India versus Pakistan: Navies 1

Originally posted by Interseptor
Acquiring ballistic missiles on ships and submarines is essential and not risky it gives the enemy second thoughts of attacking its rival this is how Russia and America played the chicken game.

Again in my prev post I explained what difficulties the Pak Navy would have in doing so.

No your wrong there only a hand full of missile around the world that are incredibly fast and have MIRV system [Multiple independently targetable reentry vehicle] this again when setup on a naval craft really shakes the enemy. As you can see the Pakistanis are more advance in missile tech it is a fact.

Really?!
1)ALL ballistic missiles(espcially those which undergo re-entry)have speeds in the vicinity of or excess of mach 10. The Agni II has speeds that go upto(and beyond?) mach 14:

The Agni-II also incorporates a terminal navigation and guidance system; the missile uses ground-based beacons to correct for deviations in the missile's path even as it travels at hypersonic speeds of over Mach 14.
Source

I think there is a general misconception that manmade objects rarely go beyond mach 10.The Space shuttle re-enters at speeds in excess of 20,000km/hr!
The farther the reach, the higher the terminal velocity. Especially if the vehicle skips into space and re-enters.

What is it able to do the faster the missile the more dangerous it is for the enemy as the missile will attack in minutes key sectors of the country and then will be a to launch a MIRV which will disable any air defence as it can not subject which warhead to attack for a complete destruction i.e. anti-missile system.

The Shaheen(or any Pakistani/Indian ballistic missile) is NOT MIRV capable.
ABM systems can target incoming warheads which are ballistic and hence can obviously deal with those speeds.
Note Israeli Arrow Missile defense radars can track targets moving at 3km/s, i.e.
~mach 10:

Radar
Radar frequency L band
Detection range 500km
Target speed Over 3km/s
Missile guidance to distance from target 4m from target
Source

With multiple warheads the missile defence gets saturated.

Last but not least the Russian Topolo ss-25 is the fastest missile on earth and still is it not taken out of the arsenal when the treaty to get rid of ICBM’s and strategic missiles was taken forward this is a fact.

Treaty to get rid of ICBMs?

And I believe You are why to patriotic about India even though I am not ‘Pakistani nor Indian’ and yeah that comment is racial and of no value if some one is giving you, don’t make that info into directly pointed to ‘racial point of view’ I know YOU DEFINATLY ARE INDIAN AFTER THAT COMMENT, o yeah this may interest you SHAHEEN 1/2 IS NEAR THE SPEED OF THE FASTEST MISSILE ON EARTH.

It was not racial. I'm saying that no detailed info on the Babur has become available online except for speculations on pakistani blogsites and fora. I am Indian and I don't intend to hide that. Infact I'm quite sure that most members on ATS know my nationality. Maybe you can look-up one of my podcasts on ATS
You not being Pakistani; well I seriously doubt that, but anyways now that you mention it, where are you from?

Western intelligence sources said Pakistan's project marked a strategy to defeat U.S.-based missile defense systems by using cruise missiles. The Babur, as well as other advanced cruise missiles, was designed to fly under radar cover and strike any target.
What's worse is that intercepting a low-flying cruise missile carrying a weapons of mass destruction warhead would ensure payload detonation in the targeted country. Sources said that no missile defense system has yet been designed that could neutralize a nuclear-tipped cruise missile without an explosion and radiation fallout.
"It will clearly have India think twice about purchasing the PAC-3 system," an intelligence source said. "The PAC-3 would be useless against Babur."
But there's more. Several of Pakistan's major strategic weapons programs have been financed by Saudi Arabia, sources said. They question whether Pakistan would eventually transfer or deploy Babur missiles in the Arab kingdom to protect against a nuclear Iran.

I don't think the PAC-3/Arrow 2/S-300 will be useless against the Babur.
Especially when an AESA eqiupped jet over an AWACS a/c can detect the same?

Here's a tomahawk getting shot doen over Kosovo. The Yugoslav army reportedly shot down 200+ cruise missiles, most by AAA!
Subsonic cruise missiles are a real duck-shoot?

Source(Scroll down to tomahawks)

You holding up pretty ok until now interseptor.. what happened?
You sure you not pakistani? It would be good to have some pakistanis on international fora. I only seee them on local fora or at best chinese fora.

[edit on 8-8-2006 by Daedalus3]

listen you are not answering but getting patriot the fact is not that the missile renters the earth at mach 10/12.5 but hoe it reaches the target at that speed example; Concorde versus Boeing which craft is faster concord is faster.

About the Dsmac and Tercom it is a theory not OFFICIAL. about the Agni being hypersonic that i wont believe because then japan is trying to make a hypersonic rocket so that it can make future space travel to other continents if India made it first why is japan buying the Agni same goes to Germany. so that statement it has no weight. About the possibility carry the shaheen is possible by creating ship which can carry such missiles like i said this is how Russia played the chicken game, about the baburi saw a Russian cruise missile similar to it you should bare in mind that distance depends on the propulsion system. And no again you didnt understand that i did not mean that the nishan mk2j turbo jet was used in the babur telling you that a country that can design and build cruise missiles first needs to design the jet engine and a jet engine that is compact that capabilities were shown in i believe in 2001 so during the space of let say 4 years they were able to design a more stronger jet engine. Again what i found on the sites could be in your opinion Pakistani fora then again i mostely used wikipedia which if you scroll down was using those sites as well.

But all your sources came from an extremist military site I went there and some of the quotes of the members is disgraceful they hat "Muslims" woo nothing of such was from my sources especially on news point of view.

Well you did strongly disagree on a true fact that the Pakistanis have an up to date missile system come on you wont find that it is wrong to say that after all it is alleged that it is a mix bag of the most advance Asian missile systems. But it is not yet proven so i heard that the Pakistani missile system is quiet hash hash.

Look the Indians have an edge on Pakistan with western tech and the Pakistanis have mostely invested in self reliance is that something agree able after all the Americans are going to give the F-16 when Israel is friends with India so why did the Pakistanis invest in the FC-1 or was it JF-1. About the Us we must agree that the Pakistanis were using their own UAVs and India was using sophisticated Israeli UAVs, why i brought this topic of UAVs because most cruise missiles are virst UAVs dependent and then turned into cruise missiles. And no I was based at any point of my argument, and by saying that there is a similar tech produced by Pakistan is not saying that it could be exact after all I said that the software was coded.

Originally posted by Daedalus3

You holding up pretty ok until now interseptor.. what happened?

You sure you not pakistani? It would be good to have some pakistanis on international fora. I only seee them on local fora or at best chinese fora.

[edit on 8-8-2006 by Daedalus3]

I am sorry again I’m not your neighbour but then again I am a Turkish/Dutch happy I just like the Pakistanis like you like the Russians the Pakistanis supply strategic equipment to Turkey and also they are Turkeys strategic ally why don’t you get that I know that you want me to be one that wants this to become prided over this issue. But sorry I have to break your hart:. Really think I’m not what you dreamt of seriously lets be on the topic rather than show racial feelings don’t you agree I am certain that you have different mind set after this post. But I can use your quote now your Indian fora what ever that means and your brilliant patriotism I deny none so don’t quote me wrong if I said so has it has led to this again the dull question .

Originally posted by Interseptor
listen you are not answering but getting patriot the fact is not that the missile renters the earth at mach 10/12.5 but hoe it reaches the target at that speed example; Concorde versus Boeing which craft is faster concord is faster.

You're thoroughly confused about air breathing engines going at mach speeds in excess of mach 7-8.
What Japan and the US X-43 are doing are hypersonic SCRAMJETS which are not purely rocket-propelled. Now cruising at hypersonic speeds using a scramjet engine is what is being achieved there.
What you're talking about is a ballistic missiles which have NO air breathing Engine and only rocket propellant!!! The re-entry stage is FREE-FALL!!! Thats why its called BALLISTIC.
Look up ballistic in a dictionary. Free-falling projectile!!!
ALL ballistic missiles have re-entry AND terminal velocities in the range of mach 10 and beyond. That wikipedia article on the shaheen said mach 10 and that doesn't mean its super fast!! The guy who posted that wiki must've thought that important enough to post not considering the fact that ALL ballistic missiles have terminal velocities in that range.
Please read up on ballistic missile flight the stages and the speeds. You will be enlightened.
Also read up on scramjet technology and countries pursuing the same. India is one of them btw.

About the Dsmac and Tercom it is a theory not OFFICIAL.

Glad we got that bit cleared up.

About the Agni being hypersonic that i wont believe because then japan is trying to make a hypersonic rocket so that it can make future space travel to other continents if India made it first why is japan buying the Agni same goes to Germany. so that statement it has no weight.

Again read up on scramjet engines and ballistic missile theory. You really need to do that before connecting disjoint pieces of information.

About the possibility carry the shaheen is possible by creating ship which can carry such missiles like i said this is how Russia played the chicken game, about the baburi saw a Russian cruise missile similar to it you should bare in mind that distance depends on the propulsion system.

I didn't understand your english.Can you re-phrase?

And no again you didnt understand that i did not mean that the nishan mk2j turbo jet was used in the babur telling you that a country that can design and build cruise missiles first needs to design the jet engine and a jet engine that is compact that capabilities were shown in i believe in 2001 so during the space of let say 4 years they were able to design a more stronger jet engine.

so DOUBLING engine capacity in 4 years? Is there some formula?
Ok forget this bit. We'll just wait and watch.

Again what i found on the sites could be in your opinion Pakistani fora then again i mostely used wikipedia which if you scroll down was using those sites as well.

stalemate..lets leave it..

But all your sources came from an extremist military site I went there and some of the quotes of the members is disgraceful they hat "Muslims" woo nothing of such was from my sources especially on news point of view.

You wen to the fora portion. The members there often express their opinions many of which even I don't agree with. Those aren't the same people who write articles on military hardware. Anyways lets not get into muslim-hating etc. because all that is irrelevant. All govt and military institutions in India are secular.

Well you did strongly disagree on a true fact that the Pakistanis have an up to date missile system come on you wont find that it is wrong to say that after all it is alleged that it is a mix bag of the most advance Asian missile systems. But it is not yet proven so i heard that the Pakistani missile system is quiet hash hash.

maybe because its not all indigenous and maybe of chinese origin?
Lets wait for more independant news on this missile.

Look the Indians have an edge on Pakistan with western tech and the Pakistanis have mostely invested in self reliance is that something agree able after all the Americans are going to give the F-16 when Israel is friends with India so why did the Pakistanis invest in the FC-1 or was it JF-1.

The economy and infrastructural capabilities of Pakistan are incapable of sustaining technological advancements like you claim.

About the Us we must agree that the Pakistanis were using their own UAVs and India was using sophisticated Israeli UAVs, why i brought this topic of UAVs because most cruise missiles are virst UAVs dependent and then turned into cruise missiles.

No such thing. You're just extending the Pakistan analogy.

And no I was based at any point of my argument, and by saying that there is a similar tech produced by Pakistan is not saying that it could be exact after all I said that the software was coded.

I never said you were biased. You said i was biased. I'm not. I'm just hesitant to swallow what is coming from pakistani fora.



[edit on 11-8-2006 by Daedalus3]

Originally posted by Daedalus3

About the Dsmac and Tercom it is a theory not OFFICIAL.

Glad we got that bit cleared up.

It is offical. It was reported in the pakistani news and has been advertised as such

these very words?
'tercom' and 'dsmac'?
please feel free to quote to sources; and not those which say 'state-of-the-art' , 'stealthy', 'hi-tech'..
These are the press-releases from the MoDs of countries which are meant for consumption of the resident masses.
Almost reminds me of the Iranian press releases of the Shkval et all!

The exact words were "Terrain following mode" that means TERCOM or DSMAC or both

Heres the video
youtube.com...

yep.. lets take their word for it then?
but wait.. they haven't produced a single guided missile so far and they jump to tercom/dsmac capable cruise missiles. with ranges no less than 500km. And using UAV engines it seems?
I beg your pardon. Its all it little hard to swallow
The site you linked is temporarily down.

To Daedalus3.,

Here's another link this time with a real life Babur missile :

youtube.com...





.

[edit on 16-8-2006 by iqonx]

yes.. thanks..
I never doubted the existence of the Babur, just its indigenousity,capabilities and re-producability.
The clip wasn't very informative in terms of capabilities except for the fact that the anchor said it was the 2nd test launch. Notably it also was from a TEL platform.
The anchor also said that the missile was capable of being launched from aerial and naval platforms.
Note he said that even though the fact remains that only 2 test launches have occured and both have been TEL launches.
The clip had the usual : 'cannot be detected by the enemy', 'has tech available to only a select few countries', 'Pakistan will maintain minimum credible deterence' etc. etc..

Originally posted by Daedalus3
yep.. lets take their word for it then?

If its reported in the pakistani media with the Pakistani president then i will believe them. Theres always a level of belief which seperates the sane from the paranoid.

they haven't produced a single guided missile so far and they jump to tercom/dsmac capable cruise missiles.

I do believe they copied the Tomahwak missiles as well as possible help from china (which have been denied by both sides)

The question you ask is whether pakistan had the same level of technology as the US when the US started making TERCOM and DSMAC. The soviets had made TERCOM guided missiles with their basic 60's technology.

EDIT:HTML

[edit on 17-8-2006 by chinawhite]