India versus Pakistan: Navies 1

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posted on Jul, 3 2006 @ 12:05 AM
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Planeman, I'm not so sure that the IN has only 2 subs capable of firing the Klub-S because all the type 877EKM Kilos were/are undergoing refits:


Names & Pennant Numbers with commission dates:
1). INS Sindhugosh S55 (30 April 1986) - Refit Complete (Confirmed to be fitted with LACM Klub-S 3M-14E variant)
2). INS Sindhudhvaj S56 (12 June 1987) - ()
3). INS Sindhuraj S57 (20 October 1987) - Refit Complete
4). INS Sindhuvir S58 (26 August 1988) - Refit Complete
5). INS Sindhuratna S59 (22 December 1988) - Refit Complete
6). INS Sindhukesari S60 (16 February 1989) - Refit Complete
7). INS Sindhukirti S61 (04 January 1990) - Undergoing Refit (started in Jan 2006 in India)
8). INS Sindhuvijay S62 (08 March 1991) - Undergoing Refit (started in June 2005)
9). INS Sindhurakshak S63 (24 December 1997)
10).INS Sindhushastra S65 (19 July 2000) (Type 636?)



Kilo Class submarines have been nicknamed 'Black Hole' by NATO for their silent operation in the sea. An agreement with Russia was concluded in the mid-1980s for the transfer of eight Kilo Class submarines. The first submarine in the class - INS Sindhugosh - was commissioned in April 1986 in Riga, Russia and seven more boats entered service with the Indian Navy in another five years. In January 1997, two 'improved' Kilo Class boats were ordered by the Indian Navy and the first - INS Sindhurakshak - was commissioned in December 1997 in St. Petersburg, Russia. This submarine was a spare Type 877EKM hull built for the Russian Navy, but was never purchased. The second boat - INS Sindhushastra - commissioned in July 2000 also at St. Petersburg, is rumoured to be a Type 636.

INS Sindhuvir completed a two-year mid-life refit at the Admiralty Shipyard, St. Petersburg in April 1999 and she was ready for active service in October 1999. INS Sindhuraj returned to Mumbai after completing her refit, also at the Admiralty Shipyard. INS Sindhukesari returned to Mumbai after completing her refit at the Zvyozdochka (Little Star) shipyard in Severodvinsk. INS Sindhuratna also completed her refit at Zvyozdochka SY and in September 2002, left on her return journey to India. INS Sindhugosh is the third submarine to complete her refit at the Zvyozdochka SY and returned to India in late 2005. INS Sindhuvijay is the next submarine expected to undergo a modernisation, which began in June 2005 also at the Zvyozdochka SY.


Refit Details:



The mid-life refit involves a complete overhaul of the submarine, including its hull structure. An upgrade package is also part of this extensive refit, which has been designed by Zvyozdochka's Onega Research & Development Technological Bureau and costs roughly US $80 million. The refit sees the submarines being installed with the Klub-S ASCM (a maximum of five missiles can be carried) and the associated Lama-ER control system, new sonars (probably the MGK-400EM), electronic warfare systems, new control systems from Avrora such as the Palladij-M machinery control system and the AICS (Automated Information & Control system) integrated weapon control system.


Source for both excerpts

Thus, as per the above info all 10(as of now 8) will be fitted with the Klub-S variants. Most of them are supposedly fitted with the slightly rangewise inferior
3M-54E AShCM variant(220km) rather than the 3M-54E1AShCM(300km), while one is confirmed to be fitted with the 3M-14E LACM(300km) variant of the Klub-S.
So as per my assessment, currently (and in the future with the new Scorpene class subs) the IN surpasses the PN in the dpet. of submarine lanuched missiles as well.
However I have not confirmed the details of the above refits from offline sources. I will do the same and get back by the next weekend.




posted on Jul, 9 2006 @ 10:16 AM
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I've been doing a bit of research with the IN and I've decided that a Class wise description of all IN assets would be best in order to gauge the firepower,strategic depth and defensive capabilities of the IN.

I'll start of with the Delhi Class Destroyers and then move on to other vessels:

DELHI CLASS(Proj 15):

This is the largest surface ships ever constructed in India with tonnage ranging from 6500 - 7000 tons depending on loadout.
This class has a maximum range of approx. 5000 miles and has a crew complement of 350+ including 40 officers.

Radar :

One MR-775 Fregat MAE (NATO: Half Plate) planar array radar for air surveillance
One Bharat RAWL (Dutch Signaal LW08) radar for surface surveillance operating in D-band
Three MR-212/201 navigation radars, operating at I-band for navigation. All vessels are fitted with JRC SATCOM.

Sonar:

At least one ship is fitted with the Thales ATAS(adv. towed sonar array) and an indigenous HUMSA(hull mounted sonar array).

Weapons:

Primary Strike outfit AShCMs:


Sixteen 3M-24E (Kh-35 Uran or NATO: SS-N-25 Switchblade) AShMs, housed in four quadruple KT-184 launchers, angled at 30º, two on either side of the bridge superstructure. Equivalent to the Harpoon Block 1C AShM, these missiles have active radar homing (ARH) out to a range of 130 km at 0.9 Mach, with a 145 kg warhead. All 16 missiles can be ripple-fired in 2-3 second intervals. The Delhi Class will be retrofitted with the GLONASS-steered, land-attack 3M24E1 Uranium AShM at a later date. The 3M24E1 AShM - export variant of the 3M24M1 - has more fuel, which extends range to 250 km.


Air Defence:



In the air defence role, a pair of 3S-90 launchers - one installed forward of the bridge and the other atop the dual helicopter hangar - are fitted with the Shtil SAM system. The Shtil system comprises of the 9M38M1 (SA-N-7, navalised SA-11) missile and 24 such missiles are carried in a below-decks magazine. The launchers elevate up to 70º but have a limited firing arc of 30º within the centreline. The launcher groups require a crew of 20 men and weigh about 50 tons. Target tracking data is provided by the MR-775 Fregat MAE planar array radar which can engage up to 12 targets at ranges of 32 km. Target illumination and semi-active homing is provided via six MR-90 Orekh (NATO: Front Dome) illuminators, four mounted forward and two aft.

The 9M38M1 SAM, designated as Kashmir by the Indian Navy, is armed with a 70 kg high-explosive warhead, has a maximum speed of Mach 3 (830 m/s) and can manoeuvre up to 20 g. The missile can handle target aircrafts traveling at 420 to 830 m/s and incoming missiles moving at 330 to 830 m/s. The reaction time is 16 to 19 seconds and the advertised kill percentage is 81 to 96% for a two-missile salvo. Ranges against aircraft are 3 km to 32 km with altitudes from 15 metres to 15 km. Ranges against incoming missiles are 3.5 km to 12 km with altitudes from 10 metres to 10 km. The missile probably has a secondary anti-ship capability.


The ships also have the capability of firing the SS-N-15/16 ASW torpedoes from 533mm/600mm(?) torpedo tubes.

Two ships, reportedly the INS Delhi and INS Mysore have their AK-630M guns replaed by the BARAK-1 SAM System guided by EL/M-2221 STGR radars courtesy Israel.

The main gun is a 100mm AK-100

INS Delhi/Mysore/Mumbai: (Order unknown)

Ship1:

Ship2:

Ship3:



Online sources confirmed by offline ones quote around 100 SS-N-25 Missiles in service with the IN specifically meant for only the Delhi Class Destroyers as of 2001.
That is approx 2 missiles per launcher considering that this class offers 48 launch platforms. Another 150 are reportedly available for other ships.
Planeman, you can take this into your scoring calculations if you've considered another figure, because these are very accurate in a pessimistic sense at least.

I've found all ships on Google Earth at different locations on the western seaboard.



The Delhi Class are the largest warships ever to be built in India and primarily act as command and control platforms for task groups and as screening escorts for the aircraft carriers. INS Mumbai, is more advanced than the other two vessels in the Delhi Class though minor modifications are already taking place on INS Delhi and INS Mysore. These vessels are well suited for power projection roles in the Indian Ocean Region and are fully fitted with flag facilities. The Delhi Class is also capable of operating in a NBC environment and Radar-Cross-Section reduction is presumed to be minimal, to the extent that some sharp angles have been flattened.


A Comparision of Delhi Class and the Sovermeny-II Class Destroyers

Note the above comparision doesn't take into account upgrades like the BARAK-1 SAM system and the Thales ATAS(towed sonar).

Online Sources:
bharat-rakshak
Global Security
Naval-Technology


Proj 15A (Kolkata/Bangalore Class?):

Confirmed reports say that the first ship of Proj 15A
(which is a stealth advancement of Proj 15) has been launched on 30th June this year.It is to be commissioned 3 years from now.
Online Source

Proj 15A

Gauging by the timeframe of the Google Earth photos, I strongly feel this is that ship about a year back at its construction site.


Notice that from this view it looks structurally very similar to the Delhi Class
(which it is mostly supposed to be). The considerable differences will be the reduced angles on either side which cannot be observed from this view.

Note that the Delhi Class destroyers do NOT seem to be projected to bear the PJ-10 Brahmos, though its successor the Kolkata/Bangalore Class 15A definitely carries the same. Also this class has a greater tonnage(7000 approx) carrying more(double) BARAK-2 SAMs with indegenous inputs. Note Delhi Class carry BARAK-1 SAMs.

There are two more of Proj 15Alpha being constructed.

Next comes Rajput(Kashin II)Class...
Hopefully sooner than next weekend!



posted on Jul, 9 2006 @ 10:37 AM
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Planeman,

Nice job on the whole piece of work.

Did anyone else find the photo of the six Pakistani Frigates in harbor not very smart. I haven't studied how navies keep their ships in peacetime in harbor but shouldn't you space them out a little, just in case.

One good bombing run, since all 6 ships are within 3,000 ft. of each other would have a very good chance of wiping them all out. With the 3 ships that are stacked together, you might just need to sink the outer ship to pin the other two down.

Just seemed odd to dock them so close to eachother, can anyone give some insight?



posted on Jul, 9 2006 @ 11:11 AM
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Pavil, any pre-emptive surprise attack in today's scenario will almost certainly be caught
by early warning posts and necessary counter measures will be scrambled.
At least in India's case any non LO/VLO incursion will definitely be picked up and met by
MiG-21bis and/or Su30MKIs(increasing order of defence targets) which can be over target areas in under 5 mts if they go supersonic just after takeoff.Also these docked ships have Anti aircraft/missile SAMs that have ranges in excess of 100km and though dry dock/harbour launch maybe not be the best of things to do, it will suffice.
About Pakistan I don't know, but I'm sure they'll have a qualitatively/quantitatively scaled down version of the same defensive measures.

Summary:
Its very tough to execute a 'Pearl Harbour' these days, but then again, if you fly your maritime strike a/c only some 10s of feet ASL and you have a pre-emptive motive then anything's possible!



posted on Jul, 9 2006 @ 05:26 PM
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Thanks for the reply, like I said, I was unsure of modern military docking procedures. I noticed in some of the photo's India's ships are bunched as well.


Karachi harbor still seems quite in range of some of India's missiles if I am reading the ranges of them right. Also bunched up they seem more susceptible to a cruise missile strike that way (if India has them, again not my area of focus.). It is however relative peacetime between both nations, I sure if tensions were raised the ships would be arrayed differently.



posted on Jul, 9 2006 @ 09:44 PM
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Good debate guys. I haven't got time to go into it at any length but I noted how the Indian Viraat aircraft carrier is particularly vulnerable to x-craft type action. Pakistan has several Italian made swimmer vechicles (X-craft). The Pakistani navy in karachi is Slightly less vulnerable to the same.



posted on Jul, 9 2006 @ 10:22 PM
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Could you elaborate a little on that planeman? Pardon my ignorance but I'm unaware of what 'x-craft' are and have found very little from superficial google searches.



posted on Jul, 10 2006 @ 07:51 AM
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"X-craft" was a WW2 term used by the British to describe swimmer vehicles - true mini-subs where the crew (typically two frogmen) were carried externally. The basic concept was that these X-craft would be armed with limpet mines and infiltrate enemy harbours to attack ships. The Italian's pioneered this concept. Later British X-craft carried the crew internally and were used with some success in Norway and Singapore (against the Japanese).

These types of "swimmer delivery vehicle" are still used today by many navies and are generally associated with special forces like SEALs and SBS.

Whilst most people call them midget-subs or swimmer-delivery-vehicles, Pakistan uses the term "X-craft" and "Shallow Water Attack Submarine" (SWAS). There is public source data on Pakistan's Italian made MG110 X-craft. They are even mentioned on the Pakistani navy's official home page: www.paknavy.gov.pk... (note: the picture on that page is not of an X-craft). Another source: www.nti.org... and
www.hazegray.org... and www.globalsecurity.org...




[edit on 10-7-2006 by planeman]



posted on Jul, 10 2006 @ 08:57 AM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
Its very tough to execute a 'Pearl Harbour' these days, but then again, if you fly your maritime strike a/c only some 10s of feet ASL and you have a pre-emptive motive then anything's possible!


The Irony is (history lesson) that same port has been attacked in a surprise "Pearl Harbor" style raid before, by none other than India in the early 70s.

It was successful primarily due to the ships being dispersed, which made is easier for the Indian missile boats to locate targets.

The way those ships are tied up is very typical of harboring surface combatants, and while it does expose them to air bombing attack, it also protects them against missile attack, which is the higher risk.



posted on Jul, 10 2006 @ 10:57 AM
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Thanks for the insight Darksided. Does make sense that you protect yourself first from the most probable threat. Never thought about it much. Knew there had to be some reason for the configurations.



posted on Jul, 13 2006 @ 10:59 AM
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Great job planeman
. You've got a good system, but wouldnt training, tactics and experience be some of the most important factors (no point having great equipment if you cant use it effectively). While this would be nearly impossible to rate, somthing that does fit in with your rating sytem and is important are the targeting and detection equipment fitted out on the ships, planes, land based systems. However i think your rating system works very well in your aim of the displaying immediate firepower of navys.



posted on Jul, 13 2006 @ 11:51 AM
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Planman,

If I ever start my own country I will be sure to hire you as my recon specialist. I'll even pay you the cost of what a couple satellites take to launch as you do this with with just Google. Way to go.

Way above again for you.



posted on Jul, 13 2006 @ 02:43 PM
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Originally posted by the_sarge
Great job planeman
. You've got a good system, but wouldnt training, tactics and experience be some of the most important factors (no point having great equipment if you cant use it effectively). While this would be nearly impossible to rate, somthing that does fit in with your rating sytem and is important are the targeting and detection equipment fitted out on the ships, planes, land based systems.
I agree entirely but alas I lack the time for such an exercise. In general the Indian side have a massive targeting advantage. Both sides are relatively well trained. I guess nukes are the great equaliser but aside from that, I think Pakistan is way out gunned in almost every respect.


Pavil, only if i's a despotic tyranny and I can have a hireem.


[edit on 13-7-2006 by planeman]



posted on Jul, 15 2006 @ 04:40 AM
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Now for Rajput (Kashin II ) Class:

Rajput (Kashin II ) Class:

These missile destroyers are the second largest in the IN fleet weighing in a approx. 4000 tons.

Radar:

Indigenous Bharat RAWL and two ships have the Israeli EL/M-2238 STAR radar for Air surveillance.

Primary Surface Strike Outfit:



Four P-20M (SS-N-2D) AShMs, in single-tube launchers, with infra-red (Mod 2) homing to 45n miles; 83 km at 0.9 Mach. Becomes a sea skimmer at the end of run. Has a 513 kg warhead. The forward P-20M missile cells (port and starboard) aboard INS Rajput have been replaced with two boxed launchers housing four PJ-10 (BrahMos) ASCMs. D51 served as the trials platform for the missile, which can be fitted with a conventional or nuclear payload of 200 kg. The missile has a range of ~300 km at 14,000 metres or 120 km at 10 to 15 metres. The missile is believed to have a first stage solid-fuelled booster and a second stage liquid-fuelled ramjet.



Air Defence:


A pair of twin launchers is fitted with the S-125M (SA-N-1) SAM. This surface-to-air missile has a range of 17n miles; 31.5 km at Mach 2+. The missile has a 60 kg warhead weight and has a maximum altitude of 75,000 ft. The missiles, total of 44 on-board, have some surface-to-surface capability. Fire control is provided by two (NATO: Peel Group) radar at H/I-band frequency with a range of 40n miles (73 km).

One (or probably both) of the last two vessels have had a pair of their AK-630M gunmounts replaced with the Barak-I SAM system, with fire control provided by a pair of EL/M-2221 STGR radars


ASW:


Two RBU-6000 mortars with 12 tubes and a range of 6000 meters. The maximum target submarine engagement depth is 500 meters.

Has one helicopter pad in the aft of the vessel which carries the Ka-28 Helix-A. Can also carry the HAL Chetak helicopter if required.



Source:
Bharat-Rakshak


Reports claim that all vessels of this class will be refitted with the PJ-10 Brahmos:


The Navy has already fitted four two-tube missile launchers onboard INS Rajput, a Kashin class destroyer. All five warships of this class would get BrahMos.
Source




So currently:
16 Launch platforms for Styx
8 Launch Plaforms for Brahmos(INS Rajput)
All Styx platforms to be replaced by Brahmos platforms
Hence 40 Launch platforms(all PJ-10 Brahmos) for AShCMs after refits.
Currently 80 launch platforms for AShCMs.


I found all 5 ships on the eastern sea-board and judging by the timeframe of the Google Earth(IKONOS) sat pics, it seems like the 1st or the 4th one is indeed the INS Rajput out bound to test the Brahmos PJ-10.




Note that there are no future successors/modifications to this class. With a range of 3500 miles approx. at 25-30 knots, this class will mostly serve as the outer layer in a carrier strike group, and mostly never venture out alone in battle scenarios, except maybe for anti-piracy/terrorism Ops.

[edit on 15-7-2006 by Daedalus3]



posted on Jul, 16 2006 @ 02:34 AM
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Talwar (Krivak III) Class Frigates:

Notably the first true 'stealthy' warships with the IN.

Currently, 3 are serving with the IN , and recently a deal for 3 more has just been finalised.

Notably the sea endurance is only around a month or so and offline sources say that it can be stretched to 2 months.
With range of 3000-3500nm at 25 knots approx. These ships will also be a part of a carrier/carrier-less strike group though their LACM (3M-14E ballistic) capability and stealth makes them perfect for a 'cold start' campaign.

Instead of posting all ship details as excerpts as I have done before I am just going to give a source in which the info has confirmed offline.The BrahMos reports for this class have not yet been confirmed though with only one ship reportedly beeing fitted with them (INS Tabar).

Source


I found all 3 vessels on the western seaboard courtesty Google Earth.

BBC: Deal for modified Krivak III signed with more cruise missiles

Modified Krivak III

8 launchers for Klub-N SS-N-27 (3M14E)LACM per ship currently with one ship reported bieng refitted with PJ-10 BrahMos.

24 launch platforms in all currently.
Reportedly to be replaced with PJ-10 Brahmos AShCM(24 for 24?)

48 launch platforms in all in 5 years time(As per BBC report).It will be interesting to know what exactly those 28 new cruise missiles are all about.
Will the 48 platforms be all purely AShCM based or will there be a mix-n-match of the LACMs as well?

Next up :
IN submarine fleet.. next weekend?

[edit on 16-7-2006 by Daedalus3]



posted on Jul, 16 2006 @ 10:40 AM
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Superb analysis planeman. Have you taken India's nuclear subs and their nuclear SLBM delivery ability into account ?

Also, 2 new carriers (INS Virkamadithya-with Mig-29KI and ADS-with NavalTejas) are coming very shortly; the same is true for high end Maritime Patrol airplanes with anti sub capability in addition to updating existing ones extensively; BhraMos missiles (parhaps the best anti ship missiles ever made) are also being inducted into the IN in vary large numbers; the Indo-Israeli Barak-2 is on its way; a ship borne AWACS from USA is also likely; scorpenes are also on their way.

The reason why India is so far ahead is because the Indian Navy seeks and persues strategic parity with the Chinese navy, and not the paki navy.



posted on Jul, 16 2006 @ 10:43 AM
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Good stuff. I'd raise an eyebrow at the Talwar class being called stealthy but yes signiture reduction has been attempted.

When you say that there are 28 Talwar class platforms do you mean 28 vessels or 28 launch tubes?



posted on Jul, 17 2006 @ 02:05 AM
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Launch platforms..
so missile launchers..
28 vessels??!!!! gosh no..

Well yes the Talwar is not stealthy as in VLO stealth, but it has definite port/starboard hull finishings which have reduced angles.
Definitely not stealthy as the proposed DDX or that what was it?..Sea Shadow? ..Storm Shadow?..don't remember..
But then again not many vessels around the world are that stealthy anyways, are they?



posted on Jul, 17 2006 @ 06:31 AM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy
Superb analysis planeman. Have you taken India's nuclear subs and their nuclear SLBM delivery ability into account ?

huh?!
When did that happen?
If you're talking about the ATS and the Sagarika, thats not even commissioned as yet..



The reason why India is so far ahead is because the Indian Navy seeks and persues strategic parity with the Chinese navy, and not the paki navy.


The only strategic depth the PLAN had until recently was its SSBN/SSN capability. Now with the new destroyers and the soverymeny class ships it has some conventional depth..



posted on Jul, 22 2006 @ 07:22 AM
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IN Submarine Fleet:


SinghuGhosh(Kilo) Class Type 877EKM:

These SSKs are currently the best in the Indian navy, and with a range of 400 miles (dived), it gives the IN a decent coverage of its own coastline. These subs are deemed to be amongst the quietest in the world.
As per my investigations, currently 8(maybe 9) Kilo class subs are configured to fire the Klub-S AShCM, and all 10 will have that capability by mid-next year(07).
These boats are electronically slightly inferior(and a tad noisier) than the Type 636 Kilo subs China has/is acquiring.Though the present refits on all vessels of this type in the IN are bridging the gap in electronics, it is unknown whether these refits include 'quietening' measures as well.
It has been reported that at least one vessel of the ten is a 'Type 636 '.

Online Source

Shishumar (HDW 209)Class

These SSKs are also considerably modern, though they lack the now-popular AShCM capability.
Barring this, the Shishumar Class can hold its own as a SSK.
Reports indicate that this class is being seriously considered for the AIP suite. While a couple of these boats are confirmed to be in refit, if AIP is a part of the same is not known.
Online Source





[edit on 22-7-2006 by Daedalus3]





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