THe brits decided to split it up into two states, one arab, another yehudi.

Who is real evil???

The people targeting civilians? The people brainwashing children into wearing suicide belts?

I'm still shocked at the lack of news coming out of there. It's like a media blackout or something. I wonder how much control Israel has over major news networks!

Originally posted by swesais
Can you explain,how Israel becom an legitim country??

If you are interested , here is a long but good read. Its from the United Nations site. Explains the situation.


Source


While some will try to say the Palestinians were not there. The Palestinians have been there for the past 2000 years. They are still till this day referred to as "Il Filistini". That site has many personal memo's as well as secret memo's concerning what took place.

Pie

Serious stuff...

Israel warns: free soldier or PM dies

Israel warns: free soldier or PM dies
Middle East correspondent Martin Chulov
July 01, 2006

ISRAEL last night threatened to assassinate Palestinian Prime Minister Ismael Haniyeh if Hamas militants did not release a captured Israeli soldier unharmed.

The unprecedented warning was delivered to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas in a letter as Israel debated a deal offered by Hamas to free Corporal Gilad Shalit.

It came as Israeli military officials readied a second invasion force for a huge offensive into Gaza.

Hamas's Gaza-based political leaders, including Mr Haniyeh, had already gone into hiding.

The assassination warning really strikes me funny... or deadly serious actually. Correct me if my kneejerk reaction is wrong, but does anybody else smell a naked rat here?

Israel tells a FATAH president that if he can't deliver, the HAMAS PM is going to die.

Beggin' your pardon, but wouldn't the assassination of Haniya now create an anti-fatah backlash?

Now I realize that as Head of State Abbas was the man to deliver the ultimatum to, and that as Head of Government Haniya is the logical person to direct this illogical threat against. That being said, did nobody pick up on the potential political ramifications of making a Fatah politician the bearer of bad news for a Hamas official? Afterall, won't Abbas be blamed for the failure of diplomacy if Haniya goes down?

Now I also realize that Abbas appointed Haniya, but what choice did he have with a Hamas majority in parliament? So unless I'm missing something (and I could be) I don't see that as much of a counter argument.


I dont know the internal politics of Palestine that well, so I'd like other opinions, particularly if people more familiar with the region happen to be around.

Is Israel trying to start a fight between Hamas and Fatah (one that Fatah would presumably be on the wrong end of)? That's what it looks like to me, but that really doesn't make much sense if Israel wants the peace process to move at all. If I were right, in my mind it would seem to indicate that Israel likes the way Hamas' history alienates them from the world and hopes to use this situation to promote Hamas power and thereby set the Palestinian Authority up to die and disappear.

Thoughts?

Originally posted by The Vagabond


Is Israel trying to start a fight between Hamas and Fatah (one that Fatah would presumably be on the wrong end of)? That's what it looks like to me, but that really doesn't make much sense if Israel wants the peace process to move at all. If I were right, in my mind it would seem to indicate that Israel likes the way Hamas' history alienates them from the world and hopes to use this situation to promote Hamas power and thereby set the Palestinian Authority up to die and disappear.

Thoughts?

I have asserted that they are trying to play one against each other for a while now.Their cutting off Hamas funds was also an attempt to get the people to turn the Palestinians against Hamas as well, but I think that it all backfired in their faces. They didn't want the PLO and so they uncovered that the PLO was corrupt, thats when they voted in Hamas and Israel definitely didn't like that. They are a Lose-Lose situation over there 100% with Israeli policy dictating the situation.



Pie

Guess who has to pay for the Power Station Israel blew up in Gaza! This keeps getting better and better.

U.S. to pay $48 million to cover damages to Gaza power station

By Akiva Eldar, Haaretz Correspondent and Haaretz Service

United States officials said they expect that U.S. funds will be used to pay for the damages caused by an Israel Air Force strike Tuesday on a Palestinian power station in the Gaza Strip. The power station was insured by a U.S. government agency, according to The Boston Globe.

The Foreign and Defense Ministry departments that oversee foreign relations were unaware of the decision to target civilian facilities in the Strip, or the decision to attack the power station. Because of this, officials did not know that the station was insured by a U.S. government agency. Israel did not inform the U.S. prior to attacking the power station.

Source

Don't be shocked if we welch on the payments under the rationale that Hamas will divert funds to terrorism.
Or we could cut costs by arresting Olmert and making him run on a treadmill to generate power. Wouldn't put out as much as the one they destroyed, but I think the Palestinians would accept it just on principle, and it'd probably make sure Israel checked out the financial angles next time they bombed something.

We Americans appreciate a good bombing as much as the next guy, you've gotta watch out for collateral damage. Accidentally hitting a Chinese embassy... oops, it happens. Hitting a power plant ensured by one of your best friends... that's just plain unacceptable.

Now moving in to Lebanon! Could this be the start of another land grab?

Originally posted by MajesticJax
Now moving in to Lebanon! Could this be the start of another land grab?

I see this as a fight for their survival. Every few years since 1948 other countries have attacked them and tried to destroy them. And even before that there were people desiring their annihilation.

If they let a soldier here and 2 soldiers there be taken hostage, it will turn into 10 soldiers here 100 civilians there to be the next level of hostage taking.

Israel wnats peace their neighbors want there TOTAL ANNILHILATION.

The truth is lasting peace will not come until Jesus Christ returns. So look at what is happening now over there and realize this is a serious situation and is an attention getter for the whole world.