President says New York Times is disgaceful

Warrantless surveillance of American citizens is illegal.

No, it's not, especially in a time of war.

Originally posted by zappafan1

Warrantless surveillance of American citizens is illegal.

No, it's not, especially in a time of war.

(a) Legally, the "war" was never declared (b) according to perpetrators of WOT, it has no end. Therefore, according to your logic, we might as well kiss our Constitution goodbye. I'm sure you don't care, though.

"..... how badly this White House has bungled their "war on Terror"

REPLY: You really need to do some research.

".... how badly the Constitution has been abused by the President and his staff."

REPLY: Were you asleep during the eight years of the previous admin., the highest elected government spy.... for the Chinese?

So, all a president has to do is protect an old piece of parchment? Not the country or it's citizens?

To get back on topic, actually the New York Times would be the best dupes to advertise this program for us, being the terrorist apologists they are. ...... say we have it narrowed down to a few hundred numbers; so once this hits the press, all we have to do is see who stops using the numbers. If true, a damn good plan.

Originally posted by Aelita

Originally posted by zappafan1

Warrantless surveillance of American citizens is illegal.

No, it's not, especially in a time of war.

(a) Legally, the "war" was never declared (b) according to perpetrators of WOT, it has no end. Therefore, according to your logic, we might as well kiss our Constitution goodbye. I'm sure you don't care, though.

REPLY: Please inform me of a Constitutional Right you have lost.

As mentioned earlier, the previous war in Iraq stopped as a "cease fire', to (mistakenly) go along with the UN. There was no declared end to the first part of the conflict, so actually this is the continuation of said war.

Originally posted by zappafan1

No, it's not, especially in a time of war.

Are we at a time of war? There has been no legal declaration of war. "Legally" we are not at war with anyone.

Originally posted by zappafan1

REPLY: Damn!!! Don't you do any research. The Plame thing was crap-ola.... a red herring. Why have no charges been filed? because no "outing" was commited.

1- Russia outed her in the late 1990's, which is why she had a desk job, and no longer covert.

2- Her husband introduced her at a few parties as his "CIA wife".

3- She outed herself in 1999 by voting for Algore with her real name, and giving her place of employment in a CIA front company.

The term "neocon" is as valid as "hispanic" people.

Let me guess, got all of this from The Weekly Standard and from Faux News, right? What a load of garbage.

Yeah, it's only a red herring to to the neo-cons. To everyone else its a serious matter. And why has there been no charges laid? Because a terrible case of amnesia is working its way through the White House. It's amazing how little you have to remember when you have all three houses of government in your back pocket.

"So, all a president has to do is protect an old piece of parchment? Not the country or it's citizens? "



This statement depicts the why and how this Administration is able to get away with corruption and illegalities. It is a sad state of the Nation when the Citizen has no understanding of the founding of this Nation.

Without the founding principles, there is no Country, and you are not a Citizen. You are only paying the bill for the tyrant you support.

Ignorance has replaced thoughtfullness, reaction has replaced deliberation, and when pointed out has no understanding of their own founding principles.
Pitifull.

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
The NYT is a disgrace.. it is a shill for communists if you ask me. But their political views are not in themselves a crime..

what is a crime is lying, exaggerating, taking stories out of context, launching attack campaigns against political leaders for purely selfish reasons...

That makes Fox News the worst criminals of them all.

The president seems to say alot of dumb #!

seriously though how can you let such a dough brain run your country?

Consider the historical facts that New York Times did tons of favor for the Franklin D. Roosevelt administration during World War II by not releasing or exposing US government projects and activities against the Nazis and the Imperialist Japan during wartime.

Originally posted by ShakyaHeir

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
The NYT is a disgrace.. it is a shill for communists if you ask me. But their political views are not in themselves a crime..

what is a crime is lying, exaggerating, taking stories out of context, launching attack campaigns against political leaders for purely selfish reasons...

That makes Fox News the worst criminals of them all.

Prove it. Back it up.

*waits for the reincarnation of senator mccarthy to punish those commies*

Hey Zappafan warrentless monitoring of citizens during a time of war is illegal if it is done so to keep the war from ending and to keep the president or his friends in position. How else can they best monitor voters and how else will they monitor the poor and the middle class if not through the IRS and wiretapping anybody that might pose a threat to a wealthy elite monopoly, not to mention all the business dealings and corporate espionage that is so faithfully enhanced by a convienient war in Iraq and the terror and the old original evil drugs. Isn't it a bit strange how since Reagan came into office we have had nothing but a steady decline of rights to the point that we give up total privacy for total war, not to mention labor rights and jobs with health care. In some way I smell a rat here in these laws, jobs gone to Mexico and China, thanks to Nafta and now the Cafta, but nobody seems to mention Iraqta. Yeah the big superbillion trade deal with the middle east that has done nothing but sink job stability here and taken our slice of America instead to places far and wide. People never saw the class war coming, and now they are in it's midst and they are more worried about protecting the people that are destroying the hopes of kids and dreams of families.

The truth is that we are under attack no different than the attacks on 911. It is through intimidation, threats, laws being used not to protect but to destroy the middle class and the poor. I'm just flat out not going to put up with legal jargon that is being used to disguise the intention of a all seeing eye monitoring our every action. If we can't get Enron to obey the law, why would anyone else with access to financial transactions of businesses obey any laws either? This is a corporate pirate that is astonished the NYT exposed them for what they are. It's like Enron getting caught and saying they did nothing wrong. Where did the trillions for the DOD go mr commander? Where is it? It makes Enron look like a high school prank. He just is mad that he's been caught , keep an eye out for more than this to start flooding out over the next few months , there is too much people are aware of that the NYT and there like are usually putting on page 50, look for a major shift in the media this year.

Originally posted by zappafan1
REPLY: Please inform me of a Constitutional Right you have lost.

Amendment I - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The way the Bush administration has handled the press has been embarassing. Playing favorites with the media, plantng propaganda stories in the press, planting reporters in the press corps, completely ignoring long standing and respected journalists, and threatening to revoke press credentials? Seems like several offenses directly aimed at the first ammendment rights of the citizens.

Amendment IV - Search and Seizure

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

The Patriot Act completed circumvents the forth ammendment. All the government needs is to mutter the word "suspicion" and its a free for all. The Patriot Act is the most draconian of laws ever passed in this country and guarantees you no rights if you are on the wrong side of the argument.

Amendment V - Trial and Punishment, Compensation for Takings

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

The Patriot Act also nullifies this ammendment. The minute you are under suspicion, and you are arrested, your property is siezed and becomes state property. If the government says you did something, and can link any possession to the charge, that property is gone. It will be sold at auction long before you have a chance to clear your name.

Amendment VI - Right to Speedy Trial, Confrontation of Witnesses

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

Speedy trial? Confrontation of witnesses? Not after 9/11. If you are suspected of wrong doing you are going to be "detained" and "disappear" for a while. No trial. No witnesses. If you can prove yourself innocent, you'll surface months after the fact.

Have these happened to me directly? Nope, but they have happened to Americans since 9/11, and when it happens to one citizen it opens the door to happening to any citizen. There is no excuse for the executive to ignore the documents considered the foundation of this country and its government. When transgressions take place against the constructs of the constitution we all lose, as our civil liberties, as guaranteed through the constitution and the bill of rights, become nothing more than speed bumps in the government's race to assume total control over our lives.

^ if you want to live in communist north korea where your not even allowed to see the outside world because the government announces that NK is the only utopia, its fine by me

Swatman, why to you support that horrible "jarhead" movie. It just trashes the 1991 Gulf War...

-- Boat


[edit on 28-6-2006 by Boatphone]

i dont support it.. i just really liked the poster.. im a black hawk down type of guy

and i dont think it trashes the gulf war, it is just a true story about what a guy and his pals went through while waiting int he desert for a year or so.. it really trashes himself since it makes the main guy (swoff) look perverted and crazy

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
But... many are demanding that proper oversight return to this administration... and that's what this is about. At least, that's what this story should be about. Thanks to deception and deflection, the important issue is skirted once again.

I agree but both sides of the political spectrum to varying degrees have played with this and so many other footballs' lately that the facts get lost in all the hyperbole.

Any country has a right to protect itself from citizens who have divided loyalties and detrimental aims and ambitions. But we are innocent until proven guilty too.

Originally posted by XyZeR
A Newspaper being a terrorist organisation ?
Offcourse you do have proof to back up this ridicoulous claims ?

I thought that is what this thread was trying to address? A newspaper can incite hatred, cause riots and encourage citizens to turn against political leaders and their own country and the NYtimes is trying to do just that.

Being critical or constructive is not the same as being negative and destructive which the Time's is doing.

What I want to know is this: who owns that so-called newspaper?