India versus Pakistan: Navies 1

I'm sorry I forgot to give the all important figures:

5 missiles per submarine for the Klub-S with 6 tubes of 533mm.
8 confirmed to be refitted with the same.

Total Number of Launch platforms : 40

In December 2001, India Defence Consultants reported that up to 200 Klub ASCMs are being supplied for the Sindhugosh Class submarines being refitted and for the future needs for the Project 17 Class frigate and the Bangalore Class destroyers.
Source

[edit on 23-7-2006 by Daedalus3]

This just in:

Delhi Class Destroyer INS Mumbai,Brahmaputra Class Frigates INS Brahmaputra & INS Betwa(I don't think I've posted on this class yet), and the auxiliary fleet tanker INS Shakti are at Lebanon conducting evacuation procedures.

Source

I still haven't looked through the air arm of the Indian Navy, but I thought now would a nice time to see where I stand with the IN's firepower ratings as per Planeman's methods:

The figures in red are my edits:



Using Planeman's rating methods for India, I built the following table:

Missile: || Score: || Launchers(Vessels):

SS-N-25 || 216400 || 160(10)
SS-N-27 || 122136/133041? || 56/61?(10/11?)
SS-N-2D || 78798 || 92(24)
Sea Eagle || 101790* || 78(44)*
PJ-10 || 26880 || 12(2)
+____________________________________________________________
546,004/556909 || 398/403(90/91)

* : Not researched by me as yet

The various possibilities in the total score,launchers and Vessels are due to to various permutations of Refitting ship(s) with new missiles and/or removing old ones.

Again all figures are 'as-of-today' and no assumptions with regard to future refits/inductions have been made. Note that the Ships presumed to be fitted with BrahMos are the INS Rajput(4 missiles) and the INS Tabar(8 missiles). It is still unconfirmed whether 9 Kilo SSKs have undergone refit or the number is still at 8.

As one may notice, A score of 546,004/556,909 is a considerable increase over the previous rating of 439,546 for India, and I still feel that there will be some changes in the air arm figures.

The bottomline is that this alters the position of India in Planeman's global firepower standings in a number of possible ways,i.e. definitely putting it above Turkey and even above the U.K.

What I'd also like to encourage is that maybe some should do a similar analysis on to confirm Planeman's findings esp in regions where the scores are not far apart.
Planeman has done an excellent job of providing us with a template for rating navies and maybe we can help him by verifying his data.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
I still haven't looked through the air arm of the Indian Navy, but I thought now would a nice time to see where I stand with the IN's firepower ratings as per Planeman's methods:

The figures in red are my edits:

Using Planeman's rating methods for India, I built the following table:

Missile: || Score: || Launchers(Vessels):

SS-N-25 || 216400 || 160(10)
SS-N-27 || 122136/133041? || 56/61?(10/11?)
SS-N-2D || 78798 || 92(24)
Sea Eagle || 101790* || 78(44)*
PJ-10 || 26880 || 12(2)
+____________________________________________________________
546,004/556909 || 398/403(90/91)

* : Not researched by me as yet

The various possibilities in the total score,launchers and Vessels are due to to various permutations of Refitting ship(s) with new missiles and/or removing old ones.

Again all figures are 'as-of-today' and no assumptions with regard to future refits/inductions have been made. Note that the Ships presumed to be fitted with BrahMos are the INS Rajput(4 missiles) and the INS Tabar(8 missiles). It is still unconfirmed whether 9 Kilo SSKs have undergone refit or the number is still at 8.

As one may notice, A score of 546,004/556,909 is a considerable increase over the previous rating of 439,546 for India, and I still feel that there will be some changes in the air arm figures.

The bottomline is that this alters the position of India in Planeman's global firepower standings in a number of possible ways,i.e. definitely putting it above Turkey and even above the U.K.

What I'd also like to encourage is that maybe some should do a similar analysis on to confirm Planeman's findings esp in regions where the scores are not far apart.
Planeman has done an excellent job of providing us with a template for rating navies and maybe we can help him by verifying his data.

Great going. Ignore my Brahmos query on the other thread, we can iron things out here.

I know it's a chore but can you post your full list - here's mine:


Obviously we should compare notes.

umm. ok..
but I will just jot everything down in freetext..

don't have time for the tabular format on weekdays!!

Since you've tabulated everything ship-wise I'll do the same but only for SSMs..

Here goes:

Delhi Class (3):

16 SS-N-25 SwitchBlade per ship

Rajput Class(5):

4 SS-N-2D Styx per ship (4 ships)

The INS Rajput(D51) has all its SS-N-2D launchers replaced with BrahMos missiles.

The forward P-20M missile cells (port and starboard) aboard INS Rajput have been replaced with two boxed launchers housing four PJ-10 (BrahMos) ASCMs. D51 served as the trials platform for the missile, which can be fitted with a conventional or nuclear payload of 200 kg.
Source

Talwar Class (3):

8 SS-N-27 Klub-N (3M14E) per ship (2 ships)

INS Tabar went into refit for BrahMos in 04 according to reports and has completed the same recently according to some of my offline sources, but hard to confirm. It was to be fitted with 8 BrahMos missiles. I am counting this as a BarhMos carrier(8). Maybe we can remove this and count this ship for 8 SS-N-27 Klub missiles, but it won't affect the overall score by much as you rate the Klub and the BrahMos almost equal (2181 and 2240).

Brahmaputra Class (3) :

16 SS-N-25 SwitchBlade per ship

Godavari Class (3) :

4 SS-N-2D Styx per ship

Kora Class (4) :

16 SS-N-25 SwitchBlade per ship

Khukri Class (4):

4 SS-N-2D Styx per ship

Tarantul(Veer) Class (12; 13 before but one vessel lost to a collision in Apr 06)

4 SS-N-2D Styx per ship

I think you missed out on 2 new boats here:

INS Prabal K92; Laid Down - 16 Feb 1998, Launched - 28 Sept 2000, Commissioned - 11 April 2002 at MDL, Mumbai.
INS Pralaya K91; Laid Down - 02 May 1998, Launched - 14 Dec 2000, Commissioned - 18 Dec 2002 at Goa SY Ltd.
Source

Kilo Class SSKs (10):

6 confirmed to have undergone refit, 1 came ready with the KLUB-S capability and 1 is a type 636 ready with KLUB-S capability(Here LACM 3M14E).
That gives 8 subs with Klub capability as of today with two undergoing refit.
However more confusion has occured due to the fact that India ordered 28 NEW SS-N-27 LACM 3M-14E with the 3 new Krivak stealth frigates.

The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), on 06 July 2006, approved the purchase of 28 Klub-S (3M-14E variant) land-attack cruise missiles at a cost of Rs 844.58 crores (USD $184 million). Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee stated, "One has already been delivered, while another one is being retrofitted in Russia. The other four will be fitted with the missiles in India." This indicates that probably INS Sindhugosh is one of the boats being fitted with 3M-14E variant, as she is the last boat to have recently returned to India after completing her mid-life refit in Russia. INS Sindhuvijay appears to be the second boat to be armed with this missile variant, as she is the only boat currently in Russia undergoing a mid-life refit. The other four boats are more than likely to be the ones that have completed their mid-life refits. Arming the boats, with this particular variant of the Klub missile, is significant as it gives the Indian Navy the ability to attack targets on land.
Source

The 'one' having the LACM capability from before is obv. the newest one (type 636) and the one being refitted is the one in Russia as of now(I assumed that this one has completed refit but now it will have to undergone an ASCM-to-LACM refit? ).
The 'other' four boats are the ones that must hve completed refits and so the will also undergo the ASCM-to-LACM refit?
very confusing!
Either way 8 SSKs have Klub-S capability as of now, according to me.

Ok now missile wise:

SS-N-25 SwitchBlade = 160
(3x16=48 Delhi Class + 3x16=48 Brahmaputra Class + 4x16=64 Kora Class)
= 48 + 48 + 64 = 160
Score= 160 X 1352.5 = 216,400

SS-N-27 Klub = 56
(2x8=16 Talwar Class + 8X5=40 Kilo SSKs)
=16 + 40 = 56
Score= 56 X 2181 = 122,136

SS-N-2D Styx = 92
(4x4=16 Rajput Class + 4x3=12 Godavari Class + 4x4=16 Khukri Class + 4x12=48 Veer Class)
=16 + 12 + 16 + 48 = 92
Score= 92 X 856.5 = 79,798

Sea Eagle=78*
* : Haven't checkup on the air arm so going with your figure of 78 ready to fire missiles.
Score= 78 x 1305 = 101,790

BrahMos= 12
(4x1=4 INS Rajput + 8X1 INS Tabar)
= 4 + 8 = 12
Score= 12 x 2240 = 26880

Total Score:
=(SS-N-25)216,400 + (SS-N-27)122,136 + (SS-N-2D)78,798 + (Sea Eagle)101,790
+ (PJ-10 BrahMos)26,880
= 546,004

The other total figure is due tht fact that I was considering a Kilo SSK which had started refits in 2006 as a refitted sub but since that will take a year we can discard that. Also interchanging the INS Tabar from carrying BrahMos to carry Klub ASCM would result in the total score being reduced by only 472, so that's to minute to consider IMO.

I hope this makes it more clear, but I'm getting more confused due to the new developments on the LACMs for the Kilos.
Planeman I think you aren't considering LACMs are you?

This an interesting fact of pakistan I did some research of the Harpoon a anti-ship missile build in 77.

this quote of a site I read.

However, the Pakistan Navy is the only navy in South Asia that has can fire the anti-ship Harpoon Block I missiles from submerged submarines.

Source:
what is your opinion on this.

Originally posted by Interseptor
This an interesting fact of pakistan I did some research of the Harpoon a anti-ship missile build in 77.

this quote of a site I read.

However, the Pakistan Navy is the only navy in South Asia that has can fire the anti-ship Harpoon Block I missiles from submerged submarines.

Source:
what is your opinion on this.

I haven't read the source but the fact that Pakistan has sub launched Harpoon block I missiles is right. it deploys them on the Agosta 70 (2 subs) and Daphne (4 subs). Each sub probably carries a "usual" load of 4 missiles (plus torpeados etc).

But the more recent Agosta 90 subs are widely reported to carry French made SM-39 Exocets instead.

Having said that Pakistan has ordered 80 Harpoon Block II missiles which are just starting to be delivered (first delivered in June i think) - an unspecified number of these will be sub launched although which subs is not clear. Older reports had quoted 130 Block II missile divided 50 sub launched, 50 surface launched and 30 air launched. If those relative divisions remain then Pakistan will probably get 30 sub launched Harpoon Block IIs.

The Harpoon assessment is obv true since no other Navy in South Asia did or currently operates the Harpoon.
These Harpoon II missiles are coming from where?

No there are other countries that use Harpoon missile e.g. Taiwan and South Korea.
But about the Block 2 system is not an anti-ship missile but land attacking missile its initial flight becomes a terminal guided system like all Harpoons but it attacks I believe stationary object on land, I am sure if Pakistan can clearly have any use on a sub the block 1 is a really good choice, but block to will be indeed used on the destroyer type boat or equal to it.

It is very hard to believe this stupid thing I read because it is always, said so that Pakistan and Indian patriots talk about which country is better, but because were talking about navy I read this article Pakistan during 71 war
Quote

INS Khukri was an old Type 14 ASW (Anti-submarine Warfare) frigate in the Indian Navy. It was sunk by a Pakistan Navy new French Daphne class submarine PNS Hangor at 2000hrs on 8 December 1971 during the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971, off the coast of Diu, Gujarat, India. This was one of 2 submarine kills since World War II (the other was the sinking of the Argentine cruiser General Belgrano by the British nuclear-powered submarine HMS Conqueror in the 1982 Falklands war), and remains India's biggest wartime casualty.
Source

Originally posted by Interseptor
No there are other countries that use Harpoon missile e.g. Taiwan and South Korea.
But about the Block 2 system is not an anti-ship missile but land attacking missile its initial flight becomes a terminal guided system like all Harpoons but it attacks I believe stationary object on land, I am sure if Pakistan can clearly have any use on a sub the block 1 is a really good choice, but block to will be indeed used on the destroyer type boat or equal to it.

It is very hard to believe this stupid thing I read because it is always, said so that Pakistan and Indian patriots talk about which country is better, but because were talking about navy I read this article Pakistan during 71 war
Quote

INS Khukri was an old Type 14 ASW (Anti-submarine Warfare) frigate in the Indian Navy. It was sunk by a Pakistan Navy new French Daphne class submarine PNS Hangor at 2000hrs on 8 December 1971 during the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971, off the coast of Diu, Gujarat, India. This was one of 2 submarine kills since World War II (the other was the sinking of the Argentine cruiser General Belgrano by the British nuclear-powered submarine HMS Conqueror in the 1982 Falklands war), and remains India's biggest wartime casualty.
Source

I think you are confusing the Harpoon Block II with something else; it is an anti-ship missile.

Re Pakistan's Harpoon Block II purchase - it will be a MASSIVE leap in fire power for the PN/PAF. I think that in aircraft terms it will be the Orions that get it rather than the Mirages (a sqdn of which currently have Exocets). If they deploy it on the F-16s (which is possible but unlikely IMO) then that would be even more potent.

But as PN leaps ahead with new missiles, India leaps even further into the lead with the introduction of the Brahmos (spelt?). Once India has MiG-29Ks with Brahmos it'll be off the scale impressive firepower.

Originally posted by planeman

Originally posted by Interseptor
No there are other countries that use Harpoon missile e.g. Taiwan and South Korea.
But about the Block 2 system is not an anti-ship missile but land attacking missile its initial flight becomes a terminal guided system like all Harpoons but it attacks I believe stationary object on land, I am sure if Pakistan can clearly have any use on a sub the block 1 is a really good choice, but block to will be indeed used on the destroyer type boat or equal to it.

It is very hard to believe this stupid thing I read because it is always, said so that Pakistan and Indian patriots talk about which country is better, but because were talking about navy I read this article Pakistan during 71 war
Quote

INS Khukri was an old Type 14 ASW (Anti-submarine Warfare) frigate in the Indian Navy. It was sunk by a Pakistan Navy new French Daphne class submarine PNS Hangor at 2000hrs on 8 December 1971 during the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971, off the coast of Diu, Gujarat, India. This was one of 2 submarine kills since World War II (the other was the sinking of the Argentine cruiser General Belgrano by the British nuclear-powered submarine HMS Conqueror in the 1982 Falklands war), and remains India's biggest wartime casualty.
Source

I think you are confusing the Harpoon Block II with something else; it is an anti-ship missile.

Re Pakistan's Harpoon Block II purchase - it will be a MASSIVE leap in fire power for the PN/PAF. I think that in aircraft terms it will be the Orions that get it rather than the Mirages (a sqdn of which currently have Exocets). If they deploy it on the F-16s (which is possible but unlikely IMO) then that would be even more potent.

But as PN leaps ahead with new missiles, India leaps even further into the lead with the introduction of the Brahmos (spelt?). Once India has MiG-29Ks with Brahmos it'll be off the scale impressive firepower.

your right The system SLAM sytem which stands for Stand-off Land Attack Missile is stille a land based system but it is mostely in sue for anti ship your correct about the indian advances in a air fleet that could really show great threat to pakistan, but if to stablize this threat the pakistanis can insure some threat by installing the Babur cruise missile to every ship and submarine guided missiles always are dangerous.

The Harpoon is an all weather, subsonic, over the horizon, anti-ship missile which can be launch from surface ships, submarines and aircraft. The Harpoon Block II is the latest version of the Harpoon missile and is able to strike land-based targets and ships in littoral environments. The Block II incorporated the GPS/INS guidance system of the JDAM bombs and the mission computer, software, and GPS antenna employed by the SLAM ER missile
Source

Originally posted by Interseptor
No there are other countries that use Harpoon missile e.g. Taiwan and South Korea.

True, but they aren't in South Asia; Both are in the far east.

INS Khukri was an old Type 14 ASW (Anti-submarine Warfare) frigate in the Indian Navy. It was sunk by a Pakistan Navy new French Daphne class submarine PNS Hangor at 2000hrs on 8 December 1971 during the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971, off the coast of Diu, Gujarat, India. This was one of 2 submarine kills since World War II (the other was the sinking of the Argentine cruiser General Belgrano by the British nuclear-powered submarine HMS Conqueror in the 1982 Falklands war), and remains India's biggest wartime casualty.
Source

Yes.. nobody's ( including Indian patriots )denying that.
Note Old Type 14 ASW sunk by New Daphne sub. Also note Operation Trident and Operation Python in the same war:

Within hours of outbreak of hostilities, the Indian Missile Boat Group was ordered to execute operation Trident, the code name for the first attack on Karachi. The task group consisting of three OSA class missile boats, escorted by two Kamorta class anti-submarine patrol vessels, regrouped off Okha and charged towards Karachi. At 2150 hrs on December 4, the task group was 70 nautical miles south-west of Karachi. Soon thereafter, the task group detected patrolling Pakistani naval ships on their sensors. The deadly missiles were heading towards their targets which were soon hit. PNS Khyber, a destroyer and PNS Muhafiz, a minesweeper were sunk. Another Pakistani destroyer Shajehan was badly damaged. The fuel storage tanks at Karachi harbour were set ablaze, causing heavy loss. Operation Trident was a thundering success with no damage to any of the ships of the Indian Naval Task Group, which returned safely. Operation Trident had introduced to the war, the first ever ship launched missiles in the region.

Enthused by the success of this attack, the Indian Navy planned another offensive operation, code named Python. The continued presence of the Indian Navy’s larger ships is the area gave enough indication to the Pakistani naval authorities that more offensive operations were in the offing. The Pak aerial surveillance was stepped up and their ships attempted to outsmart the Indian Navy by mingling with merchant shipping. Notwithstanding these measures by the Pakistanis, operation Python was launched on the night on December 8 and 9, 1971. Despite bad weather and rough seas, the task group consisting of missile boat Vinash and two multipurpose frigates, executed the attack with razor sharp precision. INS Vinash approached close to the Karachi coast and fired four missiles. The first missile struck the fuel tanks at the Keamari Oil Farm. The other three missiles hit the merchant tankers Harmattan, Gulf Star and the Pakistani naval tanker Dacca. More than 50 percent of the total fuel requirement of the Karachi zone was reported to have been blown up. Operation Python was another great success.

Global Security Source

Another Source

your correct about the indian advances in a air fleet that could really show great threat to pakistan, but if to stablize this threat the pakistanis can insure some threat by installing the Babur cruise missile to every ship and submarine guided missiles always are dangerous.

I haven't heard much about the Babur from non-Pakistani/Indian sources; incidently both either thoroughly defaming it or praising beyond comparisions.

Subsonic, 500km range, tomahawk derivative, 7 meters in length (known)
2 tests conducted; the first one off a TEL, and the second one too launched from TEL I think. Don't know what the difference in the versions was but people
(note people and not reports) claim that the 2nd one was tested on 'other' platforms.

stealthy,undectable,pin-point precision,GPS enabled,can hit moving targets,launchable from subs,ships and a/c too
(proclaimed)

Now the CEP is not given, and if its using the civilian GPS band, the resolution is 30m I think.
No information on targetting and tracking radars,terrain recognition abilities, mid-course correction capabilities, stages, trajectories etc etc even though its been a year since the first launch and 6 months since the missile reportedly went into 'serial production'.

So the Babur is really an unknown in most aspects.
I am more of non-neutral in this aspect so could you please share your thoughts with us on this missile?

BrahMos is coined using the names of rivers Brahmaputra in India, and Moskva in Russia.
'Brah-Mos'

Great post Daedalus3

Well what I speculate that the Babur missile is a Tomahawk that by the Pakistanis is copied. I do believe it is impossible to copy it so therefore the Babur probably reverse engineered and uses a similar guidance system why I am saying this is because the tomahawk cruise missiles uses jet engine I believe Williams International F107-WR-402 turbofan and the software is obviously coded. So therefore they are using there own jet engine because they developed a UAV in Pakistan that had a jet engine, a compact jet engine for a sea skimming system.

We all know that the Pakistanis are being trying to achieve a cruise missile for years and they hit a chance to copy the ones that fell in Pakistan. The Brahmos is advance in speed I believe the fastest in whole of Asia but it does have some draw backs like it doesn’t have a very long range and I haven’t heard about the accuracy, yet it is quiet deadly. The reverse engineered tomahawk is quite deadly it has accuracy and is long range I heard in the second test the missile increased it range by 550 km? The babur is a Tercom and Dsmac this gives it excellent survival capabilities and especial radar evading and extreme accuracy. But it to have a drawback it does not have the speed of the Brahmos which isn’t very bad. This is just a whish if both were combined they would be the worlds most deadliest cruise missile it would have accuracy speed can evade radar detection and have a very long range serious stuff. If India has to take the Babur down it probably should some how increase its navy in numbers and setup the Brahmos on its naval crafts because babur is much more lethal when it is on a naval craft it can attack in sudden response with no detection. If Pakistan is overwhelmed by the number of Indian navy it would not risk a nay strike on India.

Watch this picture of the tomahawk it just tells u the accuracy of this weapon.


The shaheen 1/2 a Pakistani missile with terminal guidance system and a speed of mach 10 if this is naval capable it could really shake Indian defence hard the missile is alleged that it can evade the patriot missile system. The speed of the missile is incredible its fast as the Russian Topolo ss-25 said to be the worlds fastest missile its speed was 15000 kilometers/hour = 12.56450627994546 Mach basically mach 12.5 the Pakistanis are quiet advance in missile technology at the moment. To balance this the Indian air carrier that was bought from the Russians and soon is to be launched in 2008 after initial upgrades have been done which the Indian government proposes a $800 million expanses. The craft will hold number of Mig 29s this would give a major draw back to Pakistan as it does not have any air carrier in its history nor I believe plans to have one. The Pakistan will be out numbered in air defence balance and naval balanced it does not stand a chance against India if does not increase its number in naval crafts but the deployment of strategic missile system and integrating them will push Indian naval supremacy to a halt as I believe.

In my statements I have tried to as positive and balanced as I can the statement are only naval systems.

I have used the following sources
Pakistanidefence.com
Wikipedia.com
en.wikipedia.org...
softwar.net
www.softwar.net...

My question is do both countries have the capability to do a crusader war what I mean is are both naval powers able to load tanks and rocket trucks and troops etc like e.g. Britian.

Originally posted by Interseptor
Great post Daedalus3

Well what I speculate that the Babur missile is a Tomahawk that by the Pakistanis is copied. I do believe it is impossible to copy it so therefore the Babur probably reverse engineered and uses a similar guidance system why I am saying this is because the tomahawk cruise missiles uses jet engine I believe Williams International F107-WR-402 turbofan and the software is obviously coded. So therefore they are using there own jet engine because they developed a UAV in Pakistan that had a jet engine, a compact jet engine for a sea skimming system.

Well I've tried to look up this indigenous Pakistani UAV and haven't come up with much, except that the program to a boost when an INDIAN UAV was shot down over Pakistan in 2002. Also that they are researching short range UAVs(not even sure if it is jet-based)
So using something like that on a cruise missile having a range of 500km+ is not very probable. The software can be coded but that doesn't mean you can't use the engine bare bones. There is no doubt that most of the engine/software technology has come from China which for very very obvious reasons will be very very interested in the tomahawk

The Brahmos is advance in speed I believe the fastest in whole of Asia but it does have some draw backs like it doesn’t have a very long range and I haven’t heard about the accuracy, yet it is quiet deadly.

The range is compromised as the MTCR(Missile technolgoy control regime)prevents countries exporting missiles to/developing missiles with other countries having a range of +300km. Russia is a signaotry of the MCTR. Also the missile dimensions will need to be considered for increasing range and having a supersonic missile of great ranges is again a technical problem.
Anyways the BrahMos is fast and has a sea skimming terminal phase. Accuracy well it seems this is a figure not disclosed, but if it is to hit a moving target then that pretty much speaks for itself.

The reverse engineered tomahawk is quite deadly it has accuracy and is long range I heard in the second test the missile increased it range by 550 km?

I haven't heard that.. even though I scoured through sites for this. No indepedant sources confirming too. Blogs and forum posts don't count for much unless they quote independant sources. Even the blogs say that in was on a different platform(though land based again).

The babur is a Tercom and Dsmac this gives it excellent survival capabilities and especial radar evading and extreme accuracy.

Yeah but that's on the tomahawk. Who said its on the Babur?
See everyone's(pakistani bloggers and only-pakistan fora) going like this:
The babur looks like the tomahawk-->so it has all the jazz the tomahawk does.
It obviously doesn't work that way. Tercom and Dsmac are very complicated and intricate systems requiring in-depth knowledge in software and real-time image processing. I frankly cannot fathom Pakistan acquiring this ability let alone mastering it. Imagine the amount of infrastructural facilities and the knowledge base required for that.
Lets wait till some sources (like Jane) give us more than just 'it resembles the tomahawk'.

But it to have a drawback it does not have the speed of the BrahMos which isn’t very bad.

Actually its a drawback because any decent AWACS and/or AESA can pick up such missiles and being subsonic gives ample reaction time. India has the S-300/S-400, Arrow-2 and maybe PACII/III systems available for purchase, along with already inducted BARAK-I missile defences. BARAK-II is a joint Indo-Israeli venture.

The shaheen 1/2 a Pakistani missile with terminal guidance system and a speed of mach 10 if this is naval capable it could really shake Indian defence hard the missile is alleged that it can evade the patriot missile system. The speed of the missile is incredible its fast as the Russian Topolo ss-25 said to be the worlds fastest missile its speed was 15000 kilometers/hour = 12.56450627994546 Mach basically mach 12.5 the Pakistanis are quiet advance in missile technology at the moment.

1) Its ballistic. All ballistic missiles acquire a terminal velocity in that mach range
2)Its not naval capable. On the other hand the 'Dhanush'(naval version of Prithvi) is ballistic and tested.
3)It can't hit moving targets, Not with INS.(Inertial guidance)
4)Using an ballistic missile on a carrier can be very risky. It could set of a nuclear war by mistake.

but the deployment of strategic missile system and integrating them will push Indian naval supremacy to a halt as I believe.

Lets see. Currently the PN sub fleet can prove to be very dangerous for IN carrier(s), but then again an attack on a carrier will invite more problems, and as you can see absolute firepower of the IN is quite big even on global standards.

Also the IN is the fastest growing navy in the world with 6 new SSKs on their way,3 new stealth frigates,a whole new stealthy destroyer class (Proj 15A),a whole new stealthy frigate class(Proj 17),new corvette class(Proj 28),loads of new FAC,new amphibious troop/tank carrying craft, 2 carriers on their way,2-4 SSNS(AkulaII?) on their way and/or maybe 1-5 indigenous SSNs.

In my statements I have tried to as positive and balanced as I can the statement are only naval systems.

We appreciate that

My question is do both countries have the capability to do a crusader war what I mean is are both naval powers able to load tanks and rocket trucks and troops etc like e.g. Britian.

Not really, but India has that ability to a certain extent today; and will definitely have that ability in the near future taking into account the awesome expansion it plans!


[edit on 5-8-2006 by Daedalus3]

Well I've tried to look up this indigenous Pakistani UAV and haven't come up with much

The Pakistanis have very indigenous integrated and advance UAV setup, it had won some deals from America for a UAV called the border eagle there are several private companies that are designing UAVs. I can’t understand how come u couldn’t find any. After all I believe in 2003? when lots of intrusions of Indian UAVs into Pakistan of which all of the Indian UAV that were bought from Israel were shot down and only one of a Pakistani UAV was shot down of several intrusions of Pakistan all in all the Pakistani UAVs were indigenous. No source yet claims that the UAVs were either Chinese or any other respected country. I still believe the Tercom and Dsmac have connections with the UAVs that were used during that short conflict.

How because I read this source after extensive research, India has a more advance and deadly radar and communication system then Pakistan its more structured and able to detect intrusions of all kinds. But even this all could not detect a Pakistani UAV that flew very deep into Indian Territory and came back into Pakistan without a scratch.

Quote

One source confirmed that one of such UAVs went quite deep in Indian territory and returned successfully after collecting required data.
The two versions include a tactical version of UAV with the flying range of 150km onwards while the strategic version of the UAV can go up to 350km onwards.
The two state-of-the-art systems can autonomously fly a pre-programmed mission or can be piloted by the Air Vehicle Controller. The strategic version of the UAV has the capability to adapt to the change of mission during the flight. It can transmit information and data through ground control station and can even change the flight path, height and speed according to the situation.

Source
A another statement

Pakistan Navy in order to significantly enhance its long-range strike abilities.

It is believed that range of this missile can be upto 300km (within the MTCR range) and can carry both conventional and nuclear warheads. It is designed to fly at extremely low altitudes at high speeds and is piloted over an evasive route by several mission tailored guidance systems. It will have the capability to hit high value or heavily guarded targets. One of its special features is that this essentially anti-ship missile can be launched from ground, ship, submarine or air. The eventual addition of this strategic missile is a logical follow- up of the goals set by Pakistan as country’s nuclear philosophy.

No official word is available to confirm the test firing of cruise missile

Source

1) Its ballistic. All ballistic missiles acquire a terminal velocity in that mach range
2)Its not naval capable. On the other hand the 'Dhanush'(naval version of Prithvi) is ballistic and tested.
3)It can't hit moving targets, Not with INS.(Inertial guidance)
4)Using an ballistic missile on a carrier can be very risky. It could set of a nuclear war by mistake.

Yes I do know what a ballistic missile is but before the ‘DHABUSH’, shaheen already was capable to be launched from ships and submarines. The Pakistani have not yet able DEVELOP the launch system for ships and submarines.

The Shaheen missile can deliver either a conventional or a non-conventional payload and is powered by a solid propellant engine, making it a faster to deploy than systems such as the Ghauri or Agni missile. All of the missile's systems, including the avionics are manufactured indigenously by Pakistan, meaning that Pakistan retains full control over the technology used. It is also thought that Pakistan is in the process of developing the capability to fire these missiles from submarines and ships, a feature that would greatly enhance the deterrent capability of the Pakistani navy which is at present seen as somewhat inferior to the Indian navy.

Source

Acquiring ballistic missiles on ships and submarines is essential and not risky it gives the enemy second thoughts of attacking its rival this is how Russia and America played the chicken game. No your wrong there only a hand full of missile around the world that are incredibly fast and have MIRV system [Multiple independently targetable reentry vehicle] this again when setup on a naval craft really shakes the enemy. As you can see the Pakistanis are more advance in missile tech it is a fact. What is it able to do the faster the missile the more dangerous it is for the enemy as the missile will attack in minutes key sectors of the country and then will be a to launch a MIRV which will disable any air defence as it can not subject which warhead to attack for a complete destruction i.e. anti-missile system.

Last but not least the Russian Topolo ss-25 is the fastest missile on earth and still is it not taken out of the arsenal when the treaty to get rid of ICBM’s and strategic missiles was taken forward this is a fact. And I believe You are why to patriotic about India

See everyone's(pakistani bloggers and only-pakistan fora)

even though I am not ‘Pakistani nor Indian’ and yeah that comment is racial and of no value if some one is giving you, don’t make that info into directly pointed to ‘racial point of view’ I know YOU DEFINATLY ARE INDIAN AFTER THAT COMMENT, o yeah this may interest you SHAHEEN 1/2 IS NEAR THE SPEED OF THE FASTEST MISSILE ON EARTH.

Yeah but that's on the tomahawk. Who said its on the Babur?
See everyone's(pakistani bloggers and only-pakistan fora) going like this:
The babur looks like the tomahawk-->so it has all the jazz the tomahawk does.

Quote from a site

2//PakTribune (Pakistan News Service), Pakistan--PAKISTAN SUCCESSFULLY TEST-FIRES HATF-VII CRUISE MISSILE (Pakistan on Tuesday successfully test-fired a cruise missile that can carry a nuclear warhead and hit targets within a 310-mile range, the army said. Pakistan first tested the Babur, or Hatf VII, cruise missile in August last year. … Babur cruise missile, which was tested in the ground launched version, will also be capable of being placed in submarines and on surface ships. The Babur, which has near stealth capabilities, is a low flying, terrain hugging missile with high maneuverability, accuracy, and radar avoidance features with a range of 500 kms. It can carry all types of warheads. … The Prime Minister said that the nation is proud of their achievement and values their efforts in making the country’s defense even more impregnable. Pakistan, he said, is a peaceful country, which does not harbor aggressive designs against any country. It is keen to ensure a minimum credible deterrence in order to ensure peace in the region, the Prime Minister added.)

Source

The babur I believe does have the (capabilities near to) the tercom and Dsmac, even if china didn’t develop it yet. After all their uav are test to India of advancing Pakistani missile technology I read and have source that the babur is being transfer of technology to turkey and Arab countries it was funded by Saudi Arabia.

Western intelligence sources said Pakistan's project marked a strategy to defeat U.S.-based missile defense systems by using cruise missiles. The Babur, as well as other advanced cruise missiles, was designed to fly under radar cover and strike any target.
What's worse is that intercepting a low-flying cruise missile carrying a weapons of mass destruction warhead would ensure payload detonation in the targeted country. Sources said that no missile defense system has yet been designed that could neutralize a nuclear-tipped cruise missile without an explosion and radiation fallout.
"It will clearly have India think twice about purchasing the PAC-3 system," an intelligence source said. "The PAC-3 would be useless against Babur."
But there's more. Several of Pakistan's major strategic weapons programs have been financed by Saudi Arabia, sources said. They question whether Pakistan would eventually transfer or deploy Babur missiles in the Arab kingdom to protect against a nuclear Iran.

Source



its in turkish so ill say some words it is about the Babur missile and what the talks about are turning into.

The indigenous development of jet uav could possible the speculation That Pakistan was trying to acquire Cruise missile technologie I did not say that the turbo jet was literally used in the bubur design this information was to show that pakistan is able to design compact jet engines either from help or lndigenous.

Nishan Mk-2TJ is a high speed Turbo Jet version of Nishan Mk-2. Powered by a dynamic 70 lbs static thrust full flow mini turbo jet engine, TJ can reach to staggering speeds in excess of 370 kms.

source

Yeah but that's on the tomahawk. Who said its on the Babur?

It was actually reported when the pakistani president gave his opinion in the news about the missile test. It went along with a animation that has been floating around on the internet

Originally posted by Interseptor
The Pakistanis have very indigenous integrated and advance UAV setup, it had won some deals from America for a UAV called the border eagle there are several private companies that are designing UAVs.

The border eagle system is for homeland security to prevent overzealous mexicans from illegally crossing into the US

I can’t understand how come u couldn’t find any.

Well I doubt you've found many non-pakistani sources as well
Anyways lets give you the benefit of the doubt for the moment.

After all I believe in 2003? when lots of intrusions of Indian UAVs into Pakistan of which all of the Indian UAV that were bought from Israel were shot down and only one of a Pakistani UAV was shot down of several intrusions of Pakistan all in all the Pakistani UAVs were indigenous.

ALL Indian UAVs shot down? As in : all which made border incursions? Are you sure? Thats a LOT of UAVs! And Israeli UAVs aren't low-tech. Why even China is/was buying them!

No source yet claims that the UAVs were either Chinese or any other respected country. I still believe the Tercom and Dsmac have connections with the UAVs that were used during that short conflict.

No source claims that the UAVs are chinese but loads of them suspect that the Babur is not entirely of Pakistani origin.Infact even all those pakistani fora and blogs I scanned through admit chinese input in the Babur.
Infact other sources link the hezbollah fired C-802 back to China and Pakistan.Here the Babur seems to have influences from the Russian(via ukraina via china) Kh-55SM nuclear-capable cruise missile with a range of 3000km

None of the Kh-55SMs from Ukraine had their 200 kiloton nuclear warheads. But the deal included the system for testing, programming and launching the missiles which had been in service for a number of years. China and Pakistan, both declared nuclear powers, evidently wanted to strip the missiles to copy and incorporate its design, propulsion and guidance components into their own efforts to develop long-range cruise missiles—a process known as reverse engineering.

US Source

How because I read this source after extensive research, India has a more advance and deadly radar and communication system then Pakistan its more structured and able to detect intrusions of all kinds. But even this all could not detect a Pakistani UAV that flew very deep into Indian Territory and came back into Pakistan without a scratch.

Yes, but unfortunately all your sources are pakistani, and having a few neutral sources would help. Infact I have a couple of questions about the Pak UAV intrusion that went undetected.

The source goes like this:

Well placed sources told Pakistan Observer that Air Weapon Complex, NDC and a private sector joint cooperation has produced two UAVs which are far superior than the Indian spy planes. Many successful test flights have been conducted by Pakistan in last few months. One source confirmed that one of such UAVs went quite deep in Indian territory and returned successfully after collecting required data.

Now according to this excerpt, the UAVs were being tested in Indian territory. Now as far I know normal operating procedure for any military equipment is to undergo extensive testing before it is inducted and made thoroughly operational. 'Testing' a UAV which is 'far superior' to its indian counterparts within indian territory is not advisable especially if it were to fall into indian hands.

Although I did get a reproduced Jane's Article about a Nishan MK2 TJ forum another forum:

Jane's Missiles and Rockets, Dec 1 2002 issue says:

Pakistan tests sea-skimming UAV
David C Isby

Pakistan has announced it has tested technology for a sea-skimming version of its 35km-range National Development Complex (NDC) delta-wing Nishan Mk 2TJ target drone.

The "surface-skimming module" was announced when this turbojet-powered version of the Nishan had been displayed in 2001, but this has apparently been the first test of the capability.

The Nishan Mk 2 TJ has a maximum speed of 370km/h, a 42kg takeoff weight and can carry a 12kg payload. The announcement was apparently made to counter India's successful test in June of the BrahMos anti-ship missile being developed in co-operation with Russia.

It suggests that Pakistan is investing in technologies that would enable it to develop indigenous anti-ship missiles comparable to the BrahMos.

In the interim, however, the modified Nishan would allow Pakistan to develop countermeasures against surface-skimming threats.

forum.keypublishing.co.uk...

This is of 02' vintage and was for a target drone UAV which was of the sea skimming type.A max speed of 370 km/h (103 m/s) translates to a max velocity of mach 0.3 which is 1/10th the sea-skimming supersonic velocity of the BraHMos(Mach 3 ~)and notably 40 % of the speed of the tomahawk cruise missile. If this engine if used for the Babur then it would probably make it the slowest, most easily pickable cruise missile around. Not a likely choice. So that leaves us with China, the tomahawk dud and the Kh-55SM.

A another statement
Pakistan Navy in order to significantly enhance its long-range strike abilities.

It is believed that range of this missile can be upto 300km (within the MTCR range) and can carry both conventional and nuclear warheads. It is designed to fly at extremely low altitudes at high speeds and is piloted over an evasive route by several mission tailored guidance systems. It will have the capability to hit high value or heavily guarded targets. One of its special features is that this essentially anti-ship missile can be launched from ground, ship, submarine or air. The eventual addition of this strategic missile is a logical follow- up of the goals set by Pakistan as country’s nuclear philosophy.

No official word is available to confirm the test firing of cruise missile

Source

This is of 04' vintage. Very old
It seems that they are referring to the Babur which was later tested in 05'. It is NOT less 300km hence the very mention of the MTCR makes the whole thing very suspicious, because the MTCR does not put restrictions on indigenously developed cruise missiles. Anyways I don't think China is a signatory of the MTCR so why mention the MTCR anyways?!!
Fastforward to today. The Babur has not been tested from any non-TEL platform, let alone a naval/aerial platform. So lets wait for the naval bit a little while more.

Yes I do know what a ballistic missile is but before the ‘DHABUSH’, shaheen already was capable to be launched from ships and submarines. The Pakistani have not yet able DEVELOP the launch system for ships and submarines.

I'm sorry.. I didn't quite understand; Are you trying to say that the Shaheen-missile is navy-capable, but th Pak Navy is not Shaheen-capable??!!

The Shaheen missile can deliver either a conventional or a non-conventional payload and is powered by a solid propellant engine, making it a faster to deploy than systems such as the Ghauri or Agni missile. All of the missile's systems, including the avionics are manufactured indigenously by Pakistan, meaning that Pakistan retains full control over the technology used. It is also thought that Pakistan is in the process of developing the capability to fire these missiles from submarines and ships, a feature that would greatly enhance the deterrent capability of the Pakistani navy which is at present seen as somewhat inferior to the Indian navy.

Source

Anyways lets look at the Shaheen 1/2:

Launch mass 25,000 kg
Re-Entry Vehicle Mass: 1,050 kg

Length 17.5 m
Diameter 1.4 m

Compare this to the Prithvi(Dhanush):

Length meters 8.55
Width meters 1.1
Warhead:
Prithvi-2 = 500-750
Prithvi-3 = 1,000
Weight kg. 4,000 - 4,500


Note the Dhanush can fire both Prithvi I and II. Now noticeably the Shaheen is twice as long, a bit wider and more than 5 times as heavy as the Prithvi.
Now looking at the tomahawk;
it has a launch mass of approx 1000kg, length of 6-7 meters?
Even the Trident SLBM (which is only launched from SSBNs) is not more than 12 meters in length.
Lets take a look a soviet missiles:

SS-N-6:

Total Mass: 14.200 kg
Diameter: 1.50 m
Total Length: 8.89 m
Span: 1.50 m
Payload: 650 kg


Again similar to the Prithvi.
IMHO launching the Shaheen I/II from ANY ship would pose a serious technological/physical challenge. Its just too big and heavy for surface ships and just too long for subs. The Exocet SM-39 is only 5 meters in length while the Harpoon is 4.5 meters long. Any sub couldn't possibly launch the Shaheen in its current form and weight, unless the Pakistan navy is developing a smaller Shaheen(again no news on this) AND is developing large frigates/destroyer class vessels/SSKs/SSNs/SSBNs(no news of this either though th ePN is buying some F-22 chinese frigates) to launch this 'smaller' Shaheen.

Originally posted by chinawhite

Yeah but that's on the tomahawk. Who said its on the Babur?

It was actually reported when the pakistani president gave his opinion in the news about the missile test. It went along with a animation that has been floating around on the internet

The Pak president said that the missile had TERCOM and DSMAC?!!!
I doubt he even knows what that means!!
Anyways these technologies aren't even perfected by the likes of China so Pakistan miraculously mastering them in the given timespan is absurd.
The info floating around is only on Pak fora. You'd expect a little more than that.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
The Pak president said that the missile had TERCOM and DSMAC?!!!

Read my post carefully. I stated that the information was reported when the pak president gave his address to the media.

Tercom is old technology which basically has a contour map of the area in its computer and a radar altimeter to measure how high or low it is in altitude. DSMAC is another story but considering the advances in technology in the post few years its very possible to make DSMAC guidence considering pakistan has/had a live example of the tomahawk guidence

Here is a link to the animation